Hi,
I'm after some advice from an experienced breeder as I'm relatively new to breeding.
I am passionate about lurchers, have owned them for over 30 years, and have wanted to breed them for nearly as long, but only now have the space and time to do it properly.
I have 2 bitches, and I am particularly interested in the collie cross lurchers and so I have been trying to cross one of my bitches with a border collie - she already has a fair amount of long dog in her mix (greyhound x deerhound x saluki) so I wanted to cross her with a collie to get a half collie cross.
The difficulty I am discovering is getting a successful mating!!
I tried crossing her with a friends working border (a really good farm dog who has had one litter before) but  penetration/locking/tie never happened. Just lots of thrusting but no obvious engagement- a slip mating?
No pups resulted. She only comes in season every 11 months so this time (a few weeks ago) I wanted to make sure of it as I was so disappointed not to get a litter last time.
I found a "proven" stud on pets4homes who's owner told me how good he was, especially if you get the timing in the bitch right.. he was very confident there would be pups guaranteed. So I travelled across the country but we tried several matings to no avail.. no tie! At first I was told she was probably to early (day 12) - let me just add that my bitch stands really well from about day 10 to day 18/19. So I spent quite a bit going to their vets while there, to get her progesterone tested etc and we tried again on the optimum days..right up to day 19.
The problem seems to be with the dog "finding the target ". Now let me add, she is taller so I'm aware this can make it tricky, but we used props and banks etc to raise the dogs height, but all to no avail. My bitch stood, was flagging, but eventually she just seemed to get bored / fed up with the dog not "getting in" so to speak.
I also checked her with my vet when I got back to see if she had any problem with her vulva etc. All seems fine.
My question is, are collies known for lots of busy thrusting but no penetration?? Is it a problem with my bitch or the dog if no tie takes place? Is it a height difference issue?
The thing is, I tried my other bitch (she's 3/4 greyhound x 1/4 collie) with a smaller bedlington first cross last year (and she's not nearly so into mating, not a flirt at all) and we got a tie on the second go, no problem. Another "proven" dog but that one really was.
So can the mating game really be this difficult? I'm so disappointed to try for over a week, right through her peak period, and achieve no tie :-(
I tried to be hands on, guiding the dog in etc but as I say, I'm fairly inexperienced. But I did so much research etc and thought a "proven " dog would pretty much guarantee it, especially with how the owner "sold" his dog - reckoned he has mated bigger bitches as well before etc
I'm thinking of trying A.I next time. The owner also said he can send out sperm etc but it's not as reliable.
I'm now going to have to wait another year and my bitch will be nearly 4 by then. Can't quite say how sad and disappointed I am. I know she'll make the most amazing mum and will love having a litter..she's so "mumsy" with our other bitch who is 6 weeks younger!
Any advice from anyone who really knows alot about the "mating game" - I never realised how hard it would be to get a dog mated. I assumed that would be the easy bit haha!!

I know this isn't your question but very important none the less. have u done full health tests on your bitch ( all her breed background) and is the sire fully tested ?
Proven isn't sufficient unfortunately. 
As she won't be coming into season for a while if these havnt been done need u  have plenty of time .
I am sure others will help with the exact question as well

Many thanks for your prompt reply..as far as I know the dog has had health checks (how is it possible to check this if been told verbally..vet information is surely confidential or is there paperwork I can ask to see?)
And what exact health checks do I need to get for my bitch? Lurchers don't have any common problems like other pure breeds, that I know of.
Sorry to sound ignorant but I'm new to this! My other bitch is very healthy and had 9 perfect pups! :-) but no specific health checks other than regular vet appointments.

Basic health tests for a BC are a clinical eye test by a BVA eye panellist, hip & elbow scoring, full DNA panel for CEA(CH), TNS, MDR1 etc.

The lurcher will need all the tests normal with

Breeding is never easy - even experienced breeders/dogs fail to get a litter at times.
You are in a more difficult position by mating dogs of different breeds/sizes.  If you are going to try with a Border Collie again I would ensure it has had the recommended health tests done.  You are entitled to ask and see documentation. 
In theory you are breeding mongrels but still have a responsibility to both potential new owners and the puppies to ensure they will be fit and healthy. 
In this day and age, people are not afraid to sue if this isn't done.

If your vet has examed her for things like stritcher and given her the all clear I'd say it's likely a height issue. How much taller is she than the male? I know there can be size difference in farm collies I've seen some small and some taller.

