I have always used Frontline but my groomer says a lot of her clients are finding it to be not as effective as it was. What does everyone think.

Frontline has become less effective over several years, and now is considered to be pretty much a waste of money. It's a shame because it used to be the 'go-to' treatment, but sadly the fleas seem to have become immune to the formulation.

gaby:  > I have always used Frontline but my groomer says a lot of her clients are finding it to be not as effective as it was

I have used 'Frontline Spot On' previously as a preventatory treatment over the years however I have recently started to use Frontline Spray on a weekly basis as part of my Dogs
grooming process. 

Not had a problem with fleas in 4 months and my guys are exposed to all sorts of terrain, mixing with other dogs and  love to roam is some 'unclean' places .  Hope this helps!

What would you use instead.

gaby:  > What would you use instead.

I've now started to use Frontline Puppy Spray weekly on my adult dogs rather than the spot on treatment.  It gives the same results as the ORIGINAL Frontline IMO.  You can buy it in 500ml bottles on line.

I only use anything if we have fleas which has been only twice in probably 20 years .
Then I used what vet suggested and sprayed the house and car as well as the cats
All sorted .

Same here. Only seen fleas once, sprayed and hoovered everything including the dog and got rid of the things. I don’t like routinely treating with chemicals unless there is a need to

Should of added i did also treat the dog  ! Lol
Yes I agree jodi I only use chemicals if I have to

As others have said I don’t treat unless I see fleas. Pretty easy to spot on my breed as they are primarily white! Treating too regularly is what causes the fleas to build up an immunity to the product. I also don’t like putting unnecessary chemicals on my dogs (or my cat) more often than I have too. They usually only pick them up if they catch a rabbit (not a hugely common occurrence despite constant attempts!) and being terriers they are in and out of everywhere. If I do treat it is what the vet gives me which I think is called advocate but I can’t really remember as I’d don’t use it that often. Will check in the morning.

masajackrussell:  > Treating too regularly is what causes the fleas to build up an immunity to the product

Well that's a new one on me but would back up the original posters concerns re being less effective. Shampoos, doggy perfumes etc also contain chemicals.  Maybe NOT bathing dogs should be considered too pre Show...

I don’t bathe my dogs unnecessarily either. They get a wash down if they have rolled in something

I really don't understand why vets promote the need for dogs to be routinely treated with toxic chemicals for fleas or ticks which might not even be there. I have never seen a flea on my dogs in the last 30 years, (which is when we lost our last elderly cat). Admittedly there are very few sheep or deer in this area, but we are certainly not short of foxes and rabbits. I groom at least twice a week with a Spratts 73 comb, (though I would use a more appropriate grade if they weren't smooth coated), job done.

You only have to look at proven contraindications of Bravecto, that makes unsuitable for breeds with susceptibility to seizures, to know that chemical flea killing treatments are not safe.

If these pesticides are safe to put on the bare skin of dogs, why are there warnings about human contact with them?

I have one rough coated collie & two smooth coated mongrels, never seen any signs on them of fleas. They are not given spot on/spray/tablet chemical flea treatments not bathed in perfumed shampoo. The original JDS shampoo is all I have ever used(full title Jeannie Dog Shampoo named after the first Bearded Collie registered with KC in the 1940s. Jeannie of Bothkennar) on the rare occasion I bath my dogs. It contains permethrin the artificial form of Pyrethrum found in Chrysanthemum flowers. 

I too use a very fine comb on my dogs if I have any concerns over fleas etc Could it be my dogs natural diet & free access to wild garlic that they occasionally consume that keeps the evil flea at bay?

I also prefer to treat fleas as I see them. River’s had them three times in the 19 months he’s been here, but then we have a lot of cats roaming around and we spend a lot of time walking in a variety of different places.

I don’t use frontline because it’s not suitable for rabbits, and I don’t want to risk my three house bunnies. Advantage does the job very well when he needs it, and I’ve never had to treat the house (or the cat, weirdly, despite the fact that they spend half the day playing with each other).

Riv doesn’t get a proper bath very often (quick rinse in the shower takes off the worst of the mud if he gets filthy) but I’ve found that his ProGroom shampoo will kill fleas. It’s got neem oil and tea tree and other oils, I’m not surprised fleas aren’t keen! That probably helps keep him free of external parasites as well.

