Hello,

We are looking to get a lab puppy and after studying the family tree we have seen that although both parents have 0 scores, there was a score 1 and 2 in the great grandfather. Is this something to be concerned about? Also the breeders have seemingly actively worked on pairing with "better" scored dogs so the scores have been declining (from 128 to 49). As I don't know what figure actually translates to the 0-3 scoring I am very confused. Are we thinking too much about the ancestors and should we be focus on the parents hood scores? What do you think?

Grateful for any help.

Regards,
Lidiya

Elbow Dysplasia is more genetic than Hip Dyspasia.

The BVA( The veterinary side of the ED scheme advise using only 0 scored dogs, the scheme has been running for over 20 years & TBH only 0 scored dogs should have been used for at least the last 15 years. Unfortunately the KC site still states using dogs scored 1 or less is OK, there are enough quality stud dogs in Labradors for only 0 scored dogs to be used & have been for 15 years.

You can download an information leaflet about the scheme from the link above.

Low hip scores should be the normal for a minimum of 5 generations behind all puppies.

There is no excuse for not using 0 ED & low HD scored dogs.

If there are non 0 elbow scores in a pedigree, it is worth checking ALL the parents, siblings & offspring scores of the dog(s) as it is checking related dogs hip scores

I was recently reading a study where they CT’d elbows that scored 0 and 1. I think it was over 60% of elbows scored 1 that were normal on CT, and several of the 0 scores weren’t normal on CT (but I don’t remember the figure). I also know a dog scored 3/3 that was normal, and another that had at least one side 3 which was changed to 0 on appeal.

I don’t care at all about finding the odd 1 in the pedigree because xraying is not good enough. You’ll find obvious problems like UAP or big osteophytes by xray but they’re not going to score a 1, they’ll be big fails.

I know too many dogs scored 1 that never have a lame day in their life and 0s that have problems. The best thing to do is rule them out if you see a fair few 1s, or 2/3s as well as a 1, and ask the breeder what they know about elbow health in their dogs’ relatives and the relatives of the stud dog. If you know anyone else in the breed it doesn’t hurt to sensitively approach them to ask as well.

If the grandad’s elbows are 2/1 look at what he’s produced. Stud dogs in labs are often prolific producers..... so have a look and see what scores there are in his progeny and if you find health tested progeny see what they’ve produced too.

Also, in Labradors there is enough data for the elbow EBV to be available. The EBV takes into account all scored relatives and compares them to the rest of the breed and states the level of confidence. The higher the level of confidence the more ‘sure’ the prediction is. The lower the EBV is the better chance the pup has of having a lower score. You can find it on the same page as the health tests for both dogs. The EBV should be in the minus side, going towards the red is worse, and it’s a more reliable method of prediction than just looking at a few dogs.

Oh dear I'm looking at studies of scoring done by CT & DNA research into genetic factoring for ED, not just  looking at x rays.

There is very strong evidence that ED is more genetically affected that HD.

I know of dogs with very high HD scores, 68 upwards(34:34)that never have any problems, but would you breed from them? It sounds like you don't put much import on ED & the scoring system. Was the study you read about errors in elbow scoring & which university or veterinary practice this was/is being carried out & was it in UK?

Are you medically qualified BTW ?

Totally off topiic, you are aware that wild wolves & other members of the Canis species also have HD & ED in there make up

As it's Labradors, the most numerous breed by far, in this case I would look at the ebv, as that has done the back checking of scored relatives for you to arrive at the ebv.

Ann R Smith:  > Oh dear I'm looking at studies of scoring done by CT & DNA research into genetic factoring for ED, not just  looking at x rays.<br /><br />There is very strong evidence that ED is more genetically affected that H

There is always room for error at every level. When you have a Lab with terrible reported hip scores(ie 36:36 =72) and that dog never has a limp, issue or problem at 7 yrs of age then questions such as Tectona's should be brought to light.  I no longer own this beautiful dog with me but I see him on a regular basis and my goodness, he is in his prime and will hopefully have another 5 yrs +.

Before I was aware as a Breeder of Hip scoring, Elbow scoring, DNA tests etc. . given the choice again, no I wouldn't breed from him. What I can state is that I kept back a lovely girl Puppy from his Litter and my untested dam at the time. When I had this Puppy's hips scored (3:3 = 6).

> Are you medically qualified BTW ?

I don't think you have to be medically qualified to reach a conclusion when the evidence described has been presented and by all means check the KC website for confirmation.

> Totally off topiic, you are aware that wild wolves & other members of the Canis species also have HD & ED in there make up

Not quite sure of the relevance to the OP?

