Hi everyone!

I've been doing lots of reading and research before our first puppy came home but I'm keen to get insights from as many experienced dog owners as possible to check I'm on the right track.

My pup is 9 weeks old, so hasn't had his second vaccinations yet. I'm very keen to socialise him by taking him out in my arms (or maybe investing in a puppy sling or similar) and getting him used to the sights and sounds of different places and people. I know the crucial socialisation window isn't extremely long so I want to make sure I go about it the right way.

At this stage, is it best to just go out little and often every day? I've taken him out on two very short walks around the block (2 different days, 10mins each or so) and he's fine most of the time but also ends up getting a little scared and shaky sometimes so I don't want to overdo it.

All advice welcome but first time owner so please be gentle! :)

I would take Isla onto the driveway and let her sit and watch cars and people go by. I live in a small village so not exactly hoards of things going past but enough for her to watch and get used to. I did t take her far in my arms as she quickly got too heavy for me to carry very far as well as wriggly.

mine went out in a sling but we didn't walk far, mostly just down the road to a convenient brick wall where we could sit and watch the traffic and meet people walking past

As the others have said you don't need to be far from home at all, sit in the garden or on a nearby bench or wall and just let puppy watch the world go by, chat to people passing, be relaxed and happy yourself and pup picks that up. Try and plan it for the kids coming out of school, if there is one near you, that's always good for screams, yells, squeals etc. Go and sit in the local park and watch off lead dogs playing. I take new pups everywhere that I can, I have a buggy so they go out for a full walk with the older dogs in the safety of the buggy, they visit as many friends homes and gardens as possible, pet shops, they come to dog meetups and racing, see and go on buses, lots of short journeys in the car. If you have a train station near you go and sit there.

He should be out every day, preferably a new place (or new time of day) every day. There's no time constraint because he's not exercising, a half hour is fine though. Just remember when you can actually walk him on the ground that it's only 5 minutes per month of life formal exercise, this doesn't include sitting down the park with him off lead milling around you, zooming, sleeping whatever. If you're standing/sitting still, not throwing a toy for him so not 'forcing' him to move then it doesn't count towards his formal exercise.

The more you do with a pup the more chilled an adult you end up with.

Have you seen homeless people with their tiny off lead puppy trotting down a busy high street? Their dogs are always bomb proof as adults regardless of breed because they've seen and done everything from an early age.

I'd not take an unvaccinated puppy out off his own fully contained property until he's had ALL his shots, and then plus a week.  It only takes one infected dog to infect a vulnerable puppy.

You might take him off in the car to somewhere things are going on so he gets used to sights and sounds, however.   Be careful about strangers touching the puppy - something like Paro can be transmitted from hands and feet.

Good advice, I never vaccinate puppies before 10 weeks of age and even then only after a titre test that indicates vaccination is required & won't compromise the immature immune system of the puppy.

My puppies go everywhere possible with me, many years ago I even took one in my arms into a dog friendly restaurant on the way home from collecting her. I've never had a puppy develop any of the core diseases, going back to the 1950s.

If your puppy is small enough to be carried, using a papoose style carry bag on your front is a good way to not only socialise your pup, but also develop a close bond a quicker & you can reward good acceptable behaviour.

I never cease to be amazed by owners who are paranoid about puppies"catching"something that they fail to socialise sufficiently & end up with fearful dogs, especially during current pandemic.

In a way it's similar to the problems with children not building a strong immune system, because they they live in a much more sanitized world. There was a clinical study done of two groups of children in Italy, one group in a high end area of Rome & the other in a very rural farming area. The results were eye opening, nearly all the city children had multiple allergies & childhood diseases over a period of 15 years, of the rural children none developed allergies & only a very few contracted mild cases of childhood diseases.  All the children received the same vaccinations & health are.

I've always taken mine out in a baby sling from day one anywhere that is dog friendly . Even managed to be allowed to take one toy breed into tescos in the sling . Carrying a gsd pup in a sling at least made it practical until they were fully vaccinated
The sling ive used is a bit like a sling for a broken arm so goes over your shoulder and pup can snuggle in and see the world go by .my sling has managed 4 puppies all sizes and 3 human children and still going well .

Thanks so much for all of your advice - it's very much appreciated!

Yes, he's small enough to be carried so I've just been carrying him in my arms on our short outings but a papoose/sling might make things a bit easier, and at least give me my arm back, haha. I certainly am aware of his vulnerability in terms of immune system so I don't let him down anywhere, but I definitely want to let him see and smell as many different sights and sounds as possible in order that he gains confidence and takes things in his stride.

