Hi all,

Silly question maybe but how can a novice tell a good breeder from a bad breeder? I am well aware of ensuring that the puppies are vaccinated, microchipped and health checked before joining a new home and I'm comfortable with all this. However, is it normal for breeders to keep newborn puppies in a separate room and not amongst the family? Also, if a dog breeder has have several dogs I presume it's normal that they live in a kennel but how to I know if the kennel is of a good standard. Anything to look out for? Finally is it normal for stud dogs living in a kennel not to be house trained?

Thank you and hope my questions make sense.

>I am well aware of ensuring that the puppies are vaccinated, microchipped and health checked

You're wrong on at least one of those. A 'good' breeder usually is knowledgeable enough to realise that it's not a good idea to vaccinate puppies because both vaccines need to be the same brand. If the breeder's vet uses one brand and the new owner's vet uses another, the vaccine course will need to be restarted from scratch. Leading to the puppy receiving more vaccines than needed.

As for 'health checked', that is also debatable. If a breeder needs to see a vet to get the pups chipped, it's easy enough to get them health-checked too, but if a breeder is a chipper (as I am and many others are), then there isn't really a reason for them to get pups health-checked considering that most new owners are going to take the pup to their own vet immediately - and presumably will feel more reassured with their own vet's response to their puppy.

>However, is it normal for breeders to keep newborn puppies in a separate room and not amongst the family?

If puppies are newborn then the mother will want to have somewhere private to raise them and have the whelping box located. It may well be in a separate room. From 4 weeks onwards, pups should be experiencing everything a household has to offer.

>Also, if a dog breeder has have several dogs I presume it's normal that they live in a kennel

I wouldn't keep dogs in kennels. Dogs need human contact IMO. Their brain has a part of it dedicated to human-dog relationships. They have evolved alongside us. I believe it is cruel to keep dogs in kennels, unless it's literally just for an hour or so or overnight. I wouldn't put my best friend outside away from me, where they have restricted access to contact with people or other dogs and limited access to enriching activities. If a breeder has so many dogs they need to kennel them, then they have too many dogs to care for. There's only so much one person can do and so many hours in a day. What's next, it's ok to stack dogs in cages because when you have a certain number of dogs that's what you need to do? I realise that might kick off a huge debate but... whatever. It's what I think. At some point in the future, we will think it barbaric that we kept dogs outside in the conditions so many dogs are kept in.

>Anything to look out for?

If you are looking at purchasing a puppy raised in a kennel environment, I really wouldn't purchase one if you want to stack the deck in your favour - purchase a puppy raised in the house, with the family around, and spending maybe part of their time in an outdoor run or kennel but also a good amount of time exposed to normal household noises and experiences.

>Finally is it normal for stud dogs living in a kennel not to be house trained?

Probably. If they don't live in a house, how can they be house-trained?

most breeders live with their dogs in their homes as they are pets first and breeding dogs 2nd.  If they aren't pets then I question why they have them. -to earn money off them? not nice. 
some have kennels too and dogs may spend some time in there but they should all be housetrained as they are pets and dogs that spend a lot of time with their owners.

Puppies and mum I would expect to have their own place, a well designed heated/cooled room or possibly well designed luxury kennel that the breeder spends a LOT of time in - she is having privacy not isolation.  As her other dogs are likely free range round house you wouldn't want the mum and pups harassed by nosy dogs so she and litter need a little place to feel safe.   

Health checks should be all the very expensive tests done on the parents before the mating took place- and there will be certificates to prove them that the breeder will proudly show you.   and you should be able to look them up online too to check their legality. The breeder will also happily tell you the pedigree names of the parents so you can look them up.

