Hi all, just found this.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/view.html?get=8413
Christine, Spain.

That's interesting - I've never been able to work out why dogs have to have yearly boosters - why can't immunisations last longer as they obviously do with children.
My vet says part of the vaccine does give immunity for two years, but then lepto only lasts 12 months. My dogs now have the part vaccine every two years, and the full vaccine the year in between. But I still wonder if it's too much. One problem I have is that the dogs sometimes go into boarding kennels, and they won't take them unless vaccinated yearly.
Hilda

Hi Hilda,
I also get concerned about boosting the dogs, but when my doctor explained that people need regular boosters against many diseases as well (they don't last forever) I became a lot less worried. I have had routinely boosted dogs live to 15 years of age (where breed average is 12), and the only dog we had who wasn't vaccinated (many years ago) died of hardpad. It's a case of weighing up the risks. Never easy.

Just out of interest, Jean, do you know which human diseases the doctor was referring to ? I can't recall having any regular 'boosters' for anything !!

Tetanus, for a start, should be repeated every 10 years (or every 2 years if you work in certain occupations, ie horse, agriculture, horticulture etc). The smallpox vaccine we were given as children apparently only lasted about 10 years, too. My son had the usual "baby" course of injections, boosted at school entry, and at age 15....it seems that 10 years is about the maximum protection time for all of them.

I believe at one time tetanus had to be given yearly & almost overnight it was changed to every 10 yrs. Was that when they realised it gave longer immunity.
Christine, Spain.

I can't remember it ever being given yearly (I know I didn't have it that often!) but could easily be wrong. I think it got extended mainly for cost, but also because so few people are at high risk of getting it, with the modern "townie-type" lifestyle.

Really not interested in discussing tetanus & smallpox, those 2 diseases are not what dogs are routinely vaccinated against! The fact still remains that there is undisputed research that states it is not necessary to booster dogs & also there was never any scientific evidence/research that the recommendations where based on.
Christine, Spain.

Sorry, Christine. :(
Hilda asked me what diseases my doctor told me people should be boostered for, so I was replying to her. Sorry if I bored you.

Jean, it was me not Hilda who asked about the human boosters. Sorry if I complicated things !!

Joyce

My mistake!! :D

You didn`t bore me at all J/genie :) I`d rather stick to what I know & I haven`t researched enough about smallpox or tetanus (except tetanus in dogs, which is quite rare, although does occur). But I have read near enough a library on dog vacc/boosters :) :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Jeangenie,

The current thinkig on Tetanus is that is you have had five in a lifetime, then you have lifelong immunity and don't need anymore unless you have a particularly tetanus prone wound, IE: Sticking a garden fork through your foot, etc.
These are the guideline we use in general practice.

Ruth

There is undisputed research that proves a lot of vaccines give life long immunity & the harm done by over vaccination to animals. The manufacturers themselves state this. Also once an animal has had certain diseases they will have life long immunity so there is no reason whatsoever to vaccinate them ever again against the diseases they may have had. Most of the Veterinary Teaching Unuiversities in the states have changed their vacc protocol to 3 years
I certainly would be very worried & less inclined to trust any vet that told me it was necessary for me to booster my dogs annualy.
Christine, Spain.

Interesting topic! It does seem odd to have to boost immunity as regularly as we are advised to. Our dogs are initially vaccinated in order to enable them to produce sufficient levels of antibodies to protect them against exposure to specific disease causing bugs. But surely, once they have this protection, then every time they are infected by said bugs, the antibodies already present prevent the infection from taking hold, while exposure to the disease automatically boosts the immune system into 'upping' production of the required antibodies anyway (does that make sense?). The dogs protection is naturally 'boosted' every time the immune system is challenged, so surely 'artificial' boosters are only needed if you live in total isolation, or in an area where there is absolutely no history of the disease you are boosting against. In which case, why vaccinate in the first place?
I wonder if the antibody titre of vaccinated animals has been examined to see how it falls over time, and whether the rate of fall is dependant on the incidence of exposure to challenge? And is it just antibody production that is lost, while the ability to recognise (and therefore quickly upregulate antibody production for) a disease antigen, remains?
I find that often, vets (and doctors) tend to treat us 'peasants' as if we are thick as a whale omlette, and have no chance of understanding why they 'have' to do anything, so won't bother to explain unless we practically pin them down and give 'em the third degree.
Sorry, thinking aloud again, don't mind my waffle :-)

