I have a 21 month old male, in tact GSP. For the most part, he is a wonderful dog. I take him out daily in the fields and woods near where I live, which he absolutely loves. He will roam fairly widely, as the breed likes to do, but will continually come back and check in with me. I'll play with him with sticks and balls and also give him time to explore on his own. I don't work him though.

His recall is generally very good... up to the point at which he thinks I want to leave. Then he turns into an absolute nightmare! Despite whistles, treats, toys, he will not come back. He stays close and follows me but will not get close enough for me to put him on the lead. As soon as he gets it into his head, he won't let go of the idea that I'm trying to catch him. I put him on a long training lead, but now he's learnt that he just needs to stay a bit further away from me so I can't get him. On a good day, I'll put him back on the lead well before we get back to the car. But he's increasingly aware of this. And it doesn't feel right that I need to catch him unawares to put him on the lead.

It's becoming a big problem. I love walking him and I'm happy to do so, but sometimes I'm out there for an extra half hour or 45 minutes, trying to catch him and can only do so with the help of another dog walker.

I try not to be too angry when I do finally get him (which is hard) and to reward him for finally being caught so that he has a positive association, but that doesn't help.

I'm reaching my wits end. Would an e-collar help? Would having him neutered help? Do I need to be firmer in my relationship with him? I feel like I need to go right back to basics with his training because this has become an ingrained habit.

Any ideas welcome. Thank you!

If it was me I'd stop letting him off the lead if he's not reliable. Use the long lead but keep ahold of it so he can explore at bit and work on his recall again.

When mine played up like that, like the time my girl jumped out the boot as I was opening it and wouldn't come back, i made a game of it once it was clear she was doing the staying just out of reach trick I instead ran from her calling her.

Definitely not any sort of e collar it could cause more issues than it solves . This is a training issue
There is no harm in going back to basics but make sure you are consistent in what you want. Agree with Jo I would have him on a harness and long line until his recall is sound. Keep recalling him and treating him all through the walk not just when you are leaving.
Not that this will solve his recall bit  don't forget as well as ohysical exercise he needs mental exercise . Games ,  finding things etc when at home is also good for helping to keep him happy and calm .
Maybe you could find time to take up a dog sport. Agility perhaps he is old enough now. Don't be tempted to neuter him if anyone mentions it as it won't solve your problems. As he gets old you may decide to but imo leave until he is older

One of your main problems is that he has learned that 'lead on = end of walk'   things you could try :-

Don't let him off as soon as he is out of the car, different place each time.
Touch his collar EVERY time he comes to check in with you.
Call him back and lead on just a few minutes after letting him off, walk a few yards and let him off again, repeat and repeat and repeat giving a treat or game with ball every time he comes back but cut down the 'freeby' games when he isn't called.
When he is staying just out of reach SIT DOWN or even lay down, ignore him as much as you can (obviously watch him without looking straight at him) dogs reaction is normally 'what on earth is Mum doing now!' I need to investigate!' - even rattle treat bag or 'investigate' patch of leaves or bits on floor without actively trying to attract him, when he does come to you fuss him but don't immediately grab and put lead on.

PS sticks are NOT a good idea to throw for games.
I try not to be too angry when I do finally get him (which is hard) - Make sure you have a 'happy good boy voice' and you can swear, curse and call him all sorts of names but he will take it as praise! just be careful of any passers-by within earshot :-)

Interesting.   Number one, NOT any kind of e collar ...... or a harness which is another of my no-nos.  But also another subject.   This takes me right back to once, when out over the local fields with our small pack, they managed to flush a small herd of deer out of a ditch.   I'd not seen them so it was a case of stopping them from chasing which bless them, they all did (stop) bar our youngest bitch who at 9 months, took off after them baying her head off.   I took the rest home while my husband took off after her.  Going back (after warning the passing gamekeeper that we had a loose one) to see what was going on, thankfully I met with my husband and Canuck, grinning her head off.  She'd back-tracked.  

After that, I kept her on a lead for quite some time before risking letting her off again with the others, and bringing her back to me, praising her, and instead of putting her back on her lead, letting her go off again.  That way she didn't get the idea that she came back to me = onto her lead.  She never tried this again.