A good breeder will ask you lots of questions, whether you rent or own your home, is there a well fenced garden, how many hours a day will a puppy have to be alone, what will you do on holidays, they will want to meet all human members of the household -and will check your children are well behaved and nice to dogs.   They won't want a deposit until they have really grilled you and met you and decided whether you will suit one of the pups.

a good breeder will expect you to come and view the pups in their home, they will not offer to sell you two together, they won't meet you somewhere to hand over a puppy without you having seen home it was bred, The puppy will not have a pet passport as it will have been bred here not transported hundreds of miles, the puppy will not be handed over before 8 weeks - they need that time with litter to mature and socialise- if its a tiny breed then it may be 12 weeks old before ready

when you view the pups the mum will be with her puppies, the puppies will be plump, bright eyed, bold and playful, mum will look happy to see the breeder-observe mum's temperament- if she is iffy so likely will the pups be , avoid quiet puppies that look sad, puppies with bulging bellies but thin flanks, puppies with tear stains from their eyes, puppies should never be fearful.  The brood room should be clean and smell reasonable- yes the pups will poop a lot but they should not be caked in it, nor should the room look dirty,  

before viewing pups google the breeder, the location and kennel name- and look them up on facebook.  If there is a page of angry puppy buyers you know to avoid.  and googling address is worth while too.

good luck

I would imagine it's not easy as scammers/puppy farmers are probably very clever at selling nowadays.

I am a breeder so don't have much experience of buying in but in relation to the stud dog - all of the studs I have visited are not only show/working dogs but family pets and adored by their owners.  So definitely house trained.  I suppose the exception could be if it was a fully working dog i.e. sheepdog

Yes, all puppies should be microchipped, it's now the law.  If done by a vet they would certainly give a health check at the same time.  I chip my own litters but also take them to the vet for a health check.  I do not vaccinate as pups still have access to mum until they leave home.  They will carry her antibodies for some while and don't need the vaccination at 8 weeks.  Even the manufacturers advise 10 weeks (Nobivac) and then they may only need one jab.

Finally, puppies living separately - NO.  Once whelping is over my pups come into the kitchen where its the heart of my home.  Other dogs are kept away for a few days to give mum time to recover from delivery but from then on, gradually I let them have a peep and it's often from then on that grannie, great-grannie and aunties will pop in to clean and play with them. 

All in all, my advice is to step away

Great advice and lots of really helpful comments and all are so relevant in this mad situation re demand for puppies.  However there are a couple of responses to the OP that can be viewed as 'misguided'.

> If they aren't pets then I question why they have them .  > to earn money off them? not nice.

So just to claify, any breeder who earns profit from their dogs is a Bad Breeder and any breeder who doesn't deserves to be viewed as a reputable Breeder?
As a person involved with commercial shooting I have many dogs rotated over the shooting season - no individual can work every day.
Expensive health tests completed as highlighted previously.

I believe we have to be wary of using the 'umbrella approach' to anyone who doesn't fit into the 'reputable breeder' category conveyed.

No not earns money but breeds just for money and no other reason I belive is what was meant

There ste many eays people choose to live with dogs, especially if they have more than 1 or 2, both sexes, puppies to very old.

Ones home accomofation also makes a difference as to whether one has seperate/additional accomofation for the dogs, be it a dedicated room for the dogs, converted garage, utility room, or to some 'horror' kenneling.

The size/breed and sociability of the dogs will play a part.

There is no one right way to keep dogs.

Dogs require shelter food and companionship, excersise and arguably a job/change of scene/enrichment.

For example I like to spend time with my dogs, but do not want to spend every moment with them.

As a result I keep more than 1, so they have the natural companionship of their own species in addition to mine.

I don't have dogs upstairs, and generally don't have them on furniture.

Some of this is practcal, as I have better things to do than the extra housework and wear and tear this would cause.

As for breeding, any breed larger than a toy will require sime form of outside shelter for puppies once running around, in addition to warm indoor space, which may have to be in purpose built or repurposed accomodation.

When breeding a litter my bitches would require a place away from other dogs for 2 - 3 weeks, before joining other canines.

So to determine a goid or bad breeder one would take into account the temperament and health of the parent dogs (meet themt leadt mother and other relatives), and how they are cared for, and that they have a happy relationship with the breeder and are well socialised.

Ma y breeders and Stud dog owners for practical purposes choose to keep only one sex, and breeders most often will use an outside stud dog.

Personally I would question WHY a breeder had chosen to use their own dog.

