Does anyone know of anywhere in the UK that offers Penn hip scoring?

I've been doing some research into all the many hip scoring options around recently and it does seem that Penn hip is much more predictive of genetic hip problems, whereas the other schemes we use - which often see us throw dogs out of breeding programmes - frequently give results which don't differentiate trauma from hereditary causes.

Which made me think about looking for Penn hip for future dogs. Are there places in the UK which offer this? I looked on the Penn hip website and found the Royal Dick vet hospital in Edinburgh and I think a place in Glasgow.

But I just wondered if anyone had actually had Penn hip scoring done on their dogs?

Mike Guilliard is a certified Penn Hip vet & the second vet in the UK to be certified.

Search for Penn Hip practice

Just for interest if u use Penn scoring would this mean  that kc records would show as the dogs not being hip scored ? If so how would this affect potential new owners checking for health testing .?

You'd just do what we used to do very easily before the KC and the internet - you'd email puppy buyers a copy of your Penn hip results when they enquired.

Thanks Kathryn...

Thank u 1234 . . Wasn't aware of that

The PennHIP website used to have a map you can search which included the UK, there were several on there when I was looking. Might be worth a look to see if they still have that facility.

>You'd just do what we used to do very easily before the KC and the internet - you'd email puppy buyers a copy of your Penn hip results when they enquired.

The trouble with that is that you're potentially screening out the best homes; if there are no results on the KC website they won't bother enquiring in the first place because they'll assume the dog hasn't been tested.

Penn Hip is more accurate than scoring at a much younger age.
The potential buyer would need to know the dogs' KC name to check on the KC site & a responsible breeder wouldn't include KC details in most advertising(I know that this site does require KC names, but it also requires health test results & the Penn Hip results can be included on this site)
It is shortsighted to discourage breeders from PennHipping their dogs as statistics show the the use of Penn Hip guidelines has improved the quality of HD in future generations.
I find it hard to believe that breeders would not wish to actively reduce the incidence of poor hips in their dogs

I included the search for a PennHip facility iny first post

Thanks Kathryn but I think there must be something wrong with the search facility on the Penn Hip site because it was only showing those vets in Scotland and not Mike G when I looked...

Yes, PennHip is known to be much more predictive of hip dysplasia and later arthritis than the BVA scheme or OFA - which only look at the hips in one position.

I don't know of anywhere I would advertise a litter where I couldn't also say that my dog has been hip scored under the PennHip scheme and I can email results, in the description area about the litter or on my own website. I'm not much interested in selling to people who don't know me and just look up my dog online without checking out my own site and showing more interest...

> I'm not much interested in selling to people who don't know me and just look up my dog online without checking out my own site and showing more interest...

I would check out a breeder's website, but if the claimed results aren't then verified on the KC website I'd move on elsewhere.

If it were me I would be looking on your website . If I didn't understand what Penn was I would speak to the breeder as well as doing my own research on the subject

I find it hard to believe that breeders would not wish to actively reduce the incidence of poor hips in their dogs

If a breeder produced dogs with poor hips, should they breed from those dogs/lines at all?!

Gosh, I find some people's attitudes here a bit ridiculous. If you really like a breeder and their dogs and have seen their performance or conformation and want a pup from them, would you really dismiss a dog because the dog's health results aren't on the KC website? (Even when their own website states that they can email you the hip certificate and you can look the result up yourself if you like, on the Penn Hip website.)

And if you are just looking for A Pet Dog, and you don't actually care specifically about my dogs or lines or conformation or quals or what they have proven themselves capable of, and for some reason the be-all and end-all is you can see hip results on the KC website(!!) - even when I can email you a certificate - then I don't think I'd want you as a puppy buyer anyway... Go buy an Average Pet Dog.

Frankly I think some people's attitudes towards hips are crazy and a bit holier than thou. There is more to a dog than its hips and hips are just one piece of genetic information to factor into a breeding. There are many dogs I'd love a pup from myself, who have less than ideal hip scores. In the last 12 years of the breeds I've been involved with, we still have the same 'average' hip score. I'd put it forwards that therefore the BVA scheme is failing at reducing (genetically) hip dysplasia and unnecessarily ruling dogs out from the breeding stock, at a time when many breeds are suffering a lack of genetic diversity anyway. Which is why I am interested in Penn Hip in the first place...

But we're not even talking about less than ideal hip scores here, just them not being displayed on the KC website. Like the KC is some kind of arbiter of all things healthy in the dog world.

>I would check out a breeder's website, but if the claimed results aren't then verified on the KC website I'd move on elsewhere

How very short sighted, so if a dog is imported & has health tests done in the country of origin you wouldn't consider it as being health tested because they are not on the KC website ?

I would prefer to see a copy of the actual health report than the KC records for a dog.

PennHip reports are very informative, more so the the BVA/KC score sheet.