Health testing wise I'm not sure if it's common in the lurcher community but personally I'd be testing my dogs for issues found in the breeds in their mix as recessive genes can be passed on threw the generations until you happen to breed two lurchers with the same breed/gene. Yes the higher diversity lowers the chances a pup will inherit two copies of the same gene but it's still a potential. If it was me I'd DNA test your girl for GN (Greyhound neuropathy) and Sal-NCL (Saluki Neruronal ceroid lipofuscinosis).

With collies the health testing your looking for is hip score, eye testing,  DNA testing for CEA/CH, NCL5, TNS,  minimum but also Gonio, SN, IGS, and MDR1. I'd using a collie stud the owner would be able to provide proof with the results of it it's kc reg you can find the results on the kc health test checker, not sure if isds show test results.

The sires owner should be able to show u copies of health tests done . They are not usually done by a general vet but by specialists and are not the same as a vet check or someone saying my dog is healthy . These conditions dint always show early or skip generations hence why specialist testing is needed 
Fortunately u have plenty of time to do all the tests as well as deciding which sire to use.
If u look at the deerhound club it gives u information on tests that should be done.  I think jo has mentioned tests for saluki and greys .

All breeds including mixed breeds potentially do have health problems.  So its responsible to do these tests to avoid as much as u can  anything that may appear in pups
If u think of the doodles .they are a cross breed much like a lurcher so the tests would need to be for both the breeds that produce a doodle regardless of  if its it labrador x poodle , cocker x poodle or one of the others if that makes sense

Do you know how many lurchers are PTS in the UK and Ireland? A lot.

Breeding crossbred dogs without a specific performance purpose, looking for a stud on 'Pets4Homes' (notoriously awful site full of puppy farmers), no evidence of what purpose you are breeding for... no health testing or understanding of it....

I really hope you don't manage to breed your dog.

Difficulties in mating - oh boy..... you should try getting Bassets together.  I had a good friend who could mate chairs to tables and to avoid messing around and getting nowhere, she agreed to let us take our male(s) to her and meet up with the owners of the bitches.   I gave her a percentage of the stud fee.   We'd have to sit on the ground with the bitch across our knee, guiding the boy inside.  And hoping at least for penetration.  One of my boys never achieved a tie - and after due time (when he'd gone down again) she'd upend the bitch to help what was there get to the 'right place'.   He only missed once (but he wasn't used that often as I turned down more enquiries than I accepted).

We did have one boy who helped himself.  If I were you, and you really want to do this, I'd take my bitch to the chosen male, and if yiou can't get a natural mating, get them both to his vet for an AI.   We had to do this once out in America when the male we wanted really wasn't interested, to the disgust of our bitch has to be said.  His vet said she was spot on, so did a collection and dod the impregnation right there and then.  She conceived.

I regret I am with those who say why are you deliberately mating your bitch - surely there are enough Lurcher-type puppies around and Pets4 is really a rubbish website used mainly by BYBs.

Many thanks for all the replies and really helpful information... and sharing of experiences ..I very much appreciate those who've taken the time to offer advice and impart knowledge.
As for the negative responses..it's easy to get into 'spats' on a forum such as this, and it's also easy to make assumptions without knowing someone or what efforts they have gone through to do what they are doing.
Suffice to say my first breeding (and everyone has to start somewhere) was very successful and I’ve had nothing but positive feedback and very happy customers (who have all become friends I can keep up with and watch each offsprings developments..). The pups all ended up in fantastic forever homes and are all well loved and cared for.. with myself receiving 5 star reviews from all of them because of the sheer amount of work and effort I put into each pup, the care of my bitch and attention to detail with each new owner, with daily updates etc on mums pregnancy and pups development.
So please don't judge whether I should breed or not when it's not something I've rushed into in any way whatsoever, and I haven't gone into here about all my own research into various aspects of breeding.
As for 'dogs bred for specific purpose' ...please no one is that naive surely? Of all the purebred spaniels, collies, labs, deerhounds etc etc I expect less than 5% I'm guessing actually get used for what they are bred for..very few are worked or used for the traits they were bred for, and most go for pets. With varying degrees of exercise depending on the commitment and responsibility level of the owner.
As for finding studs on pets4homes (which I guessed would get some criticism