> As for 'health checked', that is also debatable. If a breeder needs to see a vet to get the pups chipped, it's easy enough to get them health-checked too, but if a breeder is a chipper (as I am and many others are), then there isn't really a reason for them to get pups health-checked considering that most new owners are going to take the pup to their own vet immediately - and presumably will feel more reassured with their own vet's response to their puppy

All of my Puppies going to a new home leave with a full written report on their health (not just a quick once over and a signature on a vaccination record card). Just because you chip yourself doesn't warrant the non payment of vet fees for having a professional report to insure your puppy leaves in the peak of health and I advise to have a Puppy seen by their own vet within 5 days of collection and provide 5 weeks free insurance too alongside my Vet's contact details.

I agree that vaccinating is debatable and something I have considered stopping (previously, it was seen as something a responsible breeeder would take on board).  So many conflicting views and confusing for anyone reading the thread IMO

fair enough- i didn't really cover working dogs.  but working dogs are not just puppy producing machines- their work is the main thing and their relationship with their handler. Without their good working ability they would not be considered as suitable for producing a litter and that ability to work takes effort on part of breeder. and dogs only work really well if healthy and happy.

Its a different thing to those who buy half a dozen bitches and their sole purpose is producing puppies for profit- those poor creatures don't even usually get walked, just locked up with minimal attention , minimum effort to get maximum pups.  and that really isn't nice.

for me I want to see a relationship between the breeder and their dogs-I don't want to hand money to someone who views their dogs as ££ producing breeding stock that they have no emotional attachment to and has no interest in the happiness of their dogs.   If I were looking for a working dog- say a boarder collie - I would want to see proven working ability in the bitch and dog and that ability can only be proven if the bitch has a decent relationship with her handler.. I wouldn't want to buy one off someone who just has a load of collies locked in a barn and none of them know the keeper from Adam and are unable to work for him as he has never bothered to develop a relationship with them and train them.   you see what I mean?

See I have never previously seen it neccesary to take an obviously healthy litter to a vet, exposing them to potential hazards.

From a practcal viewpoint as a non driver it would have been difficult.

But my breed are not known to have any congenital issues that would be revealed on a standard health check before the one the new owners would undertake with their own vet.

Of course if there was a worry about an individual pup then it would be taken to the vet in the normal way.

My last litter was two years ago, and all being well the next won't be for 3 years.

Since 2016 I chipped my own last 3 litters.

Quite agree weimed, to me that kind of breeding, be it half a dozen, or a 100 bitches is not breeding as part of a life (working/sport/exhibition/companionship) with dogs, but a 'Puppy Production' line.

For me there are 'Breeders' and 'Puppy Producers'.

One could argue there are good and bad in both kinds, but the premise in the latter is wrong to me, from the emotional aspect. Dogs are arguably the domestic animal most emotionally attuned to human beings, so to not provide this is wrong.

Suppose I am different in as much as being a farmer, my Vet comes to me so no risk of infection transmission.  My reason for providing so much for a Puppy & New Owner is at the forefront
of making sure everyone has reassurance that the very best has been provided. 

Welfare is at the top of the tree.  I would never take a litter from a bitch until she is at least 2yrs old (normally 3 years old), not one will have more than 3 litters in their lifetime and certainly never any 'back to back'.

Could someone please advise the differences between my working practices and those who are involved in Showing.  I am at a total loss of where we differ.

Can't see any diffetence other than this vet checking of litters seems a relatively new practice, (last 5 years?).

Sadly the not so good breeders have jumped on the bandwaggon (probably to muddy the waters re health tested) when advertising, with vet checked, first vaccine and fleed!

I would hope to never breed a litter that needed treating for fleas, and certainly would not advertise the fact.

Something that I'd not routinely do.

o yes any advert that says 'fleed' is a breeder to avoid!!!

Or bread !

Hi Lidiya

Briefly in my opinion...

A good breeder does not breed for money and does not charge the extortionate prices we are seeing today. Their dogs are pets that they work or show or do agility with. Something to prove that they are worth breeding from.

A good breeder does all the required/recommended health tests for their breed listed on the KC website and by the breed club(s), have the results in and the results be good before mating. Yearly eye testing has been made difficult due to covid but they should have at least a clear eye test from the year before in my book.

A good breeder will answer all and any questions you may have and will offer a lifetime of support.

