Hello,

I have purchased a new puppy and have been reading the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Handbook. Throughout the book I noted that there was alot of emphasis on heart health. Also that certification should be shown for clear hearts. I have not seen any paperwork for the hearts of the sire and dam but have seen everything else that looks fine.

How accurate are MRI scans and is it common for some breeders to not carry out heart health tests before breeding?

Please could someone let me know because I was told that often MRI tests are not accurate so some breeders do not bother with them.

Thank you

All Cavaliers should be heart screened before being bred from. There is guidance on the Cavalier Health site.

MRI scans have no relevance to MVD(Mitral Valve Disease), cardiologists use Doppler ultrasound scans not MRI scans.

The MRI scan is used for Syringomyelia & the Chiari Malformation & are very reliable.

Please could someone let me know because I was told that often MRI tests are not accurate so some breeders do not bother with them.

I did recently read some interesting facts that explained why some UK breeders do not trust the SM/CM scheme, it was all backed up with facts/proof etc -the trouble is that I can't remember where I read it or exactly what it said! All I remember is thinking that yes, I can see there is a problem here. That doesn't mean that you should NOT expect a puppy to have parents MRI scanned under the scheme -you absolutely should. Likewise the heart breeding protocol should be followed and is fairly simple: Both parents should be at least 2.5 years old and heart clear at time of mating AND all four grandparents should be at least 5 years old and still heart clear.

There are many, many irresponsible breeders that do none of the health testing -sadly people still buy their pups. A large amount of these are pet breeders, i.e. they breed for no other reason than to make money/because they enjoy it, they do not have a wider interest in the breed and keep up to date with current recommendations, attend shows etc. I no longer have a Cavalier myself but I have had them in the past (as pets) and my first lived until he was 15 years old.

There is guidance on the Cavalier Health site.


Just be aware this is an American website so cannot be applied to UK dogs in the exact same way as for instance the official schemes are not by the same bodies.

There is plenty of info on the UK Cavalier Club website: http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html They also now have a dedicated info site for people interested in getting a Cavalier puppy: https://www.cavalierclubpuppies.com/

Noted and thank you.

Yes I noted SM was the condition mentioned that gives the dog terrible pain, something about the brain being too big for the skull.

The breeder that I purchased my puppy from didn’t seem like a greedy person or a regular breeder. I found her via Champdogs website two years ago and waited for this litter.

Two weeks ago I visited her litter, and she selected the puppy that I could choose. I didn’t get to select the puppy myself from the litter. During my visit I didn’t see any health documents for the parents. I think that was just an error not intentional to hide anything.

During my visit I was told by the breeder that she did not MRI test her dog or the stud, because she knows the dog is already clear! Also that the existing MRI tests are not the most reliable for SM, but assured me that both dire and Sam were not affected. I have the KC names for both parents but can’t see much up to date info.

I really took my time with purchasing a puppy, did lots of research attended the club show last year and used this website to find a breeder that seemed passionate about the dogs well-being as opposed to a puppy farmer etc.  the breeder seems very knowledgable about Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and takes part in dog shows including the most recent one at Crufts . So I trusted that she would breed responsibly.

I have a puppy contract however, the puppy contract confirms the KC names of the parents but does not confirm what health tests had been expedited before breeding both of them. Also i was not given a copy of the health certificates for both of the parents within the puppy contract.

I collected the puppy yesterday, he also has an ‘umbilical hernia’, the breeder told me that hernias are very common in 70% of Cavalier Kong Charles Spaniels.

I’m not sure if I should return the puppy back to the breeder if important  health testing was not carried out.

If both parents are clear of SM, how can I find this out?

Just be aware this is an American website so cannot be applied to UK dogs in the exact same way as for instance the official schemes are not by the same bodies.

All American Cavaliers descend from UK ancestors as do Cavaliers everywhere else in the world, the health testing should be comprehensive no matter where the dog is.

The US site is a useful resource & more comprehensive that the UK club site.