I'm glad to hear that it's ok to take him out every day to a new location/at a different time etc. I just have to time it around his naps, which are frequent and long, haha. I was a bit scared incase I overwhelmed him by doing too much too soon but is it more a case of "lets just get on with it, this is all normal" and allowing him to adapt and build his own resilience (whilst I remain calm and reassuring of course)?

He's mostly been really good at staying calm when seeing other dogs, but there have been a couple of occasions where he's definitely found his voice and barked the place down when the other dogs weren't doing anything and were actually very placid. I'm hoping that's just puppy nerves and that he'll grow out of it!!!

It might not be fear but trying to get the other dogs attention, one of mine has a special invitational bark for dogs he wants to interact with, he goes bum up & then has what I call his silly face on.

If that happens I would move further away until he stops  barking and is happy seeing tje dog person or whatever . That way u will find out his comfortable distance and then as he gets older u can find out what the reason for his barking is. Hopefully it will fade

> is it more a case of "lets just get on with it, this is all normal" and allowing him to adapt and build his own resilience (whilst I remain calm and reassuring of course)?

Spot on, he'll learn it's no big deal, we go lots of places, we see lots of things, we get left alone, different people hold us, it's all good

The best advice I can give is not to panic about the so-called critical socialisation window.  Certainly it's an important time, but if pup is nervous, don't worry - Pod was scared of people and dogs at that age, so his critical window was basically missed, but he's still grown into a confident dog.  He just needed more ongoing work.  He's taught me a lot about that "window".  Base temperament, resilience, and how you handle socialisation is far more important.

Socialisation is ongoing.  It does not stop at 16 weeks, it continues for many months (and depending on how you look at it, for the life of the dog).

> In a way it's similar to the problems with children not building a strong immune system, because they they live in a much more sanitized world.

Absolutely agree.

I've always taken new pups out and about from the moment they arrive home, I'll let them down on the ground for a pee too in quiet spots. I also invite lots of friends dogs into the garden for puppy parties. The current youngest in the family is my nieces 14 week old silken pup who is super cool about everything, trucks, loud noises, crowds, he has wonderful doggy manners because we've allowed (encouraged) the adults to tell him off, he's been out and about seeing so many new things from arriving here at 8 weeks old. He's not going to get in any trouble down the park because he respects other dogs and can already read their body language, if they don't want to play with him he gives them a wide berth and wanders on to find someone else.

This is what I want, not a frustrated older puppy leaping about at the end of a lead jumping at every person or dog it sees because it hasn't had those all important early life experiences, then it gets bitten because it's outgrown it's puppy licence but not learned how to behave. It gets bitten a few more times then becomes reactive itself.

Barking at something is an emotional arousal response and not a calm response to something. If the puppy barks at anything them move away from what is triggering it as you dont know if it is having a positive or negative impact at that age. Moving away will create calm response. Calm dogs make good choices, barking dogs generally don't.

You can also do things at home to build confidence like playing in ball pits or tubs filled with empty plastic bottles. Finding food in boxes filled with paper so they have to get their heads in and rustle about. Walking on as many different surfaces as possible and walking though hanging things.

The thing to say about bags and carrying puppies in them, is that the puppy's experience in a bag, 4 feet off the floor, is very different to life at dog-height on the floor. And whilst the pup can look at things, they can't investigate them more (smelling them, touching them). So for socialisation purposes, it has limitations. It's definitely better than nothing, but I often see a very different response from puppies on the floor, to puppies in the bag. (Ie they may seem fine in the bag but then worried when put on the floor.)

And also the puppy in the bag can't move away or use much body language to show they are worried about something. Unless owners are super dog-aware and noticing things like the puppy turning their head away from something, it is easy to go marching up to something the puppy is actually worried about and force the puppy to be exposed to it beyond what they can cope with. Which is only going to cause sensitisation rather than socialisation. And might be what is happening here...

So the ideal is the puppy is on quite a long light-weight leash (like a puppy house line) which is kept loose and the puppy is allowed to choose where to go, when to approach and when to retreat and so on and the handler only steps in if help is needed.