Just for information if u have cats don't use anything with pyrethrum that they could access in any way
It is very toxic to them
Flea treatments have to be specific for cats as well although there are some that are suitable for cats and dogs.

>What would you use instead.

I wouldn't use anything if there was no evidence of fleas. It's not sensible to put chemicals onto an animal unless it's absolutely necessary. (I'm assuming you don't treat yourself for headlice every month? There's no difference.) If I found fleas I would use Stronghold, Prinovox or Advantix.

>I wouldn't use anything if there was no evidence of fleas. It's not sensible to put chemicals onto an animal unless it's absolutely necessary. (I'm assuming you don't treat yourself for headlice every month? There's no difference.) If I found fleas I would use Stronghold, Prinovox or Advantix.

Jeangenie, slightly off topic but headed in the same direction - if you live in an area that has a high Tick population and your dogs pick them up regularly, would you opt for a regular treatment during 'tick months' or avoid it at all costs?

>I have recently started to use Frontline Spray on a weekly basis as part of my Dogs grooming process.

Applying frontline spray weekly is terribly wrong; the datasheet says "Therefore, spraying builds up a film and makes the fur glossy. In the absence of safety studies, the minimum treatment interval is 4 weeks. The product is active for up to 3 months against fleas in dogs, "

>Not had a problem with fleas in 4 months and my guys are exposed to all sorts of terrain, mixing with other dogs and  love to roam is some 'unclean' places .

Even fulltime working labradors don't need routine treatment for fleas if they're fed right and groomed right. My own dogs (not working but certainly live an active, outdoor life) haven't had fleas in 20+ years, and so haven't had any flea treatments in all that time.

It’s also worth remembering that any treatments you apply externally can get into rivers if your dog swims.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/17/pet-flea-treatments-poisoning-rivers-across-england-scientists-find

I have never had a cat so no problem using JDS

Absolutely ann . I felt u would be aware anyway but your post jogged my brain in case others wernt aware .

Sadly it happens

Cats should only be bathed in cat specific shampoo, simply because they self groom, I cringe when I see general animal welfare using the same shampoo on dogs & cats, the same goes for many everyday things like dettol/jeyes or other disinfectant that goes cloudy in dilution with water containing phenols

Totally agree ann . Cats metabolise chemicals so differently to dogs and its often forgotten and risks are taken
Given theu groom themselves it increase the risks if something topical is put on the fur or feet household products are something else that have to watched.  Never mind the sweet but deadly flavour of antifreeze

Its the same with medication. Eg paracetamol can be given to dogs. Cats it would kill
All in all cats are very sensitive creatures

Agree.

Haven't used a flea spray routinely on the dogs for many years, after a reaction to Frontline Spot on, on return to UK from a show in Europe in 2002.

I am very attractive to fleas and sensitive to their bites, and at the first suggestion of a bite on me I have use Acclaim household spray that has insect growth regulator, as that interupts flea life cycle.

Fleas don't live on the dog most of the time, so treating the environment is key.

I bathe the dogs at the same time using an insecticidal shampoo.

I don't have Cats.

Cat fleas are the main flea, as they are not host specific like for example Hedgehog fleas.

Frontline is pretty much useless and burns my cats skin.  I will use spot ons if necessary and go for advantage first simply because it's freely available.  Our vets use advocate which is good as an all in one for fleas/ticks/worms but expensive when you have two cats and two dogs.  I have to treat simply because having outside cats means if I didn't I would be overrun in the summer.  We're currently on seresto collars which are doing the trick just fine but I don't think even those are enough in the summer.  Once these collars are past their best I'll switch to advocate for a month or two then back to seresto.  I hate the blighters but they come with the territory unfortunately.  I do treat the house and have carpet in only one room and minimal soft furnishings but honestly can never guarantee there isn't a flea in the house somewhere.

Frontline/fipronil is awful stuff http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/53897, as are all the chemical pesticides we pour, spray or feed to our dogs.  I had 4 fleas in 4 weeks on my dog last year after a visit to a holiday rental, they were killed with a good bath, bedding washed and house vacuumed every day.  I had to spray inside the car with indorex.  Sorted.  Take action when you see them and for me it is the first sign of a scratching dog.