The only way to know that a dog does not have  the malformation &/or Syringomyelia is the MRI scan as many dogs with the condition(s) are asymptomatic & can live a full life without any signs

Perhaps this article from 2020 is the one you saw.

If you have the full kc registered new hou should be ne able to see what tests have been done of you go to the health section  test finder of the kennel.club website .. it then allows you to search on the parents and gives all details that have  even register's

Should read if you have the full kc registered name

> is it common for some breeders to not carry out heart health tests before breeding?

It's typical for the majority of breeders to not carry out any health testing before breeding, especially on a popular breed like the cavalier.  Breeders that do all the available tests on any given breed are a rare thing, unfortunately.

However those that don't are wrong if u want to breed healthy animals you need to do the right testing or don't breed

I have to admit it drives me mad when breeders don’t do DNA tests. It’s not even expensive.

I’ve heard quite a few say “Oh I don’t have X disease in my lines, no need to test.” But for a lot of conditions it’s impossible to know if a dog is a carrier without testing, because they won’t show any symptoms exactly like a clear dog. They could have had carriers in their line forever and just gotten lucky that the haven’t produced any affected dogs yet.

There were plenty of people saying that we don’t have vWD in papillons so no need to test, until a couple of people proved their dogs are carriers. My own boy is a carrier as well. But even if you think you don’t have it, it’s worth testing just in case.

For a horrible painful condition like SM I’d definitely want evidence that parents had been examined and considered unlikely to develop it. It doesn’t guarantee that the pups will automatically be fine, but it increases the chances that they don’t develop it, just like choosing parents with 0/0 patella grades decreases the likelihood of luxation.

I think some breeders consider testing to show a lack of confidence in the health of their lines and they become quite defensive if you ask to see results. But anyone can end up with genetic issues in their breeding, especially with newly discovered conditions, and I don’t think there should be any shame in that if you genuinely didn’t know. And I think it’s much better to test and know for sure, either way.

>During my visit I was told by the breeder that she did not MRI test her dog or the stud, because she knows the dog is already clear! Also that the existing MRI tests are not the most reliable for SM, but assured me that both dire and Sam were not affected. I have the KC names for both parents but can’t see much up to date info.

>I really took my time with purchasing a puppy, did lots of research attended the club show last year and used this website to find a breeder that seemed passionate about the dogs well-being as opposed to a puppy farmer etc.  the breeder seems very knowledgable about Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and takes part in dog shows including the most recent one at Crufts . So I trusted that she would breed responsibly.

>I have a puppy contract however, the puppy contract confirms the KC names of the parents but does not confirm what health tests had been expedited before breeding both of them. Also i was not given a copy of the health certificates for both of the parents within the puppy contract.

>I collected the puppy yesterday, he also has an ‘umbilical hernia’, the breeder told me that hernias are very common in 70% of Cavalier Kong Charles Spaniels.

>I’m not sure if I should return the puppy back to the breeder if important  health testing was not carried out.

>If both parents are clear of SM, how can I find this out?

Sadly a lot of the breeders who used to MRI scan no longer do so because they have lost faith in the people interpreting the scans, plus the 'official' BVA grading which is all the KC will list on their site is about another £100-£150 on top of the several hundred pound scan. Plus of course during the pandemic virtually no vet hospitals were offering the low cost scan the Club scheme uses. I had to drive from Suffolk to Portsmouth to get my dog scanned, paid several hundred pounds for the scan, then had to fork out another £150 for the vet to actually send me the interpretation. I can't blame people for not doing it! But there is no way your breeder can 'know the dog is already clear' if they have not had them scanned.

Hernias are indeed common in Cavaliers so I would not worry about that, assuming we are talking about the usual fatty lump type of hernia not a true herniated bowel which would of course be serious. Many Cavaliers have the fatty lump and I have actually never heard of it causing a problem.

The DNA tests for Curly Coat/Dry Eye and Episodic Falling should have been done within 3 generations I think it is, dogs which are progeny of 2 clear tested dogs are listed as hereditary clear.

what is the situation Lucydogs with heart testing should that have been done on both parents and proof shown ?