Many thanks for all the replies and really helpful information... and sharing of experiences ..I very much appreciate those who've taken the time to offer advice and impart knowledge.
As for the negative responses..it's easy to get into 'spats' on a forum such as this, and it's also easy to make assumptions without knowing someone or what efforts they have gone through to do what they are doing.
Suffice to say my first breeding (and everyone has to start somewhere) was very successful and I’ve had nothing but positive feedback and very happy customers (who have all become friends I can keep up with and watch each offsprings developments..). The pups all ended up in fantastic forever homes and are all well loved and cared for.. with myself receiving 5 star reviews from all of them because of the sheer amount of work and effort I put into each pup, the care of my bitch and attention to detail with each new owner, with daily updates etc on mums pregnancy and pups development.
So please don't judge whether I should breed or not when it's not something I've rushed into in any way whatsoever, and I haven't gone into here about all my own research into various aspects of breeding.
As for 'dogs bred for specific purpose' ...please no one is that naive surely? Of all the purebred spaniels, collies, labs, deerhounds etc etc I expect less than 5% I'm guessing actually get used for what they are bred for..very few are worked or used for the traits they were bred for, and most go for pets. With varying degrees of exercise depending on the commitment and responsibility level of the owner.
As for finding studs on pets4homes (which I guessed would get some criticism

It is quite hard to find pure breeders willing to outcross (easier with borders than beardies for sure) despite the trend with all the doodle crosses these days..funny when Lurchers have been around for hundreds of years with relatively few health problems compared with the pure breeds (which let's face it all began as crosses of course) - it seems extremely short sighted I.m.h.o to try and take the moral high ground when many pure breeds have health problems due to exactly that.. pure breeding! But this is another debate that could go on and on and open up a whole new can of works I have no interest in arguing about!
The point is my question was about the specifics and technical details of mating. I'm finding there's precious little really good and detailed information/advice on this, but I am learning its certainly not as straightforward as I originally thought would be the case - and I'm not sure what the health checks (important as they obviously are..) have to do with the mechanics of getting "the mating job" done..?
I was told by one "experienced" collie stud owner that it is nearly always a problem with the dog..and I wondered how much truth was in that? As although some replies have implied that the height difference could be the issue.. as I said my other bitch and smaller stud dog achieved one tie...and 9 beautiful pups...no problem.
Maybe Ai is the way forward with 2 successive failures

>Of all the purebred spaniels, collies, labs, deerhounds etc etc I expect less than 5% I'm guessing actually get used for what they are bred for..very few are worked or used for the traits they were bred for, and most go for pets.

I think you'll find that GOOD breeders, breed for a purpose - but not all puppies in a litter will go to performance or show homes. They won't all be suitable. The remainder of the puppies go as pets. But that is not what the litter was bred FOR, in the first place.

A good breeder isn't just breeding to produce puppies....

>I'm not sure what the health checks (important as they obviously are..) have to do with the mechanics of getting "the mating job" done..?

They have to do with the fact that many forum members don't want to give you advice on the 'mechanics of getting the mating job done' when you are deliberately breeding un-health tested crossbreeds for no known purpose. Because members don't want to facilitate the breeding of litters like this.

>The point is my question was about the specifics and technical details of mating.

Good luck with that. When you have a fully health-tested female, and you have carefully chosen your equally health-tested desired male to reproduce specific qualities you want to see in your lines for a purpose (which, if lurchers, is going to be a performance or working purpose) then feel free to ask again and I'd warrant get a better and wider range of responses.

I think you need to get over yourself and learn not to use CAPS when having a discussion with someone. Your judgemental attitude and people skills I sincerely hope don't reflect your lack of professionalism if you are a breeder (I hope not).
I'm afraid I have to disagree with much of what you say and unfortunately you highlight and expose the negatives about certain breeders.
There have been some fantastic and detailed responses from breeders here, who are clearly a whole lot more respectful and professional than you.
I have no wish to continue a spat with you so please try to think first, and stop yourself, before continuing with such negative interaction with another human being. I certainly hope you treat your dogs with more respect.

I like lurchers, does it have to be collie though? going to end up with high percentage collie in that mix which may be rather harder work for average family then a pet owner would want.  Just thinking collies aren't greatest choice as laid back family pets for most people...

ps I notice your last litter was beddy cross- now beddy crosses are very popular so not so tricky to find good homes- I am not quite so convinced a collie cross would attract such a crowd of homes.  I really am not being nasty but do think about it please.

