Hello, I just bred my wonderful female Golden Retreiver. The stud is a beautiful dog. She was on the tenth day of her season. I thought it might be a little soon as she was still discharging dark red yesterday, but I decided to go ahead and take her because the breeder said that the female won't let the male tye with her if she's not ready. This morning she wasn't as red but still a light strawberry. I take her back for a second breeding in two days. This is her second heat. And her first mating. She did great. She wasn't afraid at all and even coxed the male along. The tye lasted for 12 minutes. Is it possible that she tied with the male and wasn't ready. Or should I assume that she knew best and allowed him because she was. And if she was should I take her back tomorrow instead or is waiting 2 days okay.

I have rasied puppies before when we were breeding Springer Spanials, but I never really paid attention to when in the cycle they bred because we owned both male and female. I did take my female into the vet to make sure she was healthly enough to carry pups and the vet said she was in very good condition.

Also do you know if a dog can be on antibiactics when shes pregnant? She has a little redness to her ear today and I am watching it because she seems to be starting to shake her head a bit.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Firstly can I ask whether you carried out the correct hereditary checks prior to mating your bitch? Did you make sure that the Std dog had the required checks too? Making an assumption here, if this is your bitches second season (and thank god her first litter) then surely she was a little bit too young to mate? Even if she came in at 8 months for her first season this would make her quite immature even now.
With regards to giving any medication during pregnacy this is best taken under advisement from your vet.
Bec

Going by the way you say bred rather than mated I would guess you are in the USA.

Your bitch should be at least two years old bdfore having a litter, and should have her eyes passed under CERF and her Hips should have been xrayed and submitted for an OFA e3valuation. This cannot be done until she is two years old (though they will give a preliminary grading at 1 year that needs to be repeated to get final grading).

With this being only her second season I would guess that she hasn't been x-rayed. Golden retrievers are one of the breeds that has a higher than average level of Hip Dysplasia, and if you produce Dysplastic pups you are likely to be sued.

A responsible Stud Dog owner will have told you all this, and if they haven't then I would also not have much faith in his owner having relevant health clearances, and having high standards where breeding is concerned.

Please read the articl in the following Link: http://www.bluegrace.com/virtualbreeding.html

You are correct I am in the United States. According to the books that I've read and the information furnished to me by our vet. The second and third season is the best time and safest time to breed a Golden Retriever. The complete book of Golden Retrievers also states this as truth. The Golden Retrievers Book by James E. Walsh, Jr. also states the 2nd or 3rd season to be the best. Second....the breeder is well known in our area and the line that we bred with has not had any Hip Dysplasia in thier background. The stud has been scored and his age is 3. He is the sire of a champion. Hes was picked to bring out the deficientcies in my female. She is 18 months. She has been x-rayed and I have a signed certificate from our vet that she has passed all necessary requirements of the Breeder. The form was provided to me by the breeder and required before they would help me find the stud. My dog has a thinner snout and a leaner frame, we matched her with one of thier males that was stronger musciled. Both temperments were generally the same Head, eye and teeth comparisons were made to bring out the best in the breed. They also have ancestors in common within the last three generations. We have confidence with this breeder as we have purchased dogs in the past from them and found them to be of the highest standards.

I would also like to say that it appears that this is not a site to get guidence from. I would respectfully suggest that there are people just like you that do try to the best of thier ability to get the right information and have some sort of guidence from people with experience. I had hoped I had found that site. I was so excited to have found a place to further my knowledge and ask questions that are hard to get straight answers for. I can't tell you how many times I check back on the board to see if anyone had answered yet. I understand the need to have your pet spayed or nutered. As I have many times as well as catching and imunizing stays in our area and spaying them when they don't even belong to me. I also have the right to decide to have a litter if I so choose. Just as you. For you to just assume that I am undeserving or under educated about the process is pretty irritating. Not one question I asked was even answered other then check with your vet for medicine.

If you really want to help animals I might suggest to you that you do your accusational statments before the mating. After the mating has already taken place it would be nice to give a little direction. It can go a long way. The book "The Book of the Bitch" is a wonderful tool, how about suggesting something like that instead..........