In terms of disease-risk, if you think it through, you can't really eliminate all risk. Even if you never put the puppy down outside the house, and you have all humans remove their shoes at the door, if you have other dogs, they are going to be walking outside and returning inside - and you're not going to be disinfecting their feet with parvocide multiple times a day. If you have any carpets or unwashable rugs that have been walked on before you banned shoes from the house, then those can harbour parvo. If you attend puppy classes and the floor hasn't been mopped before, or anyone is wearing shoes there, ditto. It gets to the point where clearly you have to take SOME risk, so then it becomes about what risk...

For me, you need to consider the incidence of parvo where you live. If you live somewhere with an outbreak or high risk, then you need to be more cautious than if you live somewhere without a single case in the last 10 years or so. (However, people wear shoes and travel. They even fly abroad with said shoes on. There are risks, wherever you live But there are also risks to under-socialisation.)

Until vaccinations are complete, if I live somewhere which is medium-risk, I do try not to put the puppy down on pavements or parks where other strange dogs are likely to have toileted. We take our shoes off at the door (we do that anyway). But I do take the puppy to puppy classes, and I do take the puppy to garden centres and DIY stores almost daily - and I put the pup down in these locations, as well as in the middle of woods or forests, on the beach, and out of the way natural places. I do this even though I freak out about parvo - after all, people can step in poop and walk in a store. I do it because I recognise that the risk of an under-socialised puppy, is also a risk that I want to avoid. And I can't achieve a socialised puppy if I never put the pup down until weeks after their last vaccination.

So I just avoid the most risky locations - where other dogs have toileted - and I manage my freak-out about the rest by telling myself it's a risk I need to take, because it's the lesser risk (compared to under-socialisation). And if we take these risks and something happens, I still won't regret doing this - because I see it as necessary and not optional as far as risks go. I haven't had any situations so far to worry about, many puppies down the line. The litter sister to my 1yo died from parvo though - after the first jab at 8wks, but only appearing a few days after, so it was likely she was infected before that jab was given, as there is an incubation period. I don't know any more details - but it does happen and it is out there.

I do the same as you 1234. Mine are straight out and about. I avoid areas with high volume of dog traffic so popping on the ground when sat on a bench in a village high street and so on after 1st vaccine. Love going into shops, vet bed into a trolley and pop in the pup and away we go

I have exported several dogs to far flung places, meaning they couldn't go until 12 - 14 weeks, and faced long flights.

The 2 that went to Australia also faced a month of quarantine

I took these pups everywhere from 6 weeks.

They all bounced out of their travel crates, and the 2 that then went into Quarantine came out and went to shows within days, full of confidence, eager to meet and greet.

It's really good to hear so many different opinions and suggestions, especially as a first time dog owner who is so keen to get everything right (although I realise that some mistakes are bound to happen on my part!). Thanks everyone for getting involved in this thread.

As for the managed risk, I think that's a really great point. My main concern is that I live in a busy city and I'm not entirely sure where would be the best places to take puppy and allow him on the ground 'safely'. He's got his first vet check-up later this week so perhaps I can ask the vet about the parvo situation and for some 'safe' location suggestions. Although perhaps all vets would discourage it just to keep themselves on the safe side advice-wise.

I have friends with adult dogs and wondered if I could maybe take him round to their gardens to introduce him to other dogs in a controlled environment. Dogs that I know are friendly and would hopefully allow him a good experience. But at the same time, even though I know the other dogs are up to date with their vaccines, it's difficult not to worry about the potential germs puppy could pick up from them.

Perhaps I could take him to a quiet village in the car and we could have a brief wee explore of the ground knowing it's got less traffic than the city? I really wish I wasn't so paranoid about trying to get everything right but it's such a privilege and joy to have him and I want to bring him up to be a healthy, happy, confident dog.

>I live in a busy city and I'm not entirely sure where would be the best places to take puppy and allow him on the ground 'safely'.

Pet shops, B&Q/DIY stores, garden centres - to name a few.

Regular weekly trips to the vet to get treats from receptionist (carried until after 1st jabs) and find a quiet time of day.

In a bag to dog friendly cafes and pubs.

>He's got his first vet check-up later this week so perhaps I can ask the vet about the parvo situation and for some 'safe' location suggestions.

In all likelihood the vet will tell you not to put the puppy on the ground anywhere in public until 2 weeks after the last vaccination. Because that's what vets are taught to say at vet school and because their only concern is your puppy's physical health - not his socialisation and psychological health. If your puppy contracts parvo because they said you could put him on the ground, you can sue them for a lot of money. If your puppy ends up being fear aggressive and reactive because you DIDN'T put him on the ground, you can't prove it was due to this and therefore you can't sue them.