Look at the history of the breeder. Search the kennel name on the KC health checker. How many litters do they have on a yearly basis. How many puppies does this equate to (breed average). Some basic maths will then normally tell you if money is a motivator. Google the kennel name. Don’t just look at the top listings that come up. Scroll through a couple of pages and you may be surprised what you can find. Look at other litters produced and see if any of the puppies have been health tested. Is there an issue with any of their results as this can mean there has been a problem earlier in the pedigree that has been missed/ignored.

It is not an easy task to find a responsible breeder. There is a lot of research to be done. So many people have the wool pulled over their eyes from breeders who say they have done everything but haven’t. All the info should be available either online via the KC website or from hard copy certificates (in the case of pedigrees and health tests) which can then be cross checked.

Obviously no breeder knows everything and we all continue to learn, new dna tests are added, breed averages revised, but if they aren’t doing at least 95% of what has been said on this thread then I would walk away.

>Could someone please advise the differences between my working practices and those who are involved in Showing.  I am at a total loss of where we differ.

How many times are your prospective brood bitches independently assessed as being suitable quality for their genes to be valuable to the future of the breed?

>Can't see any diffetence other than this vet checking of litters seems a relatively new practice, (last 5 years?).

I think it is down to the microchipping law. Most breeders are not chippers, so they have to take pups to the vet (legally) to get them chipped. So they may as well get a 'vet check' whilst they are there for the chip. (A vet check, let's face it, takes about 5 seconds per puppy with listening to the heart, looking at teeth and a quick prod around.) Then they can claim they are 'vet checked' and sound even more reputable.

Some breeders seem to think that the more things they can 'do' to the puppy, the more reputable they sound. Like if puppies are vaccinated, fleed, vet checked, chipped...gawd knows what else, it used to be docked and dew clawed.... then they are Reputable, for doing All The Things.

When really, a knowledgeable breeder knows that many of these things are not only unnecessary, they are harmful to varying degrees, and can inform buyers why they are not doing them...

I suppose that the bitch could be assessed by doing an effective role picking up at shoots to an exceptionally high standard, however how much is down to training & how much to inborn ability is a moot point.

I know that in ISDS border collies, there are lines that consistently produce very talented dogs, whose natural drive & ability is obvious from a very early age. There are also trials that test the dog & handler combo, I remember 1 International held in Herdwick country, when the sheep showed the difference between pure trialling dogs & real working dogs. Those dogs that mainly did trialling were incapable of working the Herdwicks, despite the ability of the trainer/handler & their track records in previous trials.

Whether gundog trials can be a guide to true value of a dog I don't know, are there lines that consistently produce top quality work not just in the trials, but in actual shoots.

Jeangenie:  > How many times are your prospective brood bitches independently assessed

Yearly>

Ann R Smith: > how much is down to training & how much to inborn ability is a moot point.

Both are very important and jointly create a fantastic working example.

> Whether gundog trials can be a guide to true value of a dog I don't know

They are continually monitored 16 weeks of the year whilst in their work environment.  Other Dog Handlers and those with a sound knowledge of the Breed are the true guides in recognising what makes a good dog.

Shouldn't that be defleaed

onetwothreefour:

> Some breeders seem to think that the more things they can 'do' to the puppy, the more reputable they sound. Like if puppies are vaccinated, fleed, vet checked, chipped...gawd knows what else, it used to be docked and dew clawed.... then they are Reputable, for doing All The Things.

No one suggested that at all.

> a knowledgeable breeder knows that many of these things are not only unnecessary, they are harmful to varying degrees

And where was this evidence recorded?  You do your utmost to provide the very best start with the information you posess at that time .  Everything else is opinion IMO

You can't have it all ways.  Disapproval if you do it all. disapproval if you do half and disapproval if you do nothing.

Trouble is a number  of.the not so good breeders do these extra simple things to blind a prospective buyer with science. 
Its cheap and easy to do those things but not so with health tests.
many prospective buyers don't know about health tests and saying a vet has seen the pups and they have been treated for parasites etc  breeds confidence . So those things sound really good
Many dont know anything about vaccines so vaccinating once before leaving sounds good when actually it may not be

furriefriends:  > Or bread !