If buyers would not buy pups from breeders who don't  test,  then even the purely financially motivated would needntonup their breeding standards.

If I was getting a Cavalier then there is no way I would get a puppy where the parents are not tested for SM (MRI scan) or heart tested, they are way too big a health problem to not test for in the breed and a potential life of pain and expense for the dog and owner alike.
I don't get why some breeders don't test, its well known in the breed, the breed clubs promote health testing. It is buyer beware. Do your homework and don't purchase a puppy without the relevant health tests and with good results of them too.
Many tests help reduce the issues, they don't always eradicate it, only things we can test ourselves out of is by DNA testing certain conditions

It’s stuff like this that gives all show breeders a bad name as well.

Joe Public is becoming very much more aware that quite serious health problems exist in some breeds and SM is a particularly bad one that was “exposed” a while back. If breeders are refusing to test for a condition that’s clearly very painful and distressing, it really doesn’t give the impression that they actually care about their animals (whether that’s the truth or not).

Hi Lucy,

I have since written to the breeder to request she emails me copies of both parents health test results because it was not included within the puppy pack or shown to my when I first visited the litter.

Also, when I looked in the KC website the mummy of my puppy does have EF. But I cannot see any current info for the dad of the puppy other than from 2018.

I am concerned that the vet check next week for my puppy will not be comprehensive. It’s just a basic examination.

Also the hernia on his tummy has been listed by her vet as a ‘7mm reducible umbilical hernia’ .

I may return the puppy at this point because I am concerned the major genetic conditions have not been tested for the parents.

Yes I have the full KC Name for both parents but the father of the puppy page is 2018. It is not recent.

The mums page shows she has EF and is clear of Curly Coat syndrome

I am not confident about breeders from this website now to be honest. I waited for two years and trusted the breeder would breed responsibly. We discussed SM and she told me two years ago that would be something tested before breeding.

1) When I chose the litter I was not shown any of the health certificates for both parents.
2) When I asked to be emailed them, i was told I could see them when I collect the puppy.
3) The puppy contract does not mention that the mummy of the puppy has EF.
4) Also the breeder is not happy to explain why she didn’t chose to carry out any checks for SM when it is a painful illness for many cavaliers.

In good faith I believed that because she was listed on this website Champdogs, has a passion for the breed, and wins at dogs shows that I had found a responsible  breeder. But now I think there is no difference between a breeder from this website and the ones listed on Gumtree.

I am really dissapointed at this point.

Athough cd will give u a good idea about breeders it is then up to the individual to do their research having found  a potential breeder . Its not up to cd to do that detailed research for you unfortunately.  Always caveat emptor. 
If u found a breeder on the kc website it would be the same there and infact u have even less info listed
If u used gumtree for example its is more likley that u would not find responsible breeders but still it would be up to u to research the individual and your breed

I didn’t imply that Champ Dogs should do the research for me. However Champdogs should not welcome irresponsible breeding practices on their platform. Otherwise what is the difference between this website and Pets4Homes?

I can see u are disappointed and perhaps an email to admin would help .
What are u going to do now about your pup ? Remembering all may be well even without the appropriate tests .very difficult at this point and you may have some difficulties broaching this with the breeder

I think during Covid. champdogs in good faith relaxed some health test requirements as it was difficult or impossible to get testing done.

Generally I'd say wait to breed,  but with bitches especially time may be an issue.

An educated risk knowing the rest of the pedigree granparents other parents in problems tbat do not have a straightforward mode of inheritence might mean the risk is no bigger than from 2 tested.

There is no excuse re heart testing.

Also some tests are once only,  like DNA tests and Orthopaedic,  or only needed repeating just before breeding like Clinical eye tests.

>However Champdogs should not welcome irresponsible breeding practices on their platform. Otherwise what is the difference between this website and Pets4Homes?