Has he had any vaccinations yet? I wouldn't put him down anywhere until 1 week after the first. After that, I'd do as above.

>I have friends with adult dogs and wondered if I could maybe take him round to their gardens to introduce him to other dogs in a controlled environment.

You can do this, but be aware that the other dog might not appreciate an 'intruder' into their garden even if usually friendly. (Depends on the dog.) You can invite them to your garden instead... Keep the older dog on leash and allow the pup to move away if he wants to.

>But at the same time, even though I know the other dogs are up to date with their vaccines, it's difficult not to worry about the potential germs puppy could pick up from them.

You've got to get over this or you will end up with an under-socialised puppy. You also have to realise that the vaccines which are given to a puppy that protect a puppy from something another dog can pass on are DHP - Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvovirus. The UK has seen almost zero cases of distemper or hepatitis in the last 5 years. It's something like 5 cases of distemper across the entire UK and zero hepatitis. Therefore parvovirus is the only thing another dog can realistically transmit to your puppy.

I don't really get new puppy owners who are worried about "germs" until after vaccinations. There is only one disease - parvovirus - which the vaccinations are going to protect your puppy from. Nothing else. And after your puppy is vaccinated and on the ground, he will be just as exposed to all other diseases, parasites and bacteria as before the vaccinations.

Vaccinations are not some "protect against everything that exists" thing. They protect really against ONE disease (usefully, in the UK).

> I have friends with adult dogs and wondered if I could maybe take him round to their gardens to introduce him to other dogs in a controlled environment.

Yes Do this as much as possible

I agree with most of your post 1234, except this part...

>Keep the older dog on leash and allow the pup to move away if he wants to.

It may be breed type dependent but I always just plonk pup down amongst off lead dogs, the adults can do as they wish, some might play with pup, most will avoid pup and some will tell pup off if it's too forward, no harm ever comes to puppy and it learns to be part of the gang, to read doggy language and mind it's manners. I had a puppy party in the garden here last week, 11 adult dogs of various breeds all off lead doing their own thing and one 13 week old puppy learning where he fits with other dogs. If all the adults had been on lead it would have been a very different scenario, they would feel trapped by the pup and more likely to tell it off and they'd be miserable. I much prefer natural interactions without human interference.

I'll add a disclaimer though that my breed, and most of my friends dogs are sighthounds, they love being in packs and they're generally gregarious with their own type without being OTT. I'd be a lot more careful inviting any bull breeds or less tolerant breeds to a puppy party.

I think maybe it depends on how much you trust the older dog and also, if a dog is being bugged by a puppy and there are lots of other dogs around, they can easily slip away and the pup will go bug someone else. But if it's one on one, a pup only has that single dog to focus on.

Otherwise I totally agree and that sounds excellent.

One of my favourite places when I was socialising River was a large Go Outdoors shop. Loads of different things for him to see and sniff, tents to explore, staff that would literally put a call on the radio about the adorable little puppy so other staff members could come and say hello, and sometimes dogs to meet.

There’s a life-sized plastic horse in the equestrian section which I wanted to make sure he was comfortable around as I heard dogs often get worried about statues, etc. Mirrors close to the floor so you can see what the shoes you’re trying on look like (bark bark bark the first time but totally ignored the second time). And a fun little bridge for testing how those shoes feel going up and down hills, which River loves to walk across.

Brilliant idea! I think they’re going to be swamped with puppies now though!

Mirrors close to the floor so you can see what the shoes you’re trying on look like (bark bark bark the first time but totally ignored the second time

Years back took youngster Rott into a china shop - I know - risky she went round the corner and came face with a bit larger than life size sitting china Cavalier. Stopped dead - barked several times and sat - model got patted so she sniffed it then completely ignored it.

> ..... came face with a bit larger than life size sitting china Cavalier.

LOL.  That reminds me of an occasion when my husband bought a life-sized sitting Basset.  A tricolour.  He carried it in from the car and the entire 'pack' went into high alert - hackles up - 'what is it'.  Once he put the 'Basset' down, they all gathered around but then looked rather embarrassed, and moved off.

Sadly I had to leave that behind when we came back to the UK - with a good friend in the breed.  I must ask if she still her it.

As for mirrors close to the floor - this is the way I found out how best to present my hound to a judge, so they became very used to that.