So I think you probably need to use the lead/long line, bringing him back to you but letting him go away again.

Castration isn't going to help with this.   The ONLY guarantee with castration is no puppies.  It's all about training I'm afraid so if you were to castrate, you'll most probably be disappointed.

ps   Just to add re the coming back to check - puts me in mind of one of our hounds we were field trialling out in Canada.   He'd do this like a good boy, looking for reassurance, EXCEPT this was a no-no for field trialling LOL.

Just for interest mamabas why no harness? If he is on a long line a harness is a must imo to prevent injuries to his neck . Personnaly I prefer a harness if the dog pulls at all Properly fitted and I use the ones with a ring on the chest and back to stop the dog using it like pulling a sledge
Without that second ring on the chesf many will put their shoulders in to it and drag you along . I was amazed when u used this qith both of mine the difference was amazing.  I am much more in contro
I appreciate ir may be different for your breed l

As a geriatric Beagle owner - I feel your pain!  Here are some of my most successful tips.
Make use of local Freedom Fields to play and practice his recall in safety. Take a good supply of small but high value treats with you to throw out and then reward for coming back to you. Sharing with a dog friend which does have a good recall can be useful too.
I use the word 'collar' when I want my girl to stand still while I attach her lead. You can easily train this in the house using intermittent rewards.
I never let her off lead unless I am (98%) confident that she will return, learn to read the mood that he is in. In an open area I don't allow mine to get too near the hedgerows, (wild life!), and often will have her trailing a long line that I can step on if necessary. Reward, reward, reward, these high energy explorers, and never let them know that you are annoyed with them.

> Just for interest mamabas why no harness?

I don't understand where all this use of harnesses came from and no, they are not easily fitted on a Basset but that's beside the point.   I've watched too many programmes with dogs wearing harnesses, and tugging ahead of their owners rather than walking nicely alongside, to be convinced they do nothing other than perhaps prevent the dog's neck from being hurt when they keep tugging ahead.   Which wouldn't happen if the dog is trained not to pull, at all!   I'm talking about Wood Green where all their dogs wear harnesses, and in their kennels too - don't they ever take them off? - but they are doing nother other than promoting pulling.   Thank goodness that many dog have these removed when rehomed!!

I used a long line to train my Whippet to come when called (hum!) and made darned sure she didn't run to the end of the line, risking injury to her fragile neck!

Not personal, but like pee pads, I do wonder whether some of these 'aids' are just a lazy way out, for too many people.  

When Mo came to us, he wasn't great at walking nicely on his collar and lead, but with persistence this was achieved and he now walks on a loose lead (most of the time).

> like the time my girl jumped out the boot as I was opening it and wouldn't come back

Oh boy, does that bring me back to Mo jumping out of the car as I was shutting the tailgate and belting out of the vet's carpark, down the lane and into the traffic in the middle of town.    I don't think I'll ever forget that.  Calling him Mo doesn't help because Mo .... NO!!    We now have a retaining lead fitted to the back seat anchor on that side so once in, I pass his lead to Rob at a rear passenger door, to hold while I hook him onto that short lead so he can't get to the tailgate without one of us having him on his walking lead.  And for added insurance, his ramp lies across the width of the car, just inside the tailgate when stored.

I agree that a lot of harnesses u see encourage pulling . The subtle difference to me is the extra ring on the chest. It allows you to control the dog if it does pull much loke a horse and reins .
I would guess wood green have their harnesses on for TV and hopefully not all the time . Yes putting a single ring harness on does encourage pulling unless you are training at the same time
Mine have only ever worn them when going out .
I know a long line which has been necessary at times that they have suddenly seem a squirrel or similar and charge off. Perhaps a good stop ! Command would be useful
. If that had been on a collar I can only imagine the possibility of damage.
Yes you are right although not said directly amd no offense taken I should have got a good recall and the ability to always walk to heel sorted. Sadly not .my fault I know

I obviously don't know where you live, but I would suggest using a "Dog Field" until you have trained a reliable recall & release.

Some dog fields have a wooded area & toys like tunnels & tyres to play around.