Increasingly, less and less. And if I found a breeder I liked on Pets4Homes, I wouldn't hesitate frankly. CDs has dogs listed as 'health-tested' when their hip and elbow scores are unacceptably high - the general public don't know that and think that as long as they are tested at all, that is fine.

Then there was the greedy and mercenary request for people to pay an extra £10 during the whole puppy boom of lockdown, to get onto a priority mailing list for upcoming litters - which was just cashing in on the massive demand for puppies.

If I disappear from this site, you'll know why, after saying that - but frankly there is no way to guarantee you will get a healthy dog just by selecting a particular website or organisation. You have to do your research into the breed and look for those things which you want to see...

But Cavaliers have some serious health issues and personally, whilst I love the breed (I've had some lovely Cavaliers in my classes), I just wouldn't want to buy one myself due to the risk of health problems.

Just be aware this is an American website so cannot be applied to UK dogs in the exact same way as for instance the official schemes are not by the same bodies.

All American Cavaliers descend from UK ancestors as do Cavaliers everywhere else in the world, the health testing should be comprehensive no matter where the dog is.

That's not what I meant. I meant that it's no help for a UK puppy buyer to read a US website and for instance be told about needing OFA results.

I have to admit it drives me mad when breeders don’t do DNA tests. It’s not even expensive.

It can be expensive for sure, especially when you have several dogs to test. However, I feel that these days the back yard breeders have very much jumped on the DNA bandwagon and claim that their dogs are "fully health tested" or list a long string of conditions, in order to make themselves LOOK responsible as a lot of puppy buyers have realised that dogs should be health tested before being bred from. They then conveniently forget (or don't even know) about conditions that cannot be checked via DNA. Unfortunately a lot of puppy buyers fall for it. And indeed some type out a long list of conditions tested clear for, but unless you know what should be tested for in the breed, the most vital one could be missing. This really annoys me.

I don’t think DNA is expensive at all, especially as you can often just test parents and not necessarily each individual pup.

It’s certainly far less expensive than having to take a pup back and refund the purchase price if something shows up that you didn’t test for.

I’ll also argue that if someone can’t afford to test, they can’t afford an emergency C-section, or to lose several pups from parvo, or any of the other million things that can go wrong.

And in the case of my boy (hereditary clear for NAD and PRA but parents not tested for vWD) it was absolutely worth testing him to get that piece of the puzzle, even though I’m never going to breed him. £90 very well spent to know he’s a carrier for vWD, because carriers can show mild symptoms and it’s much better to be prepared for that if it’s a possibility.

I agree about BYBs jumping on the bandwagon with testing and “blinding buyers with science”. And being “tested” is of course not the same as being clear/unaffected.

I’ll also argue that if someone can’t afford to test, they can’t afford an emergency C-section, or to lose several pups from parvo, or any of the other million things that can go wrong.

It could be the stud dog you are testing, and not a breeder testing a bitch. For instance I had a stud enquiry from somebody I'm happy for to use my dogs (that's not many people) and she wanted some DNA tests that I'd actually never heard of as well as some I had only tested certain dogs for, not this one as I was not expecting him to be used again (and they weren't known when I used him myself, this being a veteran). Those cost just under £200.

Don’t you cover that with your stud fee (if you’ll excuse the pun )?

But Cavaliers have some serious health issues and personally, whilst I love the breed (I've had some lovely Cavaliers in my classes), I just wouldn't want to buy one myself due to the risk of health problems

As someone who has lost their last Cavalier aged 13 1/2 from an age related condition & who was from fully health tested parents(& yes his parents & grand parents were fully health tested for available tests before being bred from) I cannot agree that Cavaliers have any more"risks"than many other breeds.

Perusing the puppies available in many breeds on this & other sites, the vast majority of breeders do not do a full panel of relevant health tests & many rely on just one or two tests.

The breeder of my last Cavalier sadly is no longer with us, so I cannot go back to her & the ridiculous cost of others puppies(still in excess of £1,000 from untested/partially tested parents)means he was my last Cavalier for the time being.