If you understand at all what I'm trying to relay here then please take another look at my questions and reconsider from a point of mentor instead of director. Thank you for reading this. Debbie Dew

Welcome to the forum Debbie :-)

Hi Debbie,
Sorry if you're offended. This is a problem with sites being global rather than national - things are done differently in different countries! For instance, in the UK most of the breed clubs (for the larger breeds especially) are very disapproving of people who mate bitches under the age of two - in fact for some clubs that is grounds for expulsion.

The "Book of the Bitch" is certainly excellent, and recommended many times on this site. Another good book is "Dogs and How to Breed Them" by Hilary Harmer. Also full of valuable information.

The advice given regarding antibiotics is standard - we are not vets! They are the ones who have done the years of training and are best qualified to answer this. It would be foolish to advise when we don't know what condition the antibiotics are being given for!

I hope this explains things - please feel free to ask away - you should be able to teach us something too!!
:)

Jean, thank you for your response I really do appreciate it. I will look into the book "Dogs and How to Breed Them". Although this is the only litter we are planning to have, I can't get to miuch information that's for sure.

I am going to ask again. Anyone who may be able to comment on this I would really appreciate it. My dog was Bred (mated) Sunday which was her 10th day of cycle. The tie was good lasting for 12 minutes. The question, she is still bleeding light red, yet she accepted the male. Does anyone know if that means she was ready. I have heard that the female will not except the male and that the tie won't take place if she is not ready. I was wondering if that is and old wifes tale or not. I realize that it does not mean she's definately pregnant just because they tied. But I believe it means she most likely is. Do you know if that's correct?

My bitches have always shown colour all through their seasons, whether mated or not. It made no difference as to whether they became pregnant or not. They have all been very variable as to which day they will "stand" - one would stand on day 10, another wouldn't stand till day 18 (both produced satisfactory litters). If your bitch was willing to stand for the dog, then I would say she was ready. It would do no harm to mate her again 48 hours after the first, if you wanted to be certain.

I've noticed with my bitches that they seem to come "out of season" quicker if they conceive than if they "miss", so that might be a guide in the next couple of weeks.

Hope this helps. :)

Thank you again Jean, we are taking her back Tuesday for a second mating.

Hi dede

A bitch will sometimes stand for a dog before they are actually ovulating, but as the sperm from the dog will live inside the bitch for at least 48 hours, if she ovulates within two days of being mated she can still conceive.

I feel it would be a good idea to have a second mating as she is now showing a lighter colour of discharge, which tome indicates that she is about to ovulate. If she is showing lighter colour today then I would say tomorrow (Tuesday) would be the best time for a second mating.

When bitches come to my dog I usually suggest that they return for a second mating two days after the first, but that is their decision.

hi.sorry i'm not about to be condescending or to give you advice.there seems to be enough self proclaimed "experts" out there as it is.All I want to say to you is good luck with the puppies when they inevitably arrive.
have just bred my first litter of lab retreivers and everything went perfectly well.they were from fully hip and eye tested parents and were absolutely beautiful, healthy and strong.they have all gone to their new carefully vetted homes now, and the delighted new owners keep in touch on a regular basis.
when my bitch was pregant i looked on this iste for advice and was almost scared to ask questions, due to the hostility to newcomers from the so caled establuished breeders.I know there are lots of charlaatans out there, but if anyone wants to makea quick buck they wont do it from dog breeding.
good luck and enjoy the next four months. ps the book of the bitch is absolutely brill, informative and down to earth.

<<there seems to be enough self proclaimed "experts" out there as it is>>

Some of us have been around for a little while Miloos. We try to answer questions to the best of our abilities.

<<when my bitch was pregant i looked on this iste for advice and was almost scared to ask questions, due to the hostility to newcomers from the so caled establuished breeders>>

As, according to your profile, this is your first post on this board I'm not quite sure what you mean?

Its posts like this make you scared to reply when advice needed

I still don't see the posters problem with the negative response to her breeding from her bitch too young. In USA the Hips cannot be officially rated until two years old. I am sure Dede loves her dog, so why hurry her into motherhood, she could just as easily have left it another year or two???