Did you mean Breed? or Bread as in slang for money.  If it's the latter, then THERE is the real reason. Not all the 'malarky' surrounding your not reputable because of XYZ.   IMO

There has to be a balance.  The world is not black & white. eg you can't qualify for a rescue, you can't find a good breeder for love nor money and exceptional homes offered are
being denied the opportunity to enjoy what we all take for granted. Sad times indeed ...

Furriefriends is talking about the misspelling of ‘bred’ which is seen a lot on p4h I believe. In relation to the ‘fleed’ comment which should actually be ‘defleaed’.

> Many dont know anything about vaccines so vaccinating once before leaving sounds good when actually it may not be

Something I discussed further up the thread in relation to myself being swayed by the Forum to stop 1st vaccination which at one point was viewed as a must for some potential new owners

When people can't spell the basics so I bred this litter and type I bread this litter then that's a worrying start.

I vet check all mine, you never know what could be picked up and checking hearts is not something most if any of us can do with certainty. I then know that I am sending the pups off with no known health issues, I also request that new owners take their pups to the vets within 3 days of getting them home as well.

Even if you don't show your dogs getting a ch show judge to assess your bitches surely can still be done. I would expect a working dog to still be meeting the breed standard to a reasonable degree. Whats the point of having a breed standard if you are going to ignore even the basics?

I was chatting on the phone a few weeks back to a trainer and when they had a litter during lockdown last year they took their litter into the vets a number of times, it meant these pups got used to travelling, being handled by other people and also got vet checked as well. I thought that was a great idea when people weren't able to come into your home as a way around the pups being handled by others.

Ye bread as in most spelled bred
I might come from South London but havnt dropped into Cockney yet lol

I take mine to the vets, although think as I’ve now moved further out to the countryside I may end up getting them coming to me next time, similar to suejaw their hearts are the main thing for me that need checking. I once helped foster a rescue litter and two of the pups had heart murmurs, I know it’s slightly different as they’d been bred so poorly, but even after the vet let me listen with one I couldn’t tell that he had anything wrong with his heart. So I’d just prefer it. I know heart murmurs can be picked up later on and again, like suejaw, I suggest within 3 days of getting pup taking them to the vet. I also like starting the vet experience with them all and it all being a happy experience, I know which vet we’re seeing and have trust in that vet and they’ll see other looking dogs from afar and get the whole experience (they ended up all falling asleep with my last litter!) I also ask the owners to ask the vet they’ll take their pup to what vaccine they use, if they use the same as mine then I say I can have them vaccinated otherwise they don’t have any before they leave. If I had a litter during this past year then I’d opt for not getting them checked as I’d want to be there.

>Jeangenie:  > How many times are your prospective brood bitches independently assessed
>Yearly>

By whom? (A routine vet-check isn't an independent breed assessor.)

Jeangenie:  > By whom? (A routine vet-check isn't an independent breed assessor.

So who is and who would you suggest I use as an independent assessor?  How often should they be assessed and what is your routine? Thanks in advance

masajackrussell:  > Furriefriends is talking about the misspelling of ‘bred’ which is seen a lot on p4h I believe. In relation to the ‘fleed’ comment which should actually be ‘defleaed’

I see.  Thanks

>So who is and who would you suggest I use as an independent assessor?  How often should they be assessed and what is your routine? Thanks in advance

You asked what are the differences between your working practices and those who are involved in Showing. Those involved with showing have their dogs independently assessed many times a year, by many different people, all of whom have themselves passed their own assessments and tests as to whether they have enough breed knowledge to be able to do so. If the dog is consistently unplaced, or placed very low, under several different people, you know that it's a 'fireside dog' and not a breeding prospect. o I suggest you start entering your dogs in shows (or field trials if they're of that type) and have them assessed.

Jeangenie:  >

You asked what are the differences between your working practices and those who are involved in Showing. Those involved with showing have their dogs independently assessed many times a year, by many different people, all of whom have themselves passed their own assessments and tests as to whether they have enough breed knowledge to be able to do so.

With respect, that wasn't the question posed.  However the difference between having your own little group all giving each other the 'thumbs up' approach and those of us who follow the rules of independent assessors of our working practices are worlds apart and for the record, we don't all live in a city catchment area for show attendance nor would the majority of my Breeders Grp want to.

