HI has anyone else noticed the increasing amount of puppies being bred out of parents with hip scores above the breed mean score? also the number of dogs stranding at stud with higher than mean score hips i find this very worrying do you all think im over reacting?

I wonder which breeds you're talking about particularly. You may find that in breeds that are multi-disciplined, such as many of the gundog breeds, a dog may have excelled in more than one sphere, and proved that his/her genes were worth passing on. In this case a little leniency may be allowed on hip scores, as a dog's worth must be taken as that of the whole dog, not just a set of hip scores.

One just hopes that in such instances breeders will have enough knowledge to try to balance out any weaknesses with strengths in the mate. It is important to bear in mind any weakness in subsequent generations.

I find no excuse in breeding from dogs with higher than average scores who have never achieved anything.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

If the breed average score is low, and there have been few high scores in the breed, then using otherwise excellent specimins that are above the breed mean score would not worry me, especially if it is compensated for by breeding to mates with better than average scores.

A score of say up to 20 would be a functionally good hip, and I would use a dog up to that level in my breed where the average is 13 or 14 and the range has been 0 to 61. The majority of my breed (around 80%odd score better than 20).

If this was a breed where the average score was in the mid twenties, and a lot of very high scores were recorded, then I wopuld not be happy using a dog with higher than average score, but if few dogs score well in the breed, then would have to take the best available, and work to tighten up on the criteria I set myself each generation.

The one "professional" breeder I know won't use a lab with a total score of more than 10.

The other two from whom I got my two working labs both used well scored dogs (under 10 each time), with good history, but it didn't stop one of my dogs turning out 34/21.

It goes without saying (I hope) that I won't be breeding from him even though he is brilliant with a lovely temprement.

Hi everyone im going to really put a spanner in the works here -
there is never a good reason for breeding from a dog with higher than average hips
you are not improving the breed even if the dog is a top show champion we must remember these are working gundogs we are talking about who`s hips have to stand up to a long days shooting/beating ect.. not just poncing round a show ring once a week.
I am well aware im going to ruffle a lot of feathers with this one and no offence ment to the showing community I understamnd many of there dogs are also duel purpose.
we should be aiming to improve the health of our dogs by only breeding from low scored stock not breeding pretty cripples!!!!

But 50 years ago, there weren't such things as hipscores and dogs were probably worked more than they were now! Hip dysplasia would've been rife then but nobody even knew it existed! Hips are one small part of a dog and if a dog excels in conformation in all other parts, then if it is slightly above average why not breed from it? I would place temperament way above any hip score.

hi Lilymunster
"you would place temperament above any hip score"

Personally I would require my dogs to be BOTH sound in temperament and health before I bred with them! If one or the other wasnt 100% the dog shouldn`t be bred from.
And the reason hip scoring was introduced is to prevent future problems ,the dogs of the old days were all shot if they were no good and people would think nothing of working a lame dog! we live in the year 2003 not fifty years ago and should be striving to produce healthier ,and sounder stock not giving excusses for using unhealthy specimens for our gain.
Im sorry if this offends but I feel very strongley about this and some one who disregards the mean scores and carries on regardless obviously has nio interest in the FUTURE of the breed and shouldn`t be breeding at all.

Deary me, what side of bed did you get out of today????? :(

Surely there's more to a dog than a pair of hips?

Yes of course we want the hips to be good, along with the eyes, the hearing, the heart and all the rest. But if you have, for the sake of discussion, a labrador which meets the breed standard in every other way, is a good, reliable worker (and so is not affected by HD), and has a wonderful temperament to boot, the fact that his hips might be a bit over average pales in comparison.

Just my opinion, and not trying to start a 'heated debate'. :)

A baby & bath water situation.

Not sure what "old" days you are talking about Kao but we never shot our dogs 50 years ago I can assure you.

Hips! What is bad and what is good? On a score of 30 which is made of a 4 and a 26 which hip is the real score? A Labrador with say, a score of 19 with sire, dam, grand sires and grand dams of 10 or less, (Lab average is 16), Would you say this dog, being a beautiful working or show dog, should be used or not?