Hi Lidiya,

The BVA statistics for elbow grading are from all dogs with elbow grades carried out since 1999, it states that at the top.  If you summise that approx 50,000 Labrador pups are registered with the KC each and every year, obviously that fluctuates when I first got mine it was 55,000 but has dropped below 50,000 a couple of times, so it's a conservative estimate, that's 1,000,000 puppies.  The number with elbow grades is 21,842, which is 2.18% tested approximately.

Not only are there some fluctuations with grading, but there's not enough consistent data for anyone to really draw anything at all from elbow grading percentages.  We need more testing to happen, and we need breeders to stick by the elbow grading results.

Also, a lot of people are sending hips and elbows off to the ANKC who have been faster to process plates, however, a friend who did this, got the results back 6/6 for hips, which is right towards the upper limit of what is acceptable in labs (ideally closer to or below the mean which is 9).  She'd been told by the radiographer to expect 4/4 or 5/5 hips or there abouts.  She'd already submitted them to the BVA but was impatient, so went to the ANKC as well.  Lo and behold came back from the BVA as 5/4, so the ANKC results are really going to muck up the BVA statistics, firstly because they're not recorded (hips or elbows) but a note can be put on their record, which is not much good.  But also because they're not consistent.  Another dog where the plates were sent off to the ANKC to 'check' the results from the BVA which had come back 7/10, came back from the ANKC 6/17. This means the EBV isn’t that reliable yet.

For me, in breed as numerous as labs, and as has a already been said, there is no need to breed from anything but good scores and I certainly would not buy a pup from parents with scores that aren’t acceptable (0 elbows as we are talking about elbows). It’s about reducing the risk. Why buy risk when you don’t have to? It’s like crossing the road, we know we reduce the risk of getting hit by a car if we look left and right before we cross, we also know that we might get lucky and there could be no cars coming so may not need to look. But why take the risk when it’s so easy to reduce it?

Thank you so much for the response. Indeed the puppy's parent are both 0/0 on elbows. The only one that had a 2 was the puppy's great grandfather on the mother's side. I was just wondering if that means anything.

It’s a very difficult subject that’s for sure!

Kennel Club Elbows - Breed Specific Statistics 2005 - 2019: HERE

Labrador Health: Here

Sadly the interviewee has omiited the PennHip hip scheme, which can be done from 4 months & actually a more accurate assessment method. Very useful if the dog is to be a working dog

Playing Devil's Advocate here - and I do appreciate no breeder should want to be producing puppies who probably without surgery (and it's own attending potential problems) will be destined to live a life in pain, sometimes I do worry about the potential for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.   For example, we have an eye test (gonioscopy) to help prevent producing hounds being bred with the potential to produce puppies who develop full glaucoma.    Some time ago now, a really nice dog failed his test with the result he wasn't used at stud after the first few times and was lost to the breed for his other exceptional qualities.    As far as I'm aware the dog never developed glaucoma and although I don't KNOW, those puppies he did sire are fine.   I don't know what prompted this dog's owners to get him tested although at that time, there was a lot of concern about glaucoma and many breeders were getting their breeding stock tested, promoted by Prof. Bedford.

I presume you have never seen a dog with glaucoma that has one of it's parents that has failed the gonio test. A friend of mine has such a dog & he is now blind after the removal of both it's eyes after development of glaucoma in both eyes. The pain that dog had to endure was terrible to see & he was on extremely high doses of pain killers, between diagnosis & eye removal.
Sadly the breeder was less than honest about her popular studdog & to date he has NOT been removed from stud

@ Ann R Smith ...... you presume TOTALLY INCORRECTLY.     I have been active within my breed since 1972 when we bought our first and am quite aware of what having glaucoma means.

I said I was playing Devil's Advocate re the POTENTIAL for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.   I'm very sad for your friend.   In fact I came across one in my previous vet's practice who had had one eye blow which had to be removed, very sadly closely followed by the other, which all too often can happen.   Top breeders within the breed now have all their breeding stock tested....

You were down playing risking using a gonio fail dog in breedings. Even if the dog did not develop glaucoma, you do not take risks with innocent lives.
Was this wonderful dog of such high value to the breed you would risk using him? So you have seen firsthand the suffering that glaucoma causes?

Someone told me they knew there was a risk in using a dog that produced epileptic off spring in every litter it sired, but it was worth the risk because of the number of champions the dog had produced. Their"risk"resulted in 3 of the litter being dead by the litter was 14 months old-all from epilepsy symptoms so severe they had no quality of life.

"Goniodysgenesis/pectinate ligament abnormality (PLA) is the predisposing abnormality to primary angle-closure glaucoma".   It does NOT mean an animal who has failed WILL go on to develop glaucoma.  As was the case with the dog I mentioned.  However we in the breed are totally aware that glaucoma exists in the breed and take the necessary steps not to produce affected puppies.   Of course, the paperwork from the KC of any registered puppies from a failed parent, will be so marked (Goneo failed).   This may have changed?  