I don't think that's nasty at all and thank you for your interest and more intelligent input..
Gosh this is such a big subject and difficult to go into enough detail here! But some really good points there.. and here's my thoughts (for what their worth..and only an opinion)
I've owned lurchers and mixed with others (and other breeds) for around 30 years.
I do think half collie lurchers are the best..(for what, you may ask...well let's stick to pets for now, despite some opinions here that dogs are primarily bred for working ;-)  - and this probably stems from the fact that they were the best lurchers we've had so far (let me quickly say I've loved them all immensely though!). The collie brings intelligence and trainability into a single minded coursing/long dog which equally can be difficult for some pet owners to manage (typically the recall / stock control / high prey drive aspects etc)
However.. I agree with you about collies, but I also think all dogs are essentially individuals, like humans, and whilst you can breed for certain traits, there's no guarantee.. and I've seen hyper, neurotic collies as well as cool and calm ones, intelligent...and stupid ones!! (And let's not start the debate about what intelligence is..is it easy trainability...or a questioning thinks for themselves type attitude...and with that a less biddable dog?)
So while I agree collies can be too eager and active for most (I think collies are best working or with a very active family myself...), I do think having only half a collie can still produce a very calm lurcher. Having said that my 3/4x1/4 greyhound collie bitch acts(and looks) much more like a half collie cross..and of the 1/8 border, 1/8 beardy, she's sooooo much more beardy!
The trouble is breeding is not an exact science, as I'm sure you know and sound very knowledgeable of.
So my reasons are long and complex but please don't think I haven't studied, researched and lived with this cross.
And what you say is exactly why I didn't want to cross my other bitch with a collie..she already has enough, despite being 3/4 greyhound. Having said that, there's no reason to be sure she wouldn't produce some great pups/pets if crossed with the right collie.
I think also one has to be careful not to pre judge all the potential dog owners out there.. there are plenty of people leading a very active lifestyle (including me!) walking up munros etc who will give an eager and energetic dog an extremely good home.
Unfortunately there are also many owners who think a dog is a good idea until their life gets too busy, or doesn't research dog characteristics enough and end up getting a most unsuitable breed for their pet.
So I try to give potential owners as much info and detail as possible and vet them thoroughly before parting with any pup :-)
Just some of my humble opinions - but just to add, I know the traits of my bitches really well, which helps when deciding on a potential stud..what characteristics you're trying to lessen or increase. Though of course there's no accounting for throwbacks and quirks of nature!!

I would agree with weimed

The owner of a bitch I bred (tracking breed, that at home has an off switch and fairly easy to live with) ill advisedly allowed her to have a litter with a Border Collie.

When she couldn't home the pups I and friends in my breed homed them.

Only the pups who went to Collie/shepherd owners coped well with them.

They did not have the characteristics to make them suitable for those used to my breed, and one needed further re-homing to Collie experienced owner.

The remaining one had a job to do being a companion to a blind dog.

My very experienced Dog Trainer who has one of them, and previously had one of my purebreds (primarily owns collies and rescues) maintains anything with a Collie parent needs to be treated/trained like a Collie, and needs more than a pet home.

I would steer clear of the advertised dog you tried.

Most people choose a stud on it's traits, and those of his ancestors, easier with purebred with recorded ancestry.

In personal experience of 8+ generations of breeding  behaviour and temperament traits are as heritable as physical ones.

That is why those who breed working dogs practice selective breeding on performance. Guide Dogs, Police etc have a higher success rate for workers in litters, than a  pup from a litter of the same breed with wider selection criteria applied.

As you mix in doggy circles, and seem to have an idea of what you wish to achieve, then you need to find a male with the character you want, and those important health tests.

You are fortunate that Greyhounds have virtually no Hip Dysplasia, but untested Collies especially pose a big risk there.

My neighbour has had a greyhound cross rough collie and his current dog, a whippet crossed with a short coated border collie. Both have been more relaxed then I would have expected given the collie input.

I fully believe that!
But the previous nobrainer post I find really perplexing
The collie I went to did have the traits I was after and health tested (though do check this.. noted

Sorry Brainless I mean..
hat's really interesting thanks.
Collie was of good working stock lineage - has had litters before which is why I started to think my bitch is the problem..then another (supposed) expert collie breeder said its nearly always a problem with the stud's experience if they don't manage a tie.. really hard to know who's right with so many strong opinions out there! Welcome to the dog world!
As for half collie crosses that's really interesting also. Mine were easy to train and extremely calm around the house (and whilst I've trained alot of dogs I'm not going to make out I'm an expert!) Also they were calm with only one short walk a day for several days..we would normally do bigger walks however more often. And all the others in the litter were handled by "pet owners" with no collie experience or any dog experience in a couple of cases.
However our second set of lurchers (bedlington crosses) one was not very biddable or easy but the other was much easier to train..again, both calm in the house. But the difference re ability and trainability was noticible when compared with our first dogs.
The 3rd set..one was the hardest to get certain training done..really really difficult..to the extent I slightly neglected the training in my other easier bitch..
But now she is incredible despite taking alot more work than I usually have to put I with my dogs. She's always been ridiculously relaxed around the home though and extremely affectionate.
I also know a few pure collie owners who have them as pets and find them excellent and easy (though they are quite active people) but I also know someone who had a working farm collie offspring that was terrible.. a nightmare with sheep,,very neurotic and impossible in a car.
It just goes to show, but that's good to be aware of your experience with collie crosses etc, I am just somewhat surprised that all were a nightmare..almost sounds like not good breeding? Or somewhat negative traits there, as it hasn't been my personal experience. (I did know someone who's part collie cross was a nightmare but they hated walking and definitely didn't exercise the dog enough..just wanted a companion without the work I think!! Silly choice eh?