I was talking to a breeder a few years ago who's scores were always worst than she felt the dogs she was using should produce. The scores were not disastrous, just not as god as expected. It took a time for her to realise that the floor in the room where she kept the puppies was just slippery enough to put a slight strain on the hip. She changed her flooring and at a stroke improved her hip scores! Some hips have very obvious accidental damage. Others are damaged but not so obviously.

A Flatcoat, (Average 9) could quite easily take a slightly above average stud dog with no ill effects to the breed whereas a Clumber (Average 42) most definitely cannot if the Clumber people desire to improve on their scores.

One last point, the guest may feel that people are using dogs with higher scores but the figures really do not bear this out. I don't think that the breed averages have changed by more that the odd decimal point over the last few years. Labs are pretty much the same, Goldens are about one point better, Flatcoats have I believe improved by two decimal points!

Regards, John

Thank you to the 3 'J's!!! :D All have put into words what I wanted to say!

Sorry lilly munster I obviously seem to have offended you it was never ment to be personal!
Can I just stress at no point was I saying hips scores are the only thing we should be looking at during our selection of breeding stock I only mentioned hips because that was what the thread was about!!!
Equally I dont think we should be disregarding them either.
Hips are a small but very important part of a dogs make up and there seems little point in taking the trouble to test the hips if we then ignore the results! even if as you said John in the case of the slippy flooring it means changing our enviroment.
Let me give you a example from our breed (Vizslas) the mean score for our breed is 12 but I know of at least two stud dogs standing with hips of 19 and 18 theese dog are top quality dogs in every way but should we be encouraging the upward trend?
I know the mean score for our breed is low and hips of 18/19 shouldnt present a problem as long as they were even as possible but what im trying and to say and making a right pigs ear of! is if we keep breeding from stock over the mean score surely the quality of hips will get worse as the years go on?
And finally Im glad you didnt shoot your old lame working dogs 50 years ago John but many did and sadly still do!

As long as the owners of those stud dogs are only accepting bitches with below breed mean scores to their dogs, and offspring that score better than the sires are retained it will not increase the mean scores.

Malcolm willis wrote a very interesting reply to someone who thought improvement in hips had not occured or was occuring too slowly by comparing the mean scores some years ago with the mean now.

He made the very valid statistical point that loking at it that way disguised the true picture.

The real comparioson to see if improvement was fgoing on was to compare the mean scores in generations.

If you take the mean of dogs scored in say five year increments hopefully you will notice that there is a general improvement.

He demonstrated this using data for Newfoundlands.

I am going to do this for our breed out of sheer curiosity. Sadly with a numerically small breed the data may be inconclusive as not enough dogs are sored in any year, five year perios, and our breed has only been scoring all breeding stock owned by breed club members for the last 10 years.

Hi Brainless
Thankyou for that you have made some very interesting points there.
It is nice that some of the people on this forum seem so well informed I would be very intersted to know if there is any litreture out there on this subject as so far all i have managed to kick up is the BVA site wich explains procedures and results but not alot about the genetics involved
As a breeder I have always done my best to ensure the puppies we produce are healthy,good examples of the breed and would hate to be responsible for introducing problems so I have always been very cautious by the sound of the other posts maybe over cautious but you always try to do your best .
We have only owned this breed for 7 years and still have alot to learn! but when we bought our first dog hipscores didnt seem to be a issue wether we just found a breeder that didnt score or if this was pretty general I dont know .

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the average score for cocker spaniels. And when they say an average total, does that mean both hips should be below half of that or that the total of both should add up to less than that? if that makes any sense!?!

Range: 2 - 89. BMS 15. The total score is both hips added together. Ideally,you should be looking at total scores below the BMS. Welcome to the forum :-)

thanks

Kao, just curious by why haven't you got any hips scores or clear eye certificates listed on your breeder page?