Breeding using PennHip results as part of improving the health status is proven, unlike the single X-ray of the BVA which has only resulted in minor improvements to the breed medians.

I am amazed at the poor hip/elbow scores that some breeders include in their breeding plans, really poor hips are not uncommon.

I've just input Yorkshire with 100 miles as distance, it came up with 2 vets including Mike, who I have used in the past.

>How very short sighted, so if a dog is imported & has health tests done in the country of origin you wouldn't consider it as being health tested because they are not on the KC website ?

LOL! It would be obvious if a dog was imported because of its name, and therefore I would look further. Otherwise if there are no results from tests that are compulsorily recorded by the KC (not all are, but are volunteered by the owners) I'd walk away. There's no shortage of top-quality puppies.

There's no shortage of top quality puppies?? I guess that depends what breed you're in. There is a huge shortage of top quality puppies in my breeds.

Why are you breeding anyway, if there's no shortage of quality puppies? Just to add more puppies like all the others? It's breeders like that who give the whole idea of deliberately producing puppies a bad name. You shouldn't be breeding unless there IS a shortage of top quality puppies in your breed, or in the lines you breed.

Kathryn, I just put in United Kingdom to try to get all those in the UK - so maybe it is better to put in specific UK towns - I'll try again...

It's worth putting counties in their search engine & 100 miles for distance.

Certainly in my breeds there are lots of nice looking puppies, but few that are from fully health tested parents. Pity all the breed clubs can't get their act together & promote compulsory health testing & mental stability before breeding from their dogs.

>Why are you breeding anyway, if there's no shortage of quality puppies?

I'm not breeding, so no need to be so rude and aggressive.

>Just to add more puppies like all the others? It's breeders like that who give the whole idea of deliberately producing puppies a bad name. You shouldn't be breeding unless there IS a shortage of top quality puppies in your breed, or in the lines you breed.

ALL puppies would ideally be top quality; pet owners deserve the best just as much as exhibitors. The breeders of them should be encouraged.

I'm not being rude and aggressive JG, I just disagree with you. I'm sorry if you think that's rude and aggressive. I don't think you "not breeding" validates anything you say. I guess you could pick up on a throwaway comment I made, though, if you can't address the issues concerned and just want to argue for the sake of it.

Personally, I think it's rude and aggressive to offer opinions where they haven't been sought or asked for. If I wanted to know what people thought of the Penn Hip scheme, and whether they would purchase a puppy from a breeder who used it, that is the question I would have asked. Instead I asked if anyone had done it and could recommend vets in the UK who offered it. But thanks for your unsolicited opinion on this one anyway.

The KC have repeatedly been on the wrong side of everything to do with health in dogs and have contributed through inaction, and through their damaging breed standards, to the poor health of many breeds. The only changes they have ever made have been reactionary and to stay on the right side of public opinion rather than being forward looking and anticipatory. There is zero chance I would automatically do, or not do, anything, regarding canine health just because the KC endorses or doesn't endorse it. And I think the health of the dogs I care about is more important than getting pats on the head by the KC. I'm not going to shift that stance to 'please' a puppy purchaser just because I want to sell puppies, as if that is the be all and end all.

Research shows that the Penn Hip scheme is more predictive of future problems for a dog and of genetic issues than the BVA or OFA schemes: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0212544

The improvement in hip status from using the Penn Hip scheme far outweighs the BVA scheme results, which is why I started to use the Penn Hip scheme when it became available in UK.
I no longer breed, but any puppy(including any rescue)I get is Penn Hipped at 16 weeks or asap after, to-date I have not been disappointed with the results.

Just because the PennHip result isn't currently shown on the KC website doesn't mean it will never be shown,

I was DNA testing long before the KC showed them on their website & all my dogs are parently DNA profiled, as well as their own DNA profiled, were possible. Something the KC should bring in as compulsory as it is in Germany for SV registered GSDs.

Would like to hear if you do find anyone in England that offers this, there was a place in York that did a stud I used but don’t think they offer it anymore (not sure why?)
I agree it seems like a reliable scheme, I’d probably use both to start off with…unfortunately after all the faff with the bva scheme and getting results back etc over the last 2 years it’s put me off to be honest - and yes nowadays the kennel club are rarely pioneers for schemes and ways to help breeds unfortunately.

Mike Guilliard has offered PennHIP for many years.

I put in my post code and 100 miles and it has cone up with 8 vets who carry out penn hip. The website seems to be working.

PennHIP has been in the UK for many years.  It was already established when I attend a seminar about DCM in dobes at the Liverpool small animal teaching hospital, way back when my second dobermann was still alive, so this would have been 2010ish.  IIRC it was Mike that gave the seminar.

It certainly is a much more accurate system and is far better at predicting OA from x-rays as well, not just HD.