She admits that she is primarily a pet, so would it not be fairer to ensure that the bitch had matured and proved to be healthy. At this age she may well not show the first signs of eye disease,or hip problems.

The whole point of breeding is to produce sound and healthy stock and therefore all the tools availablae to help in this should be used!!!

The poster admits they bred quite a few litters from their springers, by the sound enough litters to have learnt about the basic responses and mechanics of mating. She also stated that she bred on alternate seasons, rather than I bred two or three litters from each bitch. It begs the question how many litters does dede think is reasonable to breed from a bitch. My own breed club insists a bitch not have more than four litters in her lifetime, and most breeders would take two or three!

Here is a Link to our breed code of ethics. This is a breed smaller than the Golden, and similar codes are written by most breed clubs here and in USA http://hometown.aol.com/brelkclub/ethics.html

I repeat the old books may have advised breeding on second and third seasons, but things were different then, perhaps it was this breeding so young that allowed some of the health problems to get a hold, as they had bred and passed these on before it was realised they were affected? Knowing breeders who have been breeding up to 50 years, the main reason for mating bitches this young was the rush to ensure the next generation in case disease took your breeding stock. this is not the case now.

Okay, let me clear things up. I was not a breeder in the way of a professional breeder. I had 2 females and 1 male springer. I bred a total of 4 litters between all the dogs and let my male stud someone elses female once. For someone who is not a breeder that is a lot of litters. That was about 15 years or so ago. After reading some of the posts I was interested as well as scared about the age of my dog. After some information was given about older books and so on. I looked at the dates of the books I had check out of the library as well as some I had bought on line. And you are all correct the books were from late 1980's and before. I had not recieved the book of the bitch at that time yet. Since your posts I have done further checking and have found that the newer books do recommend waiting for the dog to be two years. And I wish I had, however at the time the information I had and did research lead me to believe that 18 months was a safe time. I was not in a hurry, but I was excited and had planned this mating since the morning I called my vet on the day I had set up for her to be spayed when she was 6 months old. When I got up I don't know why but I just started crying my eyes out and I couldn't go through with the spay. I called my husband at work and we decided to let her have 1 litter. I started getting books right away, I contacted the breeder for which I had purchased a golden retreiver for my youngest daughter a few years before who at the time was 20. When she moved out she took her dog which broke my heart because I loved her and of course my daughter too. On my next birthday my daughter and her boyfriend bought me Nugget the Golden that I have now from the same breeder. She is more then a pet to me. I love her. That's why I tried to find out all about it. When I first posted my question I was so excited. I guess I am just use to people being helpful instead of so insinuating. I found myself having to justify to you who I was, what I was doing and what my motives were before I ever got a single response that even sounded like a fellow animal lover who was interested in my dog and helping me. Maybe you who are professionals just assume that we all know everything, but we have to learn which I assume at some time you also had to do as well. I hope that you will think about that next time your respond so that the person who post a question can get quidence from the start. If someone had wrote something like. " I see that you have bred your dog, you mentioned that you had information from some of your books that state that 18 months is a safe time. You may want to check some of the more recent studies as you will find that the belief is no longer followed. It has been found that 2 years is much safer. Here are some books that can help you out on that."........ If I had received something like that. I would have check right away and not taking Nugget for a second mating. I was not in a hurry. But instead of getting guiendance I found myself defending my right to have a litter of puppies. And swearing that I had had her checked, and so on and so on. Now she's bred and I'm just praying to God that she will be okay. And that she will have a healthy litter. Because thats were I am in the process. Now I'm afraid because she's bred. Instead of excited. Thank you to all of you that have given me guidence. And I will let you know what happens

Hope it all goes well for you. :)

I am not sure what you mean by Proffesional breeder, certainly I hope not someone who breeds for commercial gain. If you mean that they approach breeding in a Proffesional manner aiming to do things corrrectly, then I must say anyone contemplating breeding a litter should be 'Proffesional'. It is no comfort if through not doing enough research puppies with Hip Dysplasia or inherited eye problems are produced.

I do not blame you in the least for this, but it would appear you have not had the best Guidance and advice, as your vet certainly should have known the requirements of CERF and OFA, and told you that the hips cannot be given OFA certification until two years of age.

