I came across this yesterday https://bullywatch.link/2023/08/01/finding-kimbo/  all about the breeding of XL bullies and it is an interesting read on the genetic component in the recent rise in dog attacks in this type/breed of dog.  genetic bottle neck of the founding dogs in UK and it appears a notorious animal is in most ancestry

Read the above with rising sense of horror and anger. These dogs should be banned. Why would anyone, particularly with children, want such dogs in the first place. Quite apart from the threat they pose to life and limb they are ugly and menacing in appearance.. There is clearly money to be made in the breeding of these creatures and doubtless they will be used by criminals to threaten others.
But...what happened to that breeding law of a few years ago? Did it not promise regulation of breeding ? Well , whatever, but the breed should be on the banned list and owners fined/imprisoned for ownership/ breeding.

The trouble with banning a breed is, as happened with Pit Bulls, those who are into macho dogs will just breed with another breed, making for a whole grey area as to what exactly the breed is.  

For sure, it horrifies me too, but I will still stick with ban the deed, not the breed.   And it might almost be a case of banning the breedERS!!

Personally I do NOT believe in "deed not breed" because a) a large, powerful dog can cause so much more injury than a small dog, and b) temperament is to a huge amount genetic. (And before anyone says they know of a tiny dog that killed a baby, yes sure accidents can happen under specific circumstances but you are not going to see an 8-10 year old child or adult killed on the street by a tiny dog.) I also found it interesting what they said on the TV programme (last week?) about dangerous dogs/"XL Bullies": that dogs with shorter muzzles can do more damage due to how their teeth/jaws have to grip.

On the other hand, so far no legislation around dogs have worked. Do we still have Pit Bulls? Yes indeed, they are still being bred decades after they were banned in 1991. Did the new breeding laws in 2018 stop puppy farmers? No, it stopped mainly responsible breeders. Did Lucy's Law stop puppy farming? Not at all, they are now either licensed or the pups are brought over from Ireland or indeed almost any country worldwide -and some simply continue undetected until they are found out. Many use "stooge" bitches to show as the mother. Has the microchipping law meant that all dogs are chipped? No. I personally scanned an abandoned dog who had been found pregnant this week and she was not chipped. Has the law stopped dodgy breeders from cropping ears? No. As always it's the responsible that follow rules and the law and the irresponsible carry on regardless.

As for temperament and genetics, there are traits you absolutely cannot remove by training. It's simply not true that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. There ARE dogs that are born with temperaments that are bad enough for them to never function within society. And yes it can be very breed specific. I fully agree with MamaBas that the breeders or these dogs should be banned -those are the ones creating the problem. If somebody bought a tiger, one whose background didn't consist of animals that had been specifically chosen for their untypical soft nature for generations, would we be surprised if that tiger killed somebody when out for a walk? Of course not. You do not change genetic traits by training, you do it via carefully selective breeding. Sadly the general public do not understand this. Of course owners can be irresponsible and that doesn't help, but an irresponsible owner with a wellbred dog NOT bred for aggression is much less likely to be a danger.

The big question is: what to do? I can't see a solution.

I think a lot of trouble is caused by saying no bad dogs, just bad owners , all puppies a little blank page that a good owner can make a good dog.   Its a myth.  many breeds are very very unsuitable for casual owners no matter how kind hearted and gentle that owner is.  and its even more so for rescue / second hand dogs- a dog that has been in wrong home needs a very special skilled owner if its one of the more difficult breeds, just loving it is not enough.

american bull dog that bit me had loving owners- they were completely clueless and he did what ever he wanted as they had no idea how to tell him to do anything. he paid price for being in wrong home.  (it was more then me he bit that day and pure luck no kids in street when he was loose)  if they had bought a lab or retriever they softly softly approach would have likely resulted in a bit of a rude clown of a dog, not a dangerous dog but they liked the looks of ABD and bought into the gentle giant rubbish pushed by devotees

Excellent post Goldmali. My thoughts exactly.

> There is clearly money to be made in the breeding of these creatures and doubtless they will be used by criminals to threaten others.

You answered your own question.  These dogs have been selling for thousands of pounds regardless of quality, and people have jumped on the trend.  I've met some fabulous XL bullies, clearly carefully bred, with lovely temperaments, and I've met some really badly bred ones who obviously weren't what they were being sold as (just big staffie crosses), and I've met one in the middle, who clearly was an xl bully, and had a basically nice temperament, but a godawful owner who's "training" approach was all anger, and the dog was starting to get defensive.  The owner wasn't interested in reward-based training and went elsewhere after one session.  If that dog hasn't bitten someone by now, I'll be very surprised.