Hi Admin sorry I didnt know that when I took out a membership with you it gave you the right to discuss personal details across this forum and for you to tell me what I should or should not put on my Page?? else I wouldnt of bothered!!
I do not have my hips scores on my page because I feel it is unnessesary many people that contact me dont know the mean score or what the scores actually mean so it is easier to speak to people and explain.
I will however be adding our stud dogs score I hadnt realised it wasnt on there so thankyou for bring that to my attention.
And finally IF this was ment as a little dig to say that maybe my dogs arent scored you are way of track and very out of order

Calm down. No not a dig in any shape or form Kate. It was a simple question as to why you had not included the information. It is a selling point in your favour after all. Breeders requested that we include a field so that hip scores and clear eye certificates could be included for their breeding stock. You have strong opinions on this subject so I was curious as to why you have decided not to use the facility, nothing more nothing less. If you were unaware that the facility to include this information was available then that would explain it. If you look at your stud dog page you will see both fields are clearly visible. Obviously, you do not have to include such information but I know from experience that the general public are becoming more aware of such tests, and will be looking for visible signs that the dogs have been tested. HTH :-)

Ok admin
I guess im feeling a little touchy about this subject I feel like im out on a limb here
Il try not to take things so personally in future!!!

Admin

you say the public are becoming more aware.......but do they know what it means? My experience says NO. They are told to ask about hip scores,, health schemes etc, but do not understand.

For all breeders out there please remember hips are not everything! Too many breeds are breeding from poor stock because they have good hips and are ruining theie beloved breeds.

The BVA publications departent do excellent leaflets and articles on the health schemes, and mympuppy owners are always give thes with their puppy.

On hips there is the in dpth one which explains exactly what each number on each feature means9This I give people who are already in dogs) and there is one explaining the basics for those who aren't into veterinary science. The same with the eyes, there is a leflet that covers all the conditions, and one shorter. the two shorter ones are reprints of articles in You and Your Vet and are entitled dog owners guide to Hip Dysplasia/Eye disease, I think.

The BVA will send them to you in batchesof 10 free of charge.

Thankyou for that brainless
Most people who contact me regarding puppies ask if the parents are are hip scored but never ask the actual score, and I often get people asking if the puppies are scored and when I try to explain that puppies arent scored some of them get quite shirty ! I always try to explain there scores to them and what each point is for but I think most people lose interest after the first sentance!!
It would be very usefull to be able to give them some litreture that explained it all that they can refer back to at a later date there so much to take in when looking at a puppy

Kao, when you have been in a breed 14+ years, like I have, you learn to get a VERY thick skin! You'll gain it with a few more years experience!

You must be nearly as old as me Lily! :p

SOWWEEEEEEEEEE

Hi John, out of interest, I know on a previous thread we've talked about knowing hip scores not just for breeding but also for working our labs. At what score would you decide not to work a dog?
Lorna

Number one, Stop worrying Lorna, I just know everything will be fine!!!!

As the answer to your question, I don't think there is one! It would depend on so many things.
I would not consider trialling with poor hips say over 12/12 because I would not be in control of what the dog would have to do. I know of several Goldens with only average scores (around 20) who have no problems at all but I also know a 28 who is beginning to have trouble after about five years in the field (The dog is about 6.5 years old). This dog has been working on big shoots a couple of times a week. The shoot I pick up on is small to medium size and I only pick up once a week max. The shoot is almost level ground and with most fences I could get Anna under if needed so there would be very little jumping which she would really need to do. From that you could see that I could get away with a poorer score than a more hilly shoot, possibly with dry stone walls.

I think the real answer is to be aware of the score and to try to work around it. A dog with a less than perfect score could still work providing care is taken. I have seen dogs beating on my shoot who by the end of the day have literally run their legs off where as Anna, picking up, has spent most of the day sat beside me with maybe 20 to 30 retrieves to complete. She's a dog who loves to jump and knowing that her hips are good I can let her indulge herself.

Best wishes, John

A few more years to go until I catch up with you John!!!!! ;)

Sorry Lily, I know you to be the "Bright Young Thing" against my "Doddering Old Fool"!