Thanks for all the responses! I would've replied sooner but I'm in that initial sleep-deprived stage of puppy ownership

Just back from his first vet visit and he was great. Really chilled out, even fell asleep towards the end of the appointment! He'll get his second vaccinations one week today so can get him properly out and about one week later according to the vet. We had a good chat about socialisation and she said to keep him away from parks etc as there's much more risk but that he can meet other healthy, fully vaccinated dogs, preferably indoors, but also in a residential garden.

She said that's what she'd do if he was her puppy and agreed that it's important to socialise him safely with other dogs now instead of completely waiting until a week after second vaccinations. So glad that this is the vet I've chosen as her outlook is really balanced and positive in terms of puppy's overall development, not just physical.

I love the Go Outdoors idea for a visit. I hadn't thought about using outdoor shops but it makes so much sense as there are so many great things for him to see and do! Thanks for that tip :)

I took one of my pups to a pet shop once and she was having a great time climbing around over piles of dog beds and doing crazy zooming from one to another.... until she suddenly did a wee in one

A wee update... So the first visit to another dog in a safe garden area happened yesterday. He barked quite a lot at the older dog and seemed quite scared, hiding behind me or my partner :(  He gradually got a tiny bit more confident as the time went on but still wasn't up for playing or anything, just getting close enough to be almost face to face with the spaniel but then backing off. I'm beating myself up a lot as I'd hoped it'd be a nice relaxed and fun encounter for everyone.

As for going out and about otherwise, I've been trying to take him out every day, just carrying him in different locations. Sometimes he's been absolutely fine, seemed quite relaxed but the past few days he's seemed more agitated. For example, took him out just now for a short walk around a new area nearby and it was like he had ants in his pants, trying to climb out the bag, then started to bark and whine so we headed home but it was still maybe 10mins walk to get back home. I just feel awful and don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Sorry to use this post as a rant, but I thought I was going about everything the right way and I feel like I'm letting him down. He's started getting a bit growly and snappy when I lift him up to take him to the toilet which is also a new thing.

Pups don't usually like being picked up unless it's necessary so I wouldn't be doing that.
If they have a fear of something then take it slowly with the object, animal or human at a distant and slowly build it up yo lessen the gap. As soon as fear is shown you've moved a step too quickly

Dont stress yourself out, we all have these idyllic views of how raising a puppy is going to be. I dont think there can be a one size fits all approach, and the reality is always somewhat different.
My youngest boy is nothing like his older half brother, hes sensitive and wary of new people and situations.
He has been like that since 8 weeks old, and despite doing everything you are supposed to regarding socialisation he has never really got over his wariness. Hes a happy dog, and loves interacting with other dogs and going out and about but will tell people if they are too close, and is definately not a fuss pot like his older brother.
I do also think that sometimes we are so fixated on doing as much as we can with them before 16 weeks, we forget that some pups just need more time, and all these new sights and sounds can be overwhelming.

Every time you pick him up to take him out, I'd be giving him a treat so that he associates it with something positive. It is necessary to pick puppies up - otherwise you will have toilet accidents if you're relying on them somehow getting themselves out in time and they are any distance from a doorway.

I hate to say it but when I read your earlier post about him barking, I didn't have a good feeling about it. That's not normal baby puppy behaviour, it's the behaviour of a puppy which is scared. It's really important that you are doing the right things so that you don't make things worse and I'd recommend seeing a force-free behaviourist or trainer in a 1-2-1 way so you can get the help you need. You can also enrol in a force-free puppy socialisation class - but only if it is really well run and well supervised and the pups are not pushed faster than they can handle. But please don't struggle along on your own like this. And it's likely to be a genetic and not anything you have done or not done, so don't blame yourself.

You only have a limited amount of time for the socialisation period, to try to fix things, and if you are too anxious to introduce him to things because you're worried about disease risk or how things will go etc, you're going to run out of time. It will be too late to make rapid progress later, as the pup will be outside the socialisation period. So don't waste time, try to find someone to help now...

I hope.the more experienced trainers here agree but given at the moment u are not always getting positive reactions from him I would back off for a day or two and do enjoyable.things  with him at home
As much as we want to expose our pups to.everything sometimes it becomes too much and they become over stimulated and  need to take time 0ut.
The re are various analogies about buckets and overflowing and ladders needing to climb back down but it boils down to taking time out. Not with the toilet trying and good force free training u are doing at home . Give yourself a rest to u will feel better and as 1234 says a good force free 1 21 trainer who understands the problems.  Take time to find one apdt is one good place to look