Jeangenie:  I'm sure everyone's situation is different and when you mention 'full time' working dogs, that is exactly what mine are.  Being a sheep farmer as well as running a small commercal shoot, myself & the 'guys' are out every day in all weathers. I have gas showers in my outside barn and during the winter months the dogs need showered down every night.
(actually bathed only 2 or 3 times per year)
In the summer months I have childrens paddling pools dotted around the property where the water loving breed can have a 'dip' at anytime.  They still need weekly grooming to get rid of dead hair and bearing in mind they are around so many flea carrying animals on a daily basis if I left it to spray once a month a rapant infestation through all would ensue.
They are not 'doused' in the stuff , they are sprayed with it as the last part of grooming (it is the Puppy Strength Frontline you get online). not a full treatment every week.

Re being fed right and groomed right - I really don't intend to get into that arena of discussion as it is another 'hot potato' that gives way to more bad feeling.
Lets just say I have very healthy, happy dogs who are fit as a fiddle and the stamina/power to do their job well.

I don't use anything for fleas unless my dogs retrieve rabbits :) In which case, I give them a Capstar just before or just after... it's an oral med, which has been around a long while and is v safe. It only works for 24-48hrs and kills adult fleas.

In about 15 years we've seen fleas twice. Think how many pesticides we've avoided administering.

Ticks are a different matter. I sometimes have dogs which are tick magnets. If I really really really have to use something, I think the best/safest option is a Scalibor collar. Removable if there is a reaction, removable before swimming or bathing, been around a long time, only one drug in it, (deltamethrin) and it's just the way I'd go. I do hate the fact that we are also in contact with the dogs when they are wearing them. I try to avoid using anything as much as poss...

Ann - and I always thought JDS stood for Jeyes Dog Shampoo!
Strange coincidence, Our Dogs is currently serialising Tom Horner's, Take Them Round Please, and who should appear in this week's episode?
Jeannie of Bothkennar!

Jeannie was on the original label.

Tom Hornet gave my friend's Beardie bitch her first best puppy in breed at a championship show

Love JDS shampoo, smells a lot like Vosene.

It's my go to shampoo as mine only get bathed every few months.

Treating too regularly is what causes the fleas to build up an immunity to the product

Well that's a new one on me

Same thing as many antibiotic-resistant bugs that are causing problems in US, too many being prescribed when not actually the best treatment.

> Same thing as many antibiotic-resistant bugs that are causing problems in US, too many being prescribed when not actually the best treatment.

True. And lots of small doses is one of the best ways to create a colony of bacteria that are resistant to a certain chemical, antibiotic, or whatever, if you don’t quite kill them all. Another is a consistent very low dose (not enough enough to kill, just to disadvantage those that are more susceptible to its effects).

In fact it’s scary how easy it would be for anyone with a few Petri dishes and a basic incubator and a little bit of knowledge to create a new “superbug”. I made my own little colony of penicillin-resistant E. coli in my first year at uni (under supervision, of course, and it was destroyed appropriately afterwards).

We’re kind of doing the same thing out “in the wild” with fleas and Frontline, I guess.

> they are sprayed with it as the last part of grooming (it is the Puppy Strength Frontline you get online). not a full treatment every week.

Frontline don't actually do a 'Puppy Strength' spray; please could you provide a link to the product you use? And of course you realise that underdosing creates resistance, rendering the product useless?

Although a real cynic with this stuff I have been persuaded to try out one of those baltic amber necklaces to repel ticks.  I really would not have bothered if it hadn't been for a friend who lives next to a field full of sheep.  She regularly gets ticks on herself but her dog (deerhound) has not had one on him since wearing it.  She swears by it (perhaps she should wear one herself).  So we are giving it a go.  If we get no ticks this year I will have deemed this a success and if we get no change it will be deemed as another waste of money.