I too understand the excitement of a first litter, having only bred from my second bith 8 years ago. I had to shelve the idea of breeding from my first bitch, due to her sister being diagnosed epileptic, so she was spayed.

I changed breeds when she died and bred my first litter when she was nearly 3 years old. I had spent the previous two years researching her ancestors and bugging her breeder about compatible bloodlines. I started showing her when she was 19 months old, and she did reasonably well, and I was assured that she was good enough to breed from. Her litter brother had just become a Champion, so the pedigree seemed worth perpetuating also. I had her Hips x-rayed her eyes tested, and then had a lovely litter of four :D

Since then I have realised what an awesome responsibility one carries for the creation of sentient life forms, and that one owes them the very best possible life, which includes doing all possible to try and breed healthy sound typical examples, that will make the best possible companions, and lead a long trouble free life. Sadly even when one does all one can, nature being unpredictable pups with problems can still be produced, but at least ones concience is clear that one did ones best.

The above applies whether one breeds ones one and only litter, or plans to found a canine dynasty.

I hope you have a trouble free whelping. :D

Thank you and I agree, we all hope for heathly pups and should do the best job possible in obtaining that. No more breeding until all is checked out all the way and at least 2 years old. Although I don't plan on doing it again, if I should ever decided too I appreciate what I have learned. I am suprised my vet didn't suggest that I waited too. I think maybe I should call him. He is the owner of the vet hospital that we go to. It's not just a clinic either. He has always been so good to us and with our pets that I wish he would have spoken out about it. I would have wanted to know the truth. But he never said a thing. Other then she checked out great. I know I had x-rays done and blood work and they checked for infection in her discharge, took her temp., they looked at her eyes but they didn't do a scan on them. They really worked her over with there hands though, I felt pretty confident when I left.

Also just let me add that no I didn't mean someone who breeds for money when I said a proffesional breeder, I meant someone who breeds with Extremly good knowledge. Who has had experience first hand and knows what they are talking about.

An awesome responsibility is right as far as breeding and going through the whelping. I look forward to asking for more guidence as the days pass on. And once again thank you

Dede I am not sure quite how the OFA and CERF schemes work in USA, but it is probably the same as here. Eyes have to be checked by a canine Optrhalmologist on a panel, and then a Certificate is issued which in USA will say CERF (probqbly the full title of the organisation). The Hip z-rays are taken by the vet, and also have to be submitted to a panel of Orthopaedic experts. Your local vet is usually just a general practitioner, and not an expert, but of course he may also be on the eye panel, and able to give eye test certificates, but hips in most countries are definately sent away. The ones she had taken can still be sent to OFA for a preliminary assessment, which is worth doing even now, as it will give you and the puppy owners something to go on. To get a final grade though another x=ray would have to be done after two.

It soesn't seem to be as popular in USA, but many here have their bitches scqanned to confirm pregnancy at around 30 days after mating. Bitches can though still absorb until about 40 days.

Hello,
I am also in the States, and I assure you, responsible breeders, especially in breeds with high incidence of CHD, do NOT breed before 2 years and OFA clearance- the number of seasons is immaterial.
I personally did not see anything offensive in the replies. A helpful article was provided.
As for your original question Dede, some bitches will stand throughout, some only when ovulating. Surely the stud owner could tell you this. You DO trust them, right?
TiaLee

Accually TiaLee the stud owner is the one who told me that the bitch would not stand before ovulating. So I thought I would get other responses just to double check.
Also did you read the article that was provided? It pertained to not having puppies and assumed you were doing it for the fun of it and had no idea of the risk to the bitch. Not exaclly along the same lines as my questions. I've already made the decision of puppies. But Thanks

Thanks for confirming what I have been told. This is certainly true for my breed, most people waiting until nearer 3 years than two to breed from a bitch. After all what is the hurry? The old advice of second or third season was relevant in the days when breeders wished to ensure the continuation of their line as soon as possible, as disease used to take a large toll of Young stock, with many a kennel being wiped out more than once with one of the canine diseases.