I wasn't 'down playing' anything .   I was merely suggesting that there could be a possibility of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - same goes for all problems.  And yes, at the time, the dog I mentioned was indeed of high value to the breed as evidenced in the few puppies he did sire before his gonio fail. 

Yes, I HAVE seen glaucoma in Bassets, first hand (although before you go there as you seem to be dumping on me for some reason, NOT within my own bloodline). 

As for epilepsy (also in the breed, in some bloodlines, said possibly to have come into the breed via the use of bloodhounds many years ago).   A couple of years after I'd used a particular dog and kept back two really nice puppies,  I discovered he'd had to be put down - epilepsy.   Not in itself earth shattering (he was in his 9th year) but then on checking back, it seems his mother was the same.   At that point,  I refused any stud enquiries for the male I'd kept, and spayed his sister without taking a litter from her.   In other words, I ended my bloodline and it was a good job I'd reached the latter stages of my programme, not just started out.    I felt the buck had to stop, although I do know others had used the same dog, but were breeding on from him.

"the litter being dead by the litter was 14 months old-all from epilepsy symptoms so severe they had no quality of life."     Really?   most often epilepsy can/ should be able to be controlled.

> Goniodysgenesis is the predisposing abnormality to primary angle-closure glaucoma.   It does NOT

I don't know why this posted, but it's too late to have it deleted (please Admin?)

3 of the the litter being dead by the litter was 14 months old-all from epilepsy symptoms so severe they had no quality of life."    to quote what I wrote in full & not as edited by you

" Really?   most often epilepsy can/ should be able to be controlled."

When a 7 week old puppy goes into status epilepticus for over 1 hour & even putting the puppy onto an induced coma doesn't stop the seizure, the same with a 8 month old puppy whose seizures had been controlled goes into status epilepticus for 4 hours & again even an induced coma did not stop the seizure & finally the 14 month old whose seizures had been controlled also went into status epilepticus for over 2 hours & induced coma did not stop them, you really believe that ALL epilepsy can be controlled? Are you medically qualified to state this?

So many people believe that ALL epilepsy can be successfully drug controlled, far from true & every seizure affects the brain in a detrimental way, resulting in early death for dogs whose seizures are not controllable by drugs.

I worked closely with BSD owners whose dogs had epilepsy as the breed has a higher than average epilepsy affected dogs, we managed to track down a common gene mutation amougst the affected dogs, which has now resulted is the identification of the ADAM23 gene. With the data shared with the Genome-wide association studies(GWAS) there is a glimmer of light in getting rid of this worst of genetic conditions. Others have developed a test & are conituing the research.

Even worse in my breed which has Open Angle Glaucoma, so no predisposition to check for. Symptoms don't appear to 6 years on average.

To see the pain, and eventual loss of eyes is hearbreaking.

Careful pedigree study and avouding doubling up on historical producers had kept incidents to a case or 2 per decade.

Fortunately we now have a DNA test thanks to among others two  cases that occurred just when Helsinki were researching and looking for affected dogs DNA samples.

We now thankfully have a test since 2015.

@ Ann   If you are on about mis-quotes ..... I said "most often epilepsy can/ should be able to be controlled."  So no, I do not believe that ALL epilepsy can be successfully drug controlled.  And neither did I say that

And no, you surely well know I'm not medically qualified to state this ...... I just have many years of first-hand experience, in a lot of things not always with dogs.   And I don't necessarily need to be 'blinded by science'.   It's just there, if and when I need it.

Statistically MOSTseizures in dogs/non human epilepsy is not controlled by drugs, much of non human epilepsy/seizures goes undiagnosed, because, unlike humans, the animal cannot indicate that it has had a seizure. Some forms of epilepsy cannot be controlled by medication in humans & non human. A good deal of seizures occur during sleep leaving owners unaware that their dog/pet has had an episode.

The dogs I mentioned were not just put down because they had simple seizures as implied by your remark I correctly quoted "really..... ", they had uncontrollable Status Epileptus, the same condition another friend, who has BSD, had to have her dog PTS when the medication totally failed after years of taking drugs & having partial control. Her bitch had inherited epilepsy, unlike another of her dogs which has Bravecto induced seizures, her seizures are almost 100% controlled

Many dogs continue to have seizures despite being on medication, the frequency being reduced, but not fully controlled

Can we get this thread back on topic please.

> Can we get this thread back on topic please.

Yes please!!!    I've had enough of this as I have no doubt have others, most of all OP