yep and thats just it- most people imagine they will magically suddenly enjoy lots of exercise when get a dog. and they lie and claim they love it!!!    If they don't enjoy lots of exercise pre dog then its unlikely their keeness will stay . and a dog bred for plenty of exercise simply won't cope with 3/4 of an hour twice a day.  a bored dog denied proper exercise and brain work soon becomes the problem dog sold or dumped on rescue.

a lot of people shouldn't have a dog. others should pick a low energy quiet couch potato.

I once spoke to a weimaraner breeder who as part of owner selection took the prospective buyers on a two hour walk with dogs - if they couldn't keep up or whinged they got dumped off list

Perhaps the Primitive intelligence self reliant and 'think for themselves' traits of my breed combined with Collie brains is just too much smarts.

Spot on! And great tactic, I like it ☺

>Your judgemental attitude and people skills I sincerely hope don't reflect your lack of professionalism if you are a breeder (I hope not).

Unfortunately people often post on the forum expecting A and getting B. I'm sorry you don't like to hear things you don't want to hear. People don't always answer the question you ask... that's how things go.

And I agree, I am 100% 'judgemental' of your decision to breed in the way you've described and I'm not trying to hide it, either.

When dogs in Ireland are being destroyed in quantity and on a regular basis (frequently lurchers), I can't support the deliberate breeding of more - when they are bred without health-testing and not for any purpose other than to be a dog in someone's house.

And yes, I am a breeder - whatever that means. (You are one, too, having bred a litter.)

A friend of mine has always owned large sighthounds. They have or had Collies living next door and she always said that when her girls are in season even though they have such high fencing the thought of this mix fills her with dread. A hunting dog with the brains of a Collie is really not a good combo. As with any cross you may get the best or the worst traits from parents and going back.
I do have to ask why use a working line Collie if these pups will be going into pet homes and not into homes which will work them. A showline Collie would be a better option however I can't imagine any owner would want if their dog is decent wanting to get involved in mixed breeding.

I think unless they have a purpose as in you have a lot of working homes then creating more of this mix isn't a good idea.

Out of interest should anyone not be able to keep their dog anymore would you take the dog back regardless of age and its behaviour?

There is a brilliant group on Facebook called Functional Breeding that is strictly monitored and supportive of outcrossing. You might find that helpful :)

Thank you so much, really helpful..just signed up! :-) Now how refreshing and healthy is that attitude to breeding and accepting other points of view!

> I sincerely hope don't reflect your lack of professionalism if you are a breeder

1234 is not a professional breeder, they're a knowledgeable, responsible breeder there's a world of difference in the descriptions. A professional breeder breeds to sell pups,  a responsible breeder breeds to improve the gene pool of their chosen breed.

That said I love lurchers, my own silken windhounds were developed from small, long coated lurchers (thought to be whippet x sheltie) and borzoi, but they've been health tested for literally everything possible. Personally I would not add collie to the mix without some health testing, at the very least knowing the MDR1 status of the dog because even though your bitch (theoretically) cannot carry the MDR1 gene if the dog is affected pups will all be carriers, and carriers can still have problems with some medicines. A vet may not necessarily think that a long legged houndy looking dog has collie in it and could prescribe the wrong drug with disastrous effects. Also can you be 100% sure that your girl doesn't have a smidging of collie way back and could also potentially be MDR1 positive? You wouldn't think looking at silkens that they can carry CEA and MDR1 from a long distant sheltie ancestor.

As for can breeding really be that difficult, yes absolutely! I have spent days and days trying all day to get a tie with visiting girls, they have always been successful eventually but it does occasionally take an awful lot of faffing around. It's not worth the hassle if you were just interested in the money, I only do it because I care deeply about my breed. That might be why it's hard to find a collie owner willing to put the effort in to achieve a tie for a low stud fee and a litter they're probably not interested in at all.

Another thing which hasnt been raised is if either have merle in their genetics? If so then you need to test on that as doubling up on the merle gene is a no no