It would be jnteresting to see what results u get. I know people who swear by them as well but never quite took the plunge myself
Tbh we don't seem to attract many ticks inspite of having deer around us. Not so many sheep though

I’ll be interested to hear how you get on with the amber necklace 91052, I’ve not heard about this before.
We don’t get ticks in the area around where I live apart from a woodland walk which we like going to, however where we have our static caravan it’s heathland with a lot of red deer and ticks abound, interestingly only during the spring when it’s damper. The Suffolk coast is very dry compared to much of the country and during the summer and autumn I’ve noticed the ticks seem to not be around so much if at all.

I'm another that will wait with interest to see how that goes 91052, in my experience none of these 'gimmicky' things actually work, it's simply that some dogs don't get ticks due to their coat type.

I have friends that swear by diatomaceous earth dusted on the coat, or garlic in food, a million natural coat sprays, cedar, apple vinegar etc or various other things because they all work for them. I've tried them all and mine still get covered in ticks, they apparently have the perfect coat for ticks   The only thing that works for mine is bravecto. I only give them one dose which seems to last pretty much a whole year but still I hate using it.

I have very rarely found ticks on mine and if at all, then on the head.

I shall let you know how I get on with the amber necklace.    First tick is always March.

I have never heard of this 91052 so will await your findings with interest. Living in an area with a high deer (& hedgehog) population and owning dogs that actively collect ticks throughout the 'season' I am always on the lookout for a magic cure.  I do wonder if the collars will be strong enough to take a kicking from big dogs though

https://ambercrown.co.uk/products/amber-collar   if u go 9n the natural animal groups on fb they are very popular

Interesting article by Steve Dean in this weeks dog paper with warnings of problems on overuse of anti-parasite treatments  .....  more or less what most on here have been saying.

It’s funny, but when I used to rescue hedgehogs every single one came in with ticks. Every wild hedgehog I’ve seen locally has had at least one, but I’ve never seen any on River.

My lab only had one in her 14 years too, picked up on holiday in Scotland.

I guess my sporadic only-when-I-see-fleas Advantage applications are enough to dissuade them?

I’m a dab hand with a tick twister tool if I ever do find one though! I must have taken thousands off hedgehogs.

> I guess my sporadic only-when-I-see-fleas Advantage applications are enough to dissuade them?

I very much doubt it, it's really individual coat dependant. I walk all the same places as a friend with a whippet and she's never had a single tick, she can lie in the grass next to mine, mine will pick up half a dozen ticks and she never, ever gets any. Her Dad doesn't use anything at all to discourage ticks, they just can't seem to latch on through her coat.

I wouldn’t have thought Papillon coats would be difficult to navigate for a tick, but I’m by no means a tick expert!

I know with hedgehogs the sick ones had loads more ticks than the healthy ones. They like the border between the softer hair on the face/belly/legs and the prickles, I found most of them nestled just inside the “prickle zone”. Of course the poor hedgehog can’t remove them by scratching or anything.

I’ve heard of young hogs coming into rescue with so many ticks they actually have anaemia. I’ve taken over 100 off an adult. Horrible ticks.

Its odd .ive had longcoat gsd , pomxchi  whose coat was more like that of the pom and currently a fcr. We also have 2 cats who are indoor outdoor and behind our houses are woods . The dogs walk in fields and woods.
Fleas as I said before very rare and ticks occasionally.  I only treat fpr fleas if we have them and ticks ive  ever treated just remove as found
Cats have never had ticks to my knowledge. 
Ive never really worked out wjat it is that makes some more appealing than others. I raw feed and some say that contributes to not getting them but I am sceptical myself

> I know with hedgehogs the sick ones had loads more ticks than the healthy ones.

I'm sure that's not a coincidence, the ticks are making them sick.

> I raw feed and some say that contributes to not getting them

I fed raw for about 10 years and never noticed a difference in tick quantities. I don't feed raw now, two of mine won't eat it but I still feed good quality, grain free (wolf of wilderness).

> I'm sure that's not a coincidence, the ticks are making them sick.

Ticks absolutely make them worse, but I think it’s as much the other way round - sick or injured hedgehogs attract (or retain) more ticks.

The boy with 100+ ticks had a horrific (but thankfully superficial) head wound most likely caused by a strimmer. Fly strike, shock, and dehydration but otherwise healthy.