If the dog is consistently unplaced, or placed very low, under several different people, you know that it's a 'fireside dog' and not a breeding prospect. o I suggest you start entering your dogs in shows (or field trials if they're of that type) and have them assessed.

I understand the Show view that their prize winners need to be perfect except of course when they have less that perfect DNA Results.  Then it's OK to breed from them due to the small gene pool.  Unplaced dogs of course will be of no further use in the ring so I suppose they will be sold on.

Enter my guys in shows & field trials? Not in this world. Not because they are not worthy but because I can't stand the hypocricy.  My Dogs are placed at local show level which is fun, a chance to interact and holds a top prize of £3..  I am more than happy with that thank you.

Could I just add that I am not judging every show breeder under this umbrella, just the ones that I have had interaction with

I’m not really sure what being in a “city catchment area” has to do with anything, some breeders/handlers travel hundreds of miles for shows and while I know a lot of people who won’t venture too far from home (especially for Open shows), if you restrict yourself to just the city you live in (or near) you likely won’t find many shows at all.

My own large Midlands town seems to only have the occasional Limit show.

a lot of the championship shows which are attended by hundreds are on agricultural showgrounds all over the the British Isles.  Not within cities and as silverleaf says  people will travel miles to attend insome cases from abroad .
These shows are all part of the lead up to qualifying for crufts  and are judged by many different qualified judges who have to under go specific training and assessment to beable to judge the competitors .certainly not a as u describe your own small group of people any more than in your ' world ' 
Dogs that do not win places are not then as u suggest sold on . They arnt bred from if not suitable but spend many happy years with their breeders . Rehoming or not has been discussed a long time ago
Just for information very few if any kc shows actually give prize money not even the £3 u mention

If I understand correctly your dogs are working Gundogs so assume they are regularly assessed on their working ability?

I like the German Korung scheme. This is specifically to assess dogs for breeding in GSDs originally, but is now used in other breeds. Firstly the dog must have a range of health testing done, then possess a working qualification, be assessed by a highly qualified Kormeister against the breed standard.

Dogs are given a qualification for breeding for a set amount of time initially & at different levels for minor faults in parts of the survey. The dogs have to pass more than one survey to be granted lifetime qualification for breeding


A Körung is an event where breed survey/s are done. In order for a dog to try for a breed survey, it must minimally hold either a SchH 1 or an HGH title. It must also have completed the AD, the Ausdauerprüfung (a 12 mile endurance test) and have received at least a "G" (meaning Gut, in English "good") or better in a conformation show, and have hips and elbows cleared by one of the organizations that does this (the SV a stamp program, OFA in the US, and others in each country). When a dog passes a breed survey, which begins with a proscribed protection routine that it must pass first, then the Körmeister (a special certification held by only a few people) will use a specified form to fill out describing the dog. This report is known as a Kör report


There are Korung for different breeds such as Labrador Retrievers

I don't think this is a bad thing however I do wonder whether there is any bias along the way? Or do they have like a tick chart?
To be checked off against the breed standard and to make sure the temperament isn't wrong I think is a good thing.
Some countries don't have the byb like we do as being kc reg means something, the equivalent in their country in terms of being registered. So health testing is checked off and with good results. Puppy owners would then could be further educated so anyone not registering their litter would be frowned on and probably find it difficult to sell.

>With respect, that wasn't the question posed.  However the difference between having your own little group all giving each other the 'thumbs up' approach and those of us who follow the rules of independent assessors of our working practices are worlds apart and for the record, we don't all live in a city catchment area for show attendance nor would the majority of my Breeders Grp want to.

With respect, that is exactly the question you asked:
"Could someone please advise the differences between my working practices and those who are involved in Showing.  I am at a total loss of where we differ."

Most people don't live in 'city catchment areas', and most shows aren't held in cities anyway. Exhibitors might travel from Inverness to Staffordshire, for instance, for a judge's assessment.

>I understand the Show view that their prize winners need to be perfect except of course when they have less that perfect DNA Results.

Exhibitors (unless kennel blind) realise that the 'perfect' dog doesn't exist, and probably never will. That doesn't mean they're not striving to get their next generation a little bit closer to the ideal.