I have just had this dilemma.My four year old bitch is going back to ringcraft and has to have her jabs up to date. She was five months past the annual due date. I had decided to give her a long break between boosters but need her done for ringcraft. I decided that whatever the vet said I was only having the boosters not the full course again. As I had expected he said that most of the immunity had gone and that she should have the full course again. I said that I only wanted the boosters and a heated discusssion developed, with him offering me literature explaining his feelings.The only thing was that the literature is produced by the vaccine company!He also said that she should have the combined boosters plus a sepetate lepto jab 2 weeks later as the booster would not be enough immunty as her immunity had waned too low to boost with the combination booster. Three of my other dogs are in this position.Around our proerty we have large dykes and I have seen rats in the garden, so obviouslt lepto is a risk. Question is what do I do? I do not believe in boosting every year but the vet tells me that not is putting the dogs at risk!
Diane

Hi Diane,
If you have rats in the garden it is definitely worth boosting against lepto - from what I've heard (and a friend went to the expense of having her dogs titre-levels measured for a few years, just for her own satisfaction) the resistance to lepto wanes very quickly - one year her dogs had no measureable resistance after 9 months.

There was an article/letter about this is one of the monthly dog magazines recently. I'll see if I can find it.

Hi Diane,
I've now found the article (in the March issue of Your Dog magazine).

This particular vet says that most vets will allow a margin on one or two months after the dog's booster was due, but any longer than that, the booster on its own may not be effective. I suppose if just a booster is given and the dog catches one of the viruses the vet is afraid of being sued.

The letter itself was about kennelling dogs whose vaccinations weren't up to date, which is slightly different to your problem.

We mustn't forget the amount of profit made from yearly boosters. It is a significant part of a practices income. And not in the interests of the drug company to admit they are not required as regularly.

I stopped going yearly when my old dog had bad reactions. The puppy has had his 1st and will probably have a second, but after that..........

I'm lucky in that I have a friendly kennel, and will also accept homeopathic alternatives.

I know 2 people whose dogs have had a vaccine reaction; the dogs were both Cockers, one a Working Cocker.

I try to follow information about vaccines, and the pros and cons, but get very frustrated with the confusion. I have given my BAnya her first boosters, but from now on will probably go for the titre testing. At least that will give me some idea :) I tend to agree about the Lepto, I too have heard that it is the one vaccination which does not last for too long, as far as they know anyway......

Lindsay

Hi all, yes this topic of should we shouldn`t we booster every yr can get confusing when most vets are advocating it. The thing is, there is a growing body of vets & immunologists who are now questioning it & also the damage it is doing to the immune system of our pet animals. This info is out there but you have to look for it & it can take ages! I have read enough to believe they are right & I no longer booster. In fact those 2 dogs have onlt ever had a first puppy shot & then one for adno & distemper. They will never have any other vacc again. Re Lepto, it was the one I was told not to give my 2 young dogs as it was the one most likely to cause reaction. We should all read as much as we can about it before making an informed choice of whether or not to vaccinate or booster.
Here is a pretty good link.
http://www.doglogic.com/vaccinemain.htm
I have a few good articles by Dodds, Day, Schultz & Carmichael, some of them are long & some are not on the net but if anyone is interested I can send them as an attchment. :)
Christine, Spain.

Thanks Christine, this is a good topic, and you provided a lot of great info. Lots to think about.....