No problem with using a long line, but it must be used with a well fitting harness, way too dangerous used on a collar. You might want to use a Biothane line as they don't absorb water. Not the cheapest but they last a lifetime

I would also recommend you training the releash at home, it's fairly simple. Done in short sessions, call your dog to you indoors & outdoors at home, armed with some high value rewards, touch the collar & reward whilst holding the collar, if your dog knows a sit even better as you can teach a formal recall & sit Infront, reward holding the collar & again when clipping on the leash & after 30 secs release.

a long line left on for a start then when he is lurking closeish you can bring him in -and reward.
main thing is don't wait till you want to go to get him back. get him back, hand in collar, reward, release. repeat a LOT so he never knows which one is going home time. and don't make the going home recall at the same spot every time or that will be a spot he never comes back. make it fun, make the rewards high value that he doesn't get for anything else, if necessary keep him a bit hungry for a while as you reinstall recall to make those super treats even more desirable,  I used baked liver on my first weimaraner when she was a youngster who thought she could play the no go back game. stinky horribly hard baked liver in tiny fragments was very tempting,  I just bought some lambs liver, minced it up and baked it hard in a low oven till really dry.  she only got those very high value stinking treats for recall , never for anything else and they were tiny

not being rude but is he getting a LOT of exercise, these dogs need a hell of a lot and if he isn't get it he will be naughtier about going home.

ps no e=collar. unnecessary and may back fire and make things worse.

Oh yes - lamb liver ..... I've not baked any of that for literally years now, but when I used to, I'd have an audience round the oven waiting for it to be ready!   And I used it when showing...... imagine a nice jacket pocket!!!   I had to use a plastic bag in a pocket or, if left lying around, it was all too easy for  them to try biting the pocket out ................ 

ps  FF I really wasn't trying to criticise you personally re harnesses (or pee pads )

No no I realise that mb
All good . I  avoid pee pads or was that for me !!!!

I am hoping the op is also playing mental games to tire him out not just mad runs in the woods. Making them think ie scent work is really exhausting. Maybe some mantrailing or join a group for scent work but obvious recall is a priority

I’m a proud harness user. I trained my papillon to walk nicely whatever he’s wearing, but there are multiple reasons why I choose a good well-fitted Y-shaped harness for ordinary walks.

Small dogs are more prone to tracheal collapse. It’s not worth the risk - he doesn’t pull but I can’t guarantee that nothing will ever happen that puts enough pressure on his neck to cause a debilitating condition.

We like to do impromptu dog parkour on walks, and a harness for safety and support is essential. If he’s on a collar, we can’t play.

Lifting him quickly by the lead on a harness has saved him from dog attacks several times. Grabbing him when he’s under threat like that is very risky, he’d be terrified and I might hurt him. I certainly couldn’t lift him as fast.

Even if I didn’t use it for the lead, I’d still use one for his flat ID tag. His collar of course has one as well, but he’s tiny with a ruff of long hair on his neck and anyone finding him would need to fiddle about with his collar trying to find it. Not a happy time for a nervous dog. A tag on his harness can be read without touching him.

And similarly, while we’ve worked hard on “collar grab” and attaching/detaching lead and he’s done very well, he’s very much more comfortable and relaxed if the lead goes on/off the harness. Messing with his neck is far more involved and difficult for both him and me than using the back harness clip.

I do very much dislike the H-shaped harnesses like the ubiquitous Julius K9 which restricts movement and can be backed out of. River’s is a Y-shaped Perfect Fit which is sized exactly for him, has a strap going from the chest to the belly between the front legs, it’s padded with fleece, the chest strap sits well clear of his elbows, nothing restricts his shoulders.

I use perfect fit now. Did mekuti which worked well until brooke decoded she wouldn't have things iver her head. I think I know why but its a tricky story . Yes I would recommend perfect fit and that u can buy it in pieces to get a good fit

Thanks for the tips

You really need the help of a breed specific trainer on a one to one basis as they will be able to spot where you`re going wrong.  Its worthwhile investing in this as you will have him for another 10years hopefully and a dog that has a poor recall is so frustrating. Let me know whereabouts you are and I will point you in the right direction. I had a female GSP who would take off after a scent but always came straight back after she had investigated...unlike my friends male GSP :0)

Best wishes.