>Enter my guys in shows & field trials? Not in this world. Not because they are not worthy but because I can't stand the hypocricy.  My Dogs are placed at local show level which is fun, a chance to interact and holds a top prize of £3..  I am more than happy with that thank you.

Companion shows (local 'fun shows') are great fun, and a wonderful way to introduce a dog to the concept of the show ring.  So you see pedigree dogs along with the crossbreeds and mongrels, all enjoying a day out, which is lovely. If your dog always gets Best pedigree at one of these it would definitely be worth trying your hand at a proper show.

The GSDs are weighed & measured which has to be within the parameters of the breed standard, the Kormeisters are impartial, records are both tick boxes & descriptive. They are trained & tested on their knowledge & interpretation of the breed standard, which is why you do not see massively over sized/undersized GSDs being bred.

Before GSDs are registered with the SV, the home situation is visited by the Area Breed Warden, the housing, condition of mother & puppies, number of puppies is all recorded by the Breed Warden, if anything is not up to required standard the puppies are not registrable until the standard is raised. The Breed Warden also are trained, tested & impartial

I think that's a good thing then. I would be happy with the UK following something similar.

>Could someone please advise the differences between my working practices and those who are involved in Showing.  I am at a total loss of where we differ.

Err where to start, you came on this forum saying you were a commercial breeder, you've gradually changed your story over time to try and merge with us... you don't rehome dogs when they're finished breeding, except you have, you health test everything, except you haven't, you mocked showing, now you say you show at local level, you breed from everything you have, now you claim to have some sort of assessment in place. I'll give you points for tenacity, but to my mind you are a puppy farmer, and yes in my mind a commercial breeder is a puppy farmer, a commercial breeder is farming pups. I'm not saying you're bad to your dogs or don't look after them, but your primary reason for having them is to breed from them and I don't think that's right or appropriate for dogs and is definitely not what a good breeder does.

> we don't all live in a city catchment area for show attendance

It's an 1800 miles round trip to our speciality in Germany from my house, I've made the trip many times to compete with the best in europe

Coming to this a bit late but to my mind a good breeder;

Health tests to at least the minimum KC recommendation.  Quite a few dogs in my breed might not be KC registered but health testing is still a priority.

Has the dog as a companion before anything else.  Whether that be a working dog, show dog or purely a pet there has to be an obvious bond there.

Will not take any money prior to pups being seen. 
Will not allow pups to be viewed before 4 weeks.
Always, always has mum there with the pups. 
Will not guarantee a pups availability until viewing.  A good breeder needs to see you with mum and pups.  If mum doesn't like a potential owner they wouldn't get a pup.

I vet check.  Even if I'm happy pups are healthy there are some things I might not spot. Undescended testes, hip dislocation to name two.  I also flea treat.  I have cats who frequent the outside.  I make it clear to buyers that I cannot guarantee that there isn't a flea in the house.

Once a breeder has accepted you as a new family they should give regular updates on pups progress. 

If the pup is being sold as KC registered you should be able to access both dam and sires 5 gen pedigree.  Even better they should direct you to online access.  And you should be able to evidence of health tests.

In short a good breeder should be totally transparent and you should able to feel that.

> It's an 1800 miles round trip to our speciality in Germany from my house, I've made the trip many times to compete with the best in europe

Not been to Europe to show yet but I plan to as soon as it is allowed. The things we do eh?! It’s at least 2 hours each way to any of the U.K. champ shows from me. Hardly next door!

like hoggie who seemed to have forgotten the the uk has very diverse landscape  and by no means all cities or surban areas many members live well outside those areas and some farm .as u would expect in group this large it is very mixed

> we don't all live in a city catchment area for show attendance nor would the majority of my Breeders Grp want to.

I really don't know what you mean by 'city catchment areas'. There aren't many venues that allow dog showing, so the championship shows in particular are centred on a few sites in the UK, not necessarily very close to the Society's base. For instance Manchester Championship show is held at Stafford Showground, 60 miles away from Manchester. A 3-hour drive to a show is about average; those who live in more remote areas have a lot further to go, of course. But they understand the importance of getting the opinion of unbiased people.