Carissa

Hi J/Genie, just saw this post & would like to clarify about vets being afraid of being sued if the vaccines aren’t effective. It doesn’t work like that at all. The manufacturers give out product information leaflets with the vacc & they ALL state that
"Some animals my be immunologically incompetent & fail to respond to vaccination (see further information).
A good immune response is reliant on the reaction of an immunogenic agent & a fully competent immune system. Immunogenicity of the vaccine antigen will be reduced by poor storage or inappropriate administration. Immunocompetance of the animal may be compromised by a variety of factors, including poor health, nutritional status, genetic factors, concurrent drug therapy & stress." That is taken from the book NOAH compendium of Data Sheets for Vet Products 2001. It was also what Merial explained to me in great detail, before I got the book. And what it means is if a vaccine fails to give protection or causes any disease both the vets & manufacturers have a let out! It is virtually impossible to prove the vacc was at fault & they know that & that’s why you don’t see vets being sued for it. As for suing the manufacturers, you’d have to be a billionaire! Although it’s common practise of manuf. to offer some sort of recompense & you sign an agreement along the lines of *They accept no responsibility etc & you will say no more about it*. Ask any doctor or vet or manufacturer & they will tell you that vaccines are not %100 effective & when the vac’s fail they have so many reasons/excuses to fall back on it’s not true! You cannot sue a vet for the failure or an adverse reaction of a vaccine. I know this from personal experience. Now then, should a vet be aware of specific breeds of animals that are known be susceptible to vacs???? Of course they should & if I know the breeds that can be affected, then so should they. Should they be telling more animal owners of the dangers, you bet they should!!!!! One of the other things stated on the contra indications is that *Only Healthy Animals should be vaccinated*. Now how many vets are vaccinating/boostering animals that are on drugs, have allergies, stressed out maybe from going into rescue etc? That is against what the manufacturers specifically state NOT to do. With all the info coming out now I think it may well be only a matter of time before someone who has had their animal boostered yearly on advice of the vet & has an adverse reaction occur in their animal, will sue them. Quite rightly too.
Christine, Spain.

Re - training classes etc

I have found that some training classes are becoming better educated. If I show a current test for antibody titre to show they have sufficient levels of antibody in their system, they seem to be happy. Actually, they couldn't really argue with it.

I myself am a little confused about lepto vaccinations, as I have been told that the immunity only lasts about 3 months anyway; certainly not for a year even if you do have your yearly boosters. Anyone know differently?

It may be only my inkling, but in flatcoats, those dogs which have had yearly boosters certainly appear to have a lot more problems with autoimmunity etc etc than those who choose to do antibody titres. Hope I'm not tempting Providence here.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo, no they can`t argue with the titres can they?! :)
Re the Lepto, don`t think the experts know themselves cos there are several bacterias that can cause this disease. Couple of links below explain how it works.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm
http://www.labbies.com/immun.htm

Haven`t seen a mention of the flatcoats being predisposed yet but here is a list from some of the breeds known to have probs, by Dr Dodds. The Golden is in there & Labs are known to suffer with skin probs. so you are probably right about boosters in the f/coats.

"the more commonly recognised predisposed breeds were the Akita, American Cocker Spaniel, German Shepherd Dog, Golden Retriever, Irish Setter, Great Dane, Kerry Blue Terrier and all Dachshund and Poodle varieties; but predisposition was found especially in the Standard Poodle, Long-Haired Dachshund, Old English Sheepdog, Scottish Terrier, Shetland Sheepdog, Shih Tzu, Vizsla, and Weimaraner, as well as breeds of white or predominantly white coat color or with coat color dilution (e.g., blue and fawn Doberman Pinschers, the merle Collie, Australian Shepherd, Shetland Sheepdog, and harlequin Great Dane) (1-3). Recently, other investigators have noted the relatively high frequency of AIHA, ITP or both in American Cocker Spaniels (10) and Old English Sheepdogs (13)."

Christine, Spain.

Agreed! We all seem to get the 'you WILL have an annual booster' speech from our vets. And yet the veterinary products committee working group report on feline and canine vaccinations (Gaskell et al (2002), Vet. Rec. 150, p126-134) recommends (among other things) that vaccine product literature should indicate that the booster regime is based on minimum duration of immunity rather than the probable or maximum duration, and that a risk/benefit assessment should be made for each individual animal by the vet in consultation with the owner for each vaccine and the frequency of its use. Particularly important in dogs which show adverse reactions, I'd have thought. So, has anyone ever had such a consultation with their vet? Mine is very much a 'yearly booster' man (although he's a decent vet and does a good job). The concensus of published opinion on vaccination frequency seems to suggest that 3-5 year intervals are adequate for everything other than lepto, but I guess this hasn't filtered down to the 'vet on the street', or the manufacturer with an eye on his profit margin.

(oops, sorry, this was replying to Christine further up the thread, can't get the hang of this replying in the right place lark!)

Hi Jenna, looks like we read the same kind of stuff eh? :) :) I`ve read that report by the vpc but judging by posts on here & other boards the recommendations aren`t coming thru & I wander just what on earth is the point of them if a lot of vets don`t bother to read or follow thru with them!! When will they listen or is it going to take a court action before they sit up & take notice??
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine and all,

I personally don't favour annual boosters. :-)

One problem that is there if you choose not to do it you run into a few problems, dog insurance is one but hopefully you could argue the case that the Company would only be exempt from paying problems caused by viruses that the booster may have dealt with. If you get my drift. There are also still probs with Kennels, shows and ringcraft classes. Hopefully as time and knowledge is gained these problems will be alleviated.