>the ridiculous cost of others puppies(still in excess of £1,000 from untested/partially tested parents)means he was my last Cavalier for the time being.

Seeing that the average price for a Cavalier was in excess of £1000 since 2017 - long before Covid sent prices of all puppies skyrocketing - the chances of you getting a quality, healthy Cavalier for under that sum again are vanishingly small. Be prepared for £1500 as a minimum if you want health tests done.

Where did you get the average price from? This site? As others have said it's no guarantee that a puppy will have been bred with care, in the interests of the improvement of the breed both in health & character just because it is on this site.

Some Border Collies were on offer for £4,500 on this site by a breeder who has now removed themselves! Not fully health tested parents, known epilepsy producing bloodlines, all based on the win at Crufts in YKC obedience(only dog in class), which they called a Crufts Champion. I could buy a health tested trained adult for that

“My dog lived until X years old and never had problems” is NOT the same thing as “This breed is healthy”.

My lab died at 15, which is older than the average. That doesn’t in any way prove that Labs as a breed aren’t prone to, say, hip and elbow dysplasia.

My friend lost her beloved cavalier at 8 and she’d had heart problems from a young age. That doesn’t prove anything either! And my grandmother smoked like a chimney and died at 90 of a non-smoking related cause, but that doesn’t mean smoking isn’t associated with a lot of health risks.

ONE dog (or one grandmother) can easily be an outlier, and we can’t draw any conclusions without looking at the actual data. And it’s fairly obvious that similar breeds just don’t have anywhere near the same levels of heart problems and SM as the cavs do, not by a long way.

Yes,  my dogs are clear for over 200 conditions,  but only 3 are breed specific,  (and my young healthy bitches are both carriers for one of them).

The other results are nice to have in case they do crop up in your breed,  and become a breed specific issue.

I will be breeding the youngsters to Clear dogs,  and hopefully  eventually will have Clear pups to go forward with.

I wonder where this has left the op and what they are going to do about the pup she has

> “My dog lived until X years old and never had problems” is NOT the same thing as “This breed is healthy”.

My lab died at 15, which is older than the average. That doesn’t in any way prove that Labs as a breed aren’t prone to, say, hip and elbow dysplasia.

So, so true.  My last dobermann died at a couple of months short of 15, with a perfect heart, confirmed the day she died (liver cancer).  But the breed as a whole has an average lifespan of 9 years and a 60% rate of DCM.  I've also only lost one dobe to DCM, out of 4 so far.  Individuals and small numbers cannot represent the entire breed.

I agree there are vastly overpriced puppies out there, but £1200-£1500 is about what I charge for fully tested Cavalier puppy. Most of my breeder friends charge a bit more, but if they want more than 2K that's definitely too much.

I wrote about puppies on this site advertised for over £1,000 from parents that are not fully health tested, one breeder was advertising £3,000, for such a puppy.

Looking at the breeding of puppies it's notable that few mention being MRI scanned & only one had an SM/Chiari result !!.

Not one was hip/elbow scored & my vet has just done a double hip replacement on a Cavalier aged 20 months, neither parent was scored

Cavaliers are not usually hip/elbow scored. A few breeders check for luxating patella. But the main things a reputable Cavalier breeder should do is test for hearts, eyes, SM and the DNA tests for CC/DE and EF.

All breeding dogs should be hip & elbow scored regardless of breed, there is no KC breed that has no case of HD or ED, just because the dog is sound doesn't mean it doesn't have HD or ED.

As I understand it, greyhounds do not suffer from HD, but they are the exception. Small breeds are also less likely for it to be a problem.

>I wrote about puppies on this site advertised for over £1,000 from parents that are not fully health tested, one breeder was advertising £3,000, for such a puppy.

During the pandemic puppy prices - of all breeds, crossbreeds and mongrels, rocketed skywards, generally settling at about three to four times the usual amount. Thankfully prices are starting to fall again (lack of demand now that people are back at work) and hopefully they'll continue doing so til they're back to normal.