As Goldmali says, the people are very much the problem with these dogs - that owner was told by the breeder that these dogs don't feel pain so it's fine to hit them!  That's the problem.  Banning the dogs will make no difference; they'll not go anywhere, dangerous dogs will continue to be bred underground, and more innocent dogs will die because of how they look.  The law as it stands does not work.  The breeding laws are hopeless - look at the recent furore when one half of Absolute Dogs was exposed as a puppy farmer only a week or two ago!

What the answer is, I've no idea.  It's a cultural problem more than a dog problem and that is so hard to undo.

The problem is (once again) that a powerful dog is attracting the wrong type of owners.

It worries me when I see any large dog pulling it's owner around on the lead. If it is a Labrador or Golden Retriever, the dog and owner may be out of boisterous but friendly. If the dog is one of the LGD breeds, a large bull breed or a Malinois, I try to avoid it

I don't like the idea of a dog licence, but maybe owners and breeders need to pass a common sense or normality test

Not sure how 'common sense' can be tested for  . As for ''normality ' that is far too subjective a notion to serve any useful purpose. But I totally agree with you with regard to dogs in general being out of control. We live on the Northumberland coast and the lovely sandy beaches here have always been designated as dog friendly. I rarely go to the beach now, particularly at holiday times and weekends. Large boisterous dogs charging around with owners nowhere in sight terrify me now that I am older and recovering from knee surgery. Ditto with the hospitality sector. Apparently all accommodation has to be dog friendly which puts restaurant owners in a dilemma. Not all customers wish to eat with dogs at neighbouring tables. Don't misunderstand me. I love dogs and still have four of my own but I am very conscious of their behaviour around people and other dogs .

> Not sure how 'common sense' can be tested for

Neither do I and who does the 'testing'!!   To me, common sense has long gone, with everything!  Fact is it's 'not-so common' sense that prevails.

“ american bull dog that bit me had loving owners- they were completely clueless and he did what ever he wanted as they had no idea how to tell him to do anything.”

Time was that dogs had masters or mistresses, and were expected to behave properly. Now so many dogs are “fur babies” and have (human) mummies and dads and are treated like spoilt children. The relationship is completely changed.

I recoil at the term ' fur baby '. It seemed to become popular during and post lockdown.

> and have (human) mummies and dads

If there's one thing that irritates me with Noel Fitz's shows it's him calling the owners of his patients 'Mummy' and 'Daddy'. 

Errrr...true confessions here! I do call myself mummy to my old dogs., especially when they are struggling etc. Also, another terrible confession...our 7 year old golden Freya is the most stubborn dog we have ever owned. My husband has taken over her walks since my operation. She will suddenly put her bum on the ground and refuse to budge ( no particular reason for this). The first time she did this he phoned me in a panic as he couldn't get her to budge. I told him to hold the phone to her ear while I told her to bloody well get up and get moving. It worked!! Now on walks if she does the refuse to budge act he gets out his phone and threatens ' I 'm going to phone mummy ' She budges.
I am now retreating behind my wall of shame.

> Errrr...true confessions here!

LOL Jan.  Sorry about my Noel Fitz. comment ...... Here it's 'Master and Misses'

>I am now retreating behind my wall of shame.

No shame needed! At work we also refer to the clients - when we're telling them what we're doing by talking to the pet - as mummy or daddy ("All right Suki, Daddy will steady your head while I look at this sore foot") because it helps the owners to realise that we're aware that the pet is more than just livestock, it's a family member.

Thank you for that Jeangenie.

Another attack by an American BullyXL today. Apparently the dog turned on its owner and escaped into the playground of a primary school. Thankfully the children were all in class otherwise I am sure there would have been a  more tragic ending to this . The owner has serious injuries and the dog was shot by the police from what I have read.
It seems that the Don't Bully My Bully brigade are out in force most weekends in towns and cities across UK. Most look young enough to have young children. I find this very scary .

There was one in Stoke last weekend. Two women were badly bitten by an XL Bully. Unless someone is killed, or has life changing injuries, they don't all make the news now.

Very scary - especially when these dogs are turning on their owners!
I wonder how many have been rescues or have they had them since 8 weeks?