Pam

Hi Pam, I`ve read posts on other boards from people with insured dogs that say the insurance companies are OK about not vacinating the animals & have a clause saying the dogs won`t be covered for any of the diseases it`s not vacc. against. You can find some info below, it`s the alternative vet web site run by Chris Day & he says that there are kennels accepting certificates from them for alternative methods :) Might be worth a look :) :) Lets hope all this info gets out sooner rather than later cos I really believe the damage done to the immune system is being passed on to future generations.
http://www.alternativevet.org/vaccination.pdf

Christine, Spain.

Just wanted to add my thoughts to this interesting thread :-)

I have 2 weimaraners. 1 is immune deficient, possibly caused by her puppy vaccinations but I can't prove this as it all came to light years ago. My bitch was vaccinated in the usual way 2 separate combination puppy jabs, we never got her boosted because of her immune problems, however she gets vaccinated yearly with lepto as it is a killed vaccine (slightly safer) and she gets homeopathic vaccines too. We've never had her titre tested for 3 years now and don't plan to because no matter what the results are we can't risk giving her a modified live vaccine even if we wanted to.

My other weimar had his puppy jabs all split up. My breeder is really up to speed on vaccines and various reactions. She did a lot of research and found evidence that by giving the parvo vaccine separate from the Hepatitis & Distemper vaccine reduced the risks of reactions. Note that my weimar's dam had an exceptionally high titre level to Parvo, her result was in the thousands, the lab suggested she had immunity for life!

When it came to his booster time I opted to have him vaccinated against lepto as I had spoken to many people including my vet who had all said that this vaccine didn't give immunity for much longer than 9 months. I then got his titre levels checked for Parvo, Hepatitis and Distemper. Imagine my surprise when his results came back saying he had very little protection to Parvo, his Hepatitis protection was high and he had no immunity to Distemper. We then gave him the rest of the booster and 4 weeks later tested his titre levels again. Couldn't check for Distemper as there wasn't enough serum however his Parvo came back with a protective titre of 640, not high but high enough.

What we think happened was because his dam had such a high titre to Parvo he would have had a lot of her antibodies and when we vaccinated him with Parvo these antibodies killed the vaccine. Because these are maternal antibodies they don't last and surprisingly even though he is taken to many shows up and down the country his immune system had not been challenged with Parvo !!

So shortly he will be going for another titre test to help her decide whether or not to boost. I wouldn't normally titre test again however I want to see if his parvo immunity in particular has lasted.

I will let you know the results when we do the test in the next few weeks. My vet also advised me that the drug company said the Hepatitis vaccine should last 3 years and so no need to boost for Hep every year!

Isn't this all very reminisscent of the arguments of MMR in babies - split them and you are OK, do them as a job lot and you can have problems??

The vet i use has said that if they haven't been vaccinated every year they HAVE to have the full monty again, they can't just have the booster.

Out of curiosity what is a titre test (my vet has never even mentioned it) and how much does it cost?

Hi chirstine , Claire & everyone,

I have luckily not had direct problems well except the 50p bald patch that won't grow back on one of my dogs but the logic of it all tells me something is not right.

Love to see it all come together Christine. I think as people we are standing up and making noise which is being noticed. I have had hundreds of Barf enquires recently the interest in this is growing amazingly.

A few years ago most people said "Barf what is that never heard of it" > to> "Barf heard of it and interested". Hopefully the vaccines will got the same way.

I think like Doctors and Lawyers , we give a " on a pedestal" approach to vets or at least we used to.

What really changed my view on professions is when I did my LLB in law after which I was required to do 2 years service/training allowing me to practice as a lawyer on my own with the knowledge and skills I learned at UNI but I know that apart from the common principles like most I would need to get out my case books and text books. Like doctors and vets what is in the books is regarded as gospel but we know that is not the case it is only that it has not been looked and or studied from a different angle.

Sorry to digress but it was my point of saying we are moving forward thankfully and should be open and optimistic about new ideas and also study all the side affects also. Look at Thalidomide , need I say more.