As far as I can see the risk of HD and ED in small breeds is so low that breeders rarely bother testing, in the same way that large breeds rarely experience patella luxation.

I’m definitely on the side of testing for everything just in case, but I don’t think I’d subject a demonstrably sound toy dog to hip or elbow imaging if it requires an anaesthetic when it’s highly likely to come back clear. On the other had I’d ask for patella checks on large dogs as a matter of course (even if they aren’t going to be bred from) because a vet can easily do it in 2 minutes during their annual health check.

> As far as I can see the risk of HD and ED in small breeds is so low that breeders rarely bother testing

Yep, and in sighthounds too it's not normally tested for, I don't know any borzois, salukis or whippets that have been scored and although I've known hundreds of each breed I don't know, and haven't heard, of any that have shown signs of HD.

Edited to say I know they tend to test more in America, I just looked at the OFA breed stats for hips Silken Windhounds only 4 tested, 100% normal. Borzoi 97.9% normal (912 tested), Saluki 293 tested - 98% normal, whippet 226 tested 98.2% normal. Fit for function I'd say

Not KC greyhounds, the study was done on racing greyhounds

Dogs don't have to show signs of lameness if they have HD, the same thing applies to Cavaliers with the Chiari Malformation & Syringomyelia, plus some have the Malformation but never develop Syringomyelia.This is why all breeding dogs should be fully health tested

> Dogs don't have to show signs of lameness if they have HD

True, but by the same token you can look at a lot of dogs and know they have awful hip scores before you look them up, like german shepherds for example. Stand at the ringside and you can see they have a huge HD problem before you look to see the 20 odd percent of abnormal scores. There is no need to put a sound, non exaggerated sighthound through a GA (or even a sedative) to prove they're sound when it's never been a problem in those breeds.

> there is no KC breed that has no case of HD or ED

Are you sure? Can you point me towards a case of a borzoi with HD? I'm just curious because I've never heard of one. Even then the odd one, which could be the result of an injury (especially in a breed known for racing around at high speed) doesn't mean the entire breed should be tested.

Similarly I’ve never heard of a papillon with HD or ED, although plenty have luxating patellas. Dodgy hips and elbows seem to only really be an issue in larger heavier breeds.

Don’t you cover that with your stud fee (if you’ll excuse the pun )?

Yes but it was still money to find up front and almost £200 which I don't always have to spare. (Emergencies, whether for whelping or anything else, we have covered in other ways). So yes I do most certainly think that DNA tests should be made use of, but I still don't consider them cheap. I guess it's all relative though, we don't all have the same income or indeed the same outgoings so we won't all agree on what is cheap or not.

I’m definitely on the side of testing for everything just in case, but I don’t think I’d subject a demonstrably sound toy dog to hip or elbow imaging if it requires an anaesthetic when it’s highly likely to come back clear. On the other had I’d ask for patella checks on large dogs as a matter of course (even if they aren’t going to be bred from) because a vet can easily do it in 2 minutes during their annual health check.

I fully agree. A small, lightweight toybreed that is still running around, jumping etc at 15 years of age and well above clearly doesn't have a problem. They are far more likely to have LP -and THAT we do need a scheme for. We already know that HD and ED are both genetic and environmental and exactly how it works isn't known. A larger breed however will surely have more stress on their legs and will also get more exercise, and owners are far more likely to walk them too much whilst still growing, than owners of toydogs are.

If every breed is going to be tested for everything regardless of whether it is known in the breed or not (I don't count DNA here as you can get the deals with 200+ conditions tested for one price) -then to health test any dogs would end up being so prohibitively expensive that puppy prices would increase and many buyers would still go for the cheaper, untested option. You'd need to x-ray hips and elbows and spines, MRI scan (there are certainly breeds other than Cavaliers where SM has been known), heart scan, eye test, patella check, DNA test and I am sure that I have forgotten a lot of potential issues but it has gone 3 am so my brain is a bit muddled lol. Eyes, hearts and MRI would also likely need to be done more than once.