Hi All,

We currently have a litter of 8 pups, one which sadly passed away last night, and 2 are currently in the vets but not looking hopeful and we expect the worst for them.

The pups are now 22 days old. This is our 3rd litter, albeit the first litter with this bitch, the previous 2 being with her mother, which of course she is one of.

We lost a couple of puppies with grandmothers last litter and learnt from here about Canine Herpes virus and with this bitch we got the two vaccinations.

All puppies were doing well until this week when we saw weight loss with 3 of them and started to supplement milk from mother with no improvements.

We took them to the vet on Thursday along with mother. The vet, gave all 3 week puppies an antibiotic injection and anti sickness injection along with dispensing probiotic paste to help sooth any tummy issues.

Mother was given a clean bill of health with no mastitis  or milk issues.

We wormed all puppies on day 14,15 and 16 with Panacur 10%, and the mother with a worming tablet prescribed by the vet as well as fleas treating the mother with a spot on liquid.

Worming the nursing mother is the only thing we can think of we did differently with this litter, and while it may be coincidence this seems to also be when the pups took a downturn.

All pups were doing well and gaining weight along with the usual milestones being met and coming to the end of the fading puppy syndrome time of risk.

As I said, the last 2 week ones are still at the vets, on a drip to see if they can improve. We use a very experienced vet with regards to breeding and he said this morning that they shouldn't have deteriorated this late and that they showed no signs of pain but are failing.

My partner blames worming the mum and thinks the wormer used might have gone into the milk and caused an issue with these pups, though the other 5 are doing great.

It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of learning.

Any suggestions

Thanks

When doing our litters, we wormed the dam before she was mated.  We then wormed the puppies, using Sherleys worming syrup at the second week, at which time we wormed mum again, using Panacur.  Puppies were wormed every 2 weeks with Sherleys to the time they went home, and instructions for the new owners to re worm at 3 months, or prior need as advised by their vet.

I don't think what you are seeing has to do with worming, but it could be Fading Puppy Syndrome.  Sadly.  But just a guess.

https://animalso.com/fading-puppy-syndrome/

Thanks

I was praying to avoid fading puppy syndrome and had hoped that a couple of days prior to 3 weeks we were past the risk.

Especially as she had the canine Herpes vaccine this time which her mother didn't.

I know that the Panacur data sheet says you can worm them from 2 weeks, but I've always thought that to be incredibly early - before they are eating any solids and when the only thing they've consumed is their mother's milk, I don't think it's great to worm them that early. I always wait till 3wks and I am giving their first sloppy food, before I worm.

But it would be a bit much for them to have gone downhill this fast just due to a wormer. I'd think there must be something else going on. And if it happens to several pups, likely not something congenital but an infection or bacteria or virus. If you lose any, do ask the vet to do an autopsy. It's easy to see herpes on the autopsy but if you had the jabs, they are very effective so I would think it couldn't be that... Did the pups get colostrum? Did you supplement with anything in the first 24hrs of life? Has mum been vaccinated in the last few years? Just wondering if it could be Parvo. They would usually get immunity from mum's milk that early but if mum isn't immune, they won't... or if they didn't get colostrum, they wouldn't have got that immunity either.

Could it be the spot on product given for fleas? Could these three pups have come in contact with the area it was put? Did the mother have fleas, if not was it necessary to treat?

Why did you give a nursing dam a spot on flea treatment.
I think that's more likely to have hurt the pups than the worm treatment.
I really don't understand this trend to constantly give flea treatments.
Im sure flea treatments shouldn't be given to pups under a certain age and never had the need to do so at any age.

Hi All

We flea'd because a family friend brought their dog around uninvited and it was riddled with fleas so we thought it would be proactive to treat and protect the pups. We did leave mum outside for a while in the sun to dry the neck but we live and learn, wont be doing it again.

Mum and all our dogs are recently in to date with vaccines and vet said it very unlikely parvo as mum is up to date.

Good news we are not long back from the vets with 2 puppies, vet spent the day rehydrating them and they are much perkier.

We have to not feed milk for 24 hours and have to tube feed 20ml lifeaid water every 2 hours to both of them and try tomorrow with royal canin mouse to see of we can start to wean them.

Fingers crossed, so happy to have them back as we were prepared for the worst

Thanks

I would be more concerned about the Spot on treatment Mum had, as I believe none if thise are suutable for puppies due to being highly concentrated. Frontline Spray is OK wuth pups as it's more dilute (you soray a lot more all over).

I have bred 8 generations (25 litters) worming with Panacur 10% through last 3 weeks of pregnancy and then worming pups at 3 and 7 weeks.

Only time I had a problem was worming at 2 and 5 weeks in my second litter, and went back to only doing pups twice (as instructed by vet with first litter, when they dispensed it) and starting a week later, due to doing Mum in pregnancy would mean puos birn 98% worm free.

I start weaning at 18 days, with just a taster, though have started as soon as eyes open with puppy food mixed to a gruel with puppy milk, if weight gain tapering off.

> I've always thought that to be incredibly early - before they are eating any solids and when the only thing they've consumed is their mother's milk, I don't think it's great to worm them that early. I always wait till 3wks and I am giving their first sloppy food, before I worm.

Exactly this.

Thanks to everyone

I am learning more from every litter and will reconsider the worming dates of any future litters.

I did state to the vet that mum was nursing when buying the spot on who told me it was fine. I wont take that risk again

> Im sure flea treatments shouldn't be given to pups under a certain age and never had the need to do so at any age.

Totally 100% agree.  I check my gang for fleas.  And never find any!  Why would I want to put chemicals on them?

My 13 year old was admitted for a bowel operation on Thursday. The admission questionnaire included whether his worming and flea treatments were up to date. The least of his problems. I worm twice a year with the 7-day Panacur course, (to cover for lungworm), but I haven't seen a flea in 30 years.

Which spot-on was it exactly?

Hi
The vet prescribed Selehold spot on treatment

The active ingredient is Selamectin.

We are 24 hours with the 2 weak ones returning from the vet, and after a tired night of tube feeding lifeaid every 2 hours. Pups are slowly on the mend and have managed a few licks of Royal Canin Starter Mouse, so we are heading in the right direction.

I always worm the bitch at the same time as I worm the puppies, with the same product. With the addition of the wormer in the Selehold getting into her milk it's possible that the combination was too much for the puppies.

I checked the data sheet. It does say that it's safe during lactation and pregnancy but it also says not to use it on puppies under 6 weeks.

My gut feeling is that it is the flea treatment.  I never ever give flea treatments to my dogs unless they actually have fleas, and especially never to a dog that is pregnant or feeding puppies (which I would guess she still is?).

I always feel 2 weeks is too early and worm at 3 weeks, and I have also found with Panacur that it can be a bit harsh on puppies for their first worming and cause upset tummies.  I use Drontal for the first worm at 3 weeks, then Panacur after that.  I attended a seminar on diarrhoea in young puppies and the big thing I learnt is that worming and weaning at the same time can cause it.  My breed are a toy breed so I worm at 3 weeks then start weaning at 4 weeks.