Hi, who else is interested in the concept of outcrossing?  There is a formal programme in the Netherlands for outcrossing in the Wetterhoun (Frisian or Dutch Water Dog).  It starts with a suitable pairing of a Wetterhoun female with a male of another breed.  Then suitable puppies are assessed and mated with unrelated pure Wetterhouns.  By the 4th generation, the puppies are essentially back to full Wetterhouns and are registered as such with the Dutch Kennel Club. Previous generations are also registered, but have a prefix to indicate their origin.  The Dutch Kennel Club requires DNA testing of parents and puppies so that the pedigrees are secure.  There are two benefits of an outcross programme.  Firstly the additional genetic information lowers the COI of future generations, although this benefit is lost by 5 generations.  Secondly it increases the effective population size and therefore the total number of dogs that enter the breeding population.  The Wetterhoun only has around 1000 individuals worldwide and breeding is only allowed when the predicted COI is lower than 35%. This will be with no common ancestors over 5 generations!  Breeding is subject to the advice of the Dutch Association for the Stabyhoun and Wetterhoun (NVSW) and puppies are homed via a central waiting list. The breeding committee has an extensive database on Zooeasy which documents pedigree, health, size and formal assessments. In the UK the breeds are supported by the UK Stabyoun and Wetterhoun Association.  The first outcross was with a Black Labrador - Carpenny Scenario - and there are 61 offspring in this line.  Since then there have been further outcrosses in their programme, including with a second labrador, Poodle, Airedale, Barbet, West Siberian Laika, and the most recent is with an Irish Water Spaniel.  It takes a huge effort and coordination to achieve these results, congratulations to NVSW!

I'm a big fan.  I'd love to see it happen in dobermanns for the DCM issue although realistically, not enough is known about it for outcrossing to actually be useful, yet.  But as it's in all lines,  and the breed has multiple health issues and a ton of overbreeding and BYBnig happening constantly, outcrossing is the only realistic solution for DCM IMO.

Plus, breed standards are based on physical characteristics only; there is no genetic requirement so I don't get the whole uproar over purity that comes up when it's discussed.  All breeds started out as crosses and with careful planning as you've described, it's not long at all before you're back to breed standard dogs that breed true as per the standard.

The Wetterhoun program sounds really well planned and carried out!

They did something similar in Boxers crossing with corgis to breed a natural bobtail. With the advent of the docking ban it was no longer necessary but here is a link to articles. Dr Bruce Cattanach who pioneered the scheme was a Boxer breeder and well respected geneticist
http://www.steynmere.co.uk/GENETICS.html

Annoying typo, too late to edit - UK Stabyhoun and Wetterhoun Association

>with careful planning as you've described, it's not long at all before you're back to breed standard dogs that breed true as per the standard.

It can, in some breeds, take a long time. With the Dalmatian/pointer cross (to reintoduce the LUA gene) in 1973, descendents of this cross were distinguishable by eye until the 2010s, and some even today; that's at least 20 generations.

With the Wetterhoun outcross/backcross the aim is not to introduce a single gene that was lost from the population, but to increase the effective population size of a rare breed.  The Wetterhoun is a healthy breed, nearly lost during the Second World War in the Friesland province of the Netherlands.  The Wetterhoun population does have a recessive gene for SCID.  All dogs are tested and carriers are only permitted to breed with dogs that are clear.  In theory the gene could be eliminated, but this approach would be deleterious to genetic diversity of the population.

It happened with Bassets when after the second WW, the gene pool was much depleted.  Outcrossing to Bloodhounds was done, with the first generations bred back into Bassets.   Unfortunately there is some indication that epilepsy was picked up through Bloodhounds, a condition we see today (and which caused me to end my bloodline as the outside sire, and his dam, were affected later on in life)  Although neither of the two puppies we kept from the litter (and they were nice) developed epilepsy and I didn't hear from the owners of any of those we sold, I felt the buck had to stop somewhere.  Good job I was pretty much at the end of my breeding plans - it would have been a disaster otherwise.  I refused stud enquiries for the male, and I had his sister spayed, without issue.

There was also a suggestion that breeders picked up GDV (bloat with torsion) - it's there in Bloodhounds.

> It can, in some breeds, take a long time. With the Dalmatian/pointer cross (to reintoduce the LUA gene) in 1973, descendents of this cross were distinguishable by eye until the 2010s, and some even today; that's at least 20 generations.

But did they fit the standard?

Is gdv now thought to have genetic component?

>But did they fit the standard?

None did for several generations; it's only been in the last 20 years or so that a decent proportion has been indistinguishable after about 4 or 5 months. Even now, in the nest, with a mixed litterof LUAs and HUAs it's pretyy easy to determine whethr or not they've inherited the gene, with confirmation following DNA tsting at about 5 or 6 weeks.

It depends on the outcross for the Wetterhoun, how quickly the next generations become wetterhoun-like in appearance.  Within 4 generations the labrador line should be indistinguishable.  The breed standard allows for a lot of variation in size.

The Breed Records for Bassets during the time outcrossing to Bloodhounds was done, shows the registration of the puppies from those matings, as being just that - the result of outcross matings.  The good news was that said matings quickly went back into Bassets, and in turn, the resulting litters did quite quickly look like Bassets and bred true - not that apart from the legs, they were that much different!

Interestingly, even today we still very occasionally get Bassets with longer legs.   We had one in an all English mating (done out in Canada).  They didn't look abnormal as puppies but one owner brought a puppy back to visit some years later and I was surprised (if not rather horrified) to see how on the leg she was.  In fact that couple tried to suggest she wasn't 'purebred'!!  Awkward.