Sorry for going off topic slightly.... :-)

Pam

Pam

I'm with Pet Protect. If you see my other posting you will read that I can't vaccinate my bitch due to immune problems. I spoke to Pet Protect about this and because she had her puppy jabs and is now given homeopathic vaccines they would still be happy to pay up if she suffered a disease that would normally be vaccinated against :-) Can't say it is the same for every dog but this is what they told me in my situation.

HTH

I guess that vets qualify knowing what is 'current' at the time - it's then up to them to keep up to date with the latest research, and I suppose the proportion of vets that are sufficiently interested in the whys and wherefores of vaccination to keep up to date is not huge. It's only in the last few years that this debate has really opened up, and I guess the 'vet on the street' is going to wait for the advice to come through from his supplier, so that his own a**e is covered in the event of a problem (cynical? who, me :-) ? ). Can't comment on the reaction problems, all of my dogs have so far not suffered adversely from vaccination (touch wood), but I do remember something about aluminium based adjuvants used in the injections being implicated in some cases (anyone else know anything about that, or did I just make it up?). I guess the research on booster frequency will be slow coming through, given the timescales involved and the implications for herd immunity.

Hi Julia (hope I'm addressing the right person!) - the titre test measures the amount of antibody against a disease that is circulating in the dogs blood, a high titer means a high level of protection, so no need for a booster at that point. They are not routinely offered, generally only in cases where an adverse reaction to the vaccine has been noted, where you wouldn't want to vaccinate unnecessarily. No idea how much they cost though!

The titre test I got done covered Parvo, Hepatitis and Distemper. It cost me £45 and results took 2 weeks.

They are not routinely offered because a lot of vets think they are a waste of time :rolleyes: obviously because it is giving you info that could help you decide not to give a booster! My vet thankfully does not think I am wasting my time and happily supports me :-)

HTH. :-)

Hi all, well what a response :) Hopefully with us lot spouting off about it more people will become aware & thats great! :) Jenna here`s a piece about what can go into the adjuvants, by S Brigola.
"Some or all of the following may be in that vial of vaccine:
Thimerosal (mercury preservative)
Aluminium sulfate (vaccine adjuvant)
Formalin (a germicide)
Formalin may not show up as an ingredient; formalin is used extensively to inactivate the viruses used in the production of vaccines. It is a 37% solution of gaseous formaldehyde, a substance so toxic the "Environmental Protection Agency has labelled it both a hazardous substance and a hazardous waste." The irony of a poison like formaldehyde being used to protect us from the deadly part of a vaccine is noted by author Jamie Murphy: "Here we have a chemical formaldehyde, designated by the EPA as a hazardous substance and waste, being used by scientists to make a vaccine safe."

Thimersol is added as a preservative/antimicrobial agent to "prevent the growth of extraneous, unwanted bacteria and yet not harm the bacterial or viral antigens in the vaccine. A delicate balancing act, indeed! Not enough , and we run the risk of injecting bacterial growth and an undetermined vaccine potency. Too much and the vaccine antigens could themselves be destroyed, resulting in a dangerous injection of antimicrobials and other chemicals.
Thimersol has been found to prevent a process called phagocytosis "in which white blood cells called leukocytes ingest foreign micro-organisms, thereby protecting host cells from invaders."

Aluminium is suspected in a wide range of neurological disorders. It was found to be carcinogenic in mice as a vaccine adjuvant; it is also suspected to be a contributing factor in injection site cysts and granulomas and may be a contributing factor in cancers and arthritis as well."

Christine, Spain.

hello jenna,
1 of my dogs (northern inuit) had a bad reaction to his puppy jab and he went blind in one eye (his whole eye went white) and the vet who did the jab said it was because of the aluminium in the jab.
It's known as 'blue eye'? and I only know of 1 other (a GSD) that has suffered the same affect.

My own vet (he did not vaccinate him cause I bought him blind) said that he will always be blind in that eye now. But we love him even if he shouts at us a lot! LOL

i had my puppys vaccinated but then my male shepherd got tetanus(previoulsy wrote about this) which they do not jab for.this was a distressing time as we almost lost him.our vet said we were unlucky as it was rare for a dog to get this,they think it was caused by a hay seed going in under his due claw!!??

Hi Inuit & Vicki, vacc unfortunately can & do cause diseases they are supposed to prevent & also all kinds of other illnesses/disease & most of us find this out afterwards sadly. Thats why I feel it`s so important for all of us who own animals to be aware of these dangers & we need to know all these things before we vaccinate our pets.
Christine, Spain.