In this day and age there really is no reason in large breeds to breed from them so young. It is in fact much wiser to wait until fuill maturity as this will allow many of the hereditary faulst that may be present time to show themselves. Several eye diseases do not show up until 2 or 3 years of age or older, as well as some metabolic problems. Some breeders I know will go so far as only mating their 3 year old bitches to old Studs, thereby ensuring at least one side has proven good health into old age.

Hi Dede
Welcome to the forum and I think it is a shame that you have received a barage of "you should haves" rather than a reply to the question you asked.
In my experiance of breeding (10 years) a bitch wont allow a dog to mate (breed) her until she is ready and often a stud will not try and mate a bitch unless she is ready, so I dont think you have any problems there.
My bitch had a ear infection whilst she was pregnant and was treated with antibiotic ear drops but I should see you vet he will be able to advise much better.
Good luck and I hope you get a lovely litter.
keep in touch and let us know how many little bundles your girl has
best wishes Kate

Kate, Thank you so much for you information. I really do appreciate it. We love our dog so much and I have never in all the years of my life seen a dog so wonderful with children as our dog Nugget. We have 3 grandchildren age 12, 9 and 4 and she loves them so much. Her dispostion with them is remarkable. When she was only 6 months old and introduced to a handicapped child, who could only roll around on the ground, he couldn't even sit up only roll around laying flat on the ground, he had brain damage when he was born by having a low heart beat for too long. Anyway, our dog never even being around someone with challenges before loved that kid, the boy could roll all over the dog and pull tuffs of his hair and bang into him and Nugget only proceeded to lick his face. Nugget walked so carefully around him and always watched him. If the boy got close to the stairs Nugget would get between him and whatever danger may be lurking. She never jumped up on him which is her biggest problem, she only played with him and let him play with her. And then as I've watch her with my grandchildren I can see that she is an exceptional dog with children. Taking the risk of losing her, should something go wrong was a very difficult decision. Once made I was already nervous just taking her to the stud. I spent hours on the internet looking up sites to help with extra information. I can't tell you how many books we've read and how many books I've bought off ebay and checked out from the library, There is a lot of informaiton, but nothing regarding whether a bitch will stand for a stud if she is not ready. Because she is still bleeding so much and still red, I just thought it odd that she allowed the stud to tie with her. Anyway, I take her back this morning for a second mating and I hope she will except him again. We have rasied many many litters of springer spaniel puppies 15 years or so ago. We owned both bitchs and the stud so most of the time the biggest problem was just keeping the stud from the females in the inbetween seasons as we always skipped a season between breedings. Anyway I have not ever taken a dog to a stud and really never planned on it before now. It's just that Nuggets temperment is so outstanding, her features so good, and then to top it off a see and I handler was so impressed with her she told me that see would make a wonderful See and I dog because of her temperment and how intelligent she is. We decided I'm sure for selfish reasons to breed her. Everyone in our family's, I come from a family of 54 just sister, brothers, nieces and nephews alone, and my husband comes from a family of 5 everyone loves Nugget and wants a dog like her. I don't know how many puppies she will have but we have already found good homes for 12 and I don't even know if shes bred yet. I can also tell you I hope to God that I am doing the right thing.because I love her so much. Debbie

Hi dede
your intentions are obviously very good as far as this litter is concerned and I think temperament is very important sadly in some breeds i feel breeders consontrate so much on breeeding show standard dogs they lose sight of the fact that we all have to live with them!(no offence everyone before you bite my head off, I accept that with all good breeders this is also a prime concern)
Good luck with your litter and did you manage to get her mated(bred) again today?
bye Kate

Yes, we are very lucky she mated again today. They were tied within the first 3 minutes if you can believe it. She seems like she knows more about what's going on then I do.
Thank you everyone. I'll let you know down the road if she is indeed bred. Kate, what breed of dog do you raise?

Hi Dede
Im pleased that she bred again for you and I hope you soon have some happy, Healthy puppies around
I breed Vizsla`s and Labradors not many though only 2/3 litters a year all our dogs are working dogs and we find it very hard to time breeding litters with the shooting season, I need all my dogs out ,fit and working during the shooting season not at home tucked up playing mummy!!

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