Hello, I am a first time poster so be as gentle as you can, haha.

Me and my boyfriend are very interested in dipping our hands into the world of breeding (responsibly of course) and need some advice. We are thinking about Labrador Retrievers since we have a great love for the breed and currently have 2 of our own (both on limited registration). 

Is it easier to purchase a female from a very reputable breeder and search for a male to breed her with? Or is it easier to purchase a male and female and breed on our own? I am aware that seeking out male means paying a stud fee or first pick which is fine. We just want to see what our options are. Which ever route we go, the dog/dogs will have all necessary testing prior to breeding (OFA, CERF, etc.) 

Any advice is welcomed and appreciated!

Honestly I think you're putting the cart before the horse. I don't think anyone should want to be a breeder, should think about getting a dog specifically for breeding, to what end? just to make money?

Every good breeder I know came to it later on, as a continuation of their love for some dog discipline, showing, agility, obedience, working trials, whatever. They got a dog, got into training or showing that dog, got hooked on their chosen sport. They then realised that some dogs were better than others for various reasons so they started to pay attention to the winners and the dogs they liked and they booked a pup from a successful breeder, pup arrived and was shown/worked, done much better than their first dog and they started to think they should breed from him/her, and that's how good breeders start out.

You choose your discipline, maybe with the labs you have just now, gundog trials, scentwork, showing, whatever, get involved in the world of dogs and see where that takes you.

Anything less than that is a commercial breeder, backyard breeder, puppy farmer, doesn't matter how well treated your dogs are, or that you've done all the health tests, if you're not breeding for a purpose, if you don't know what you want to improve or add to the breed then should you be breeding at all? Breeding should never be just about increasing numbers, there are thousands of dogs in rescue centres that have simply been bred for the sake of breeding. Make yourselves better than that

You have a great point - Which is why I wanted advice.

I planned on getting my english male lab into some kind of training in the coming months to see where that goes.

Thank you for your input!

Oh that's brilliant, competing in some form really is the best way to learn all about your breed, dogs in general and then to learn how to better your dogs, which is the aim of breeding. You'll have great fun and make amazing friends along the way too

You can't just "dip" into breeding, responsible breeders have a lifelong commitment to all the dogs they breed. You need to ask yourself why you want to breed any dog regardless of breed, the first & foremost reason is to improve the breed.

If you intend to use your own dog, he should be an outstanding example of the breed, with as few faults as possible, his temperament must be impeccable & all his multiple health tests within acceptable ranges. Having a "breeding" pair might sound ideal, but if you are serious about breeding you would need to introduce new bloodlines for your second & subsequent generations.

Are US Labradors Retrievers different to those bred elsewhere?  If so your male may not be suitable for bitches in the US

You will also need to research the bloodlines for health conditions there are no tests for like epilepsy, this breed is known for above levels of epilepsy

I totally agree with Chaumsong.

But to answer the original question, it is much better to buy only the female and then to use an outside stud. If you purchase both, you have no way of knowing if they will complement each other when they are fully grown. What if both of them are incredibly high energy and you want to inject some calmness? What if they are both very tall or small or what if you want to improve on both of their heads.... You just can't know if you purchase two puppies that they are going to suit each other in any way when older.

And then, you don't really want to breed multiple litters from the same pairing. Unless it produces outstanding progeny of course. Much better to widen the gene pool by using different males for each breeding.

The only reason people own both male and female (most of the time) is to cut corners. They don't want to pay stud fees, so they just breed their females to their own male dog. They don't really care whether they are perfectly suited and they are not really breeding for any particular purpose so they just use the same male. These people are back yard breeders at best...

Reputable breeders will take an objective look at their female and decide what her strengths and weaknesses are and will then seek out the best stud for her and the qualities they want, often travelling considerable distance to use their chosen stud....

I knew there was MUCH more to it, which is why I asked for advice. We were just curious to see where all breeders start and what is a better way to start breeding.

There is a 99% chance (more like 100% chance) that we won't even do it, but I've seen plenty breeders who don't do shows or any type of sport with their dogs and only sell their puppies with clean health certificates. Whether that be an accidental litter or purposeful, I know people do it for different reasons which unfortunately, can be right or wrong.

I really had no idea that it was almost expected that most breeders do shows or work their dogs. I'm glad I learned that since I posted this for input to see if it was something we could even consider. It's better to be interested in something and learn the ins-and-outs and determine if it is the right thing to pursue vise not asking and diving head first without any knowledge. 

We have one American lab and one English lab - We couldn't breed them if we wanted to due to the registration.

One serious question though - What if an individual wants to breed his dog to keep a puppy from the litter to keep the bloodline going? Is it bad to do so if the dog doesn't partake in shows, but has great temperament, clean health, etc? Just curious on that.

Thank you for the advice btw!

If you want a pup from the bloodline much better to back to the breeder of your bitch for a pup. It failing that contact the stud dog owner

>I've seen plenty breeders who don't do shows or any type of sport with their dogs and only sell their puppies with clean health certificates.

Well, there are plenty people who do all kinds of other disreputable things in life - it doesn't mean it's the way to go. People who are breeding just with health clearances are not really good breeders. You always have to ask yourselves: Why is this breeder breeding this litter, at this time? What is the purpose of it? If they are not keeping any puppies from it themselves and they are not breeding for a purpose - such as bettering or preserving the breed with regards to conformation or performance - then you have to ask yourselves exactly why are they breeding? The only answer remaining is money unfortunately. And that's not a good reason to breed dogs when it is the only reason and none of the other objectives are there. (I'm actually not someone who thinks it is awful to intend to make money breeding - I think a breeder's work is incredibly hard in every way and far more demanding than most full-time jobs and a good breeder deserves to be recompensed for their time and expenses - but money shouldn't be the only reason for the breeding to be done. If you purport to love dogs and love a breed, you should be breeding to better the breed - and there is no way to breed to better a breed if you isolate yourself and don't compete or work your dog alongside other people's dogs...)

>One serious question though - What if an individual wants to breed his dog to keep a puppy from the litter to keep the bloodline going? Is it bad to do so if the dog doesn't partake in shows, but has great temperament, clean health, etc? Just curious on that.

That is really two questions. To answer the first part, no, it's not 'bad' to want to breed to keep a bloodline going - in fact it's good, because we need to keep as many diverse lines available as possible.

BUT, the second part of your question is where things fall down - 'Is it bad to do so if the dog doesn't partake in shows, but has great temperament, clean health, etc?' - because the question would then be - WHY does the breeder want to keep the line going if they don't know how it relates to any other lines, because they are not participating in any form of assessment? What is it about their dog that means they want to breed the dog and 'keep the line going', when they don't even know if the dog conforms to the breed standard or is able to perform at a high level compared to other dogs in the breed??

If a breeder wants to 'keep their line going' because their dog has 4 legs and a pulse, well, no, that's not really enough to warrant breeding from the dog in a time when we put thousands of dogs to sleep across the globe every day because we have too many of them. If a breeder wants to 'keep their line going' because they are emotionally attached to their dog and want to somehow keep something living forever from it, well - firstly again that still isn't enough justification (because everyone loves their own dogs!) and secondly, it doesn't work like that, I'm sure other breeders will agree that dogs often don't resemble either of their parents(!) in a way which is a replica of the parents.

So we are still left with the question: If this hypothetical breeder is not breeding for money, why do they want to breed their dogs which they don't compete with in any way? What is the justification for deliberately bringing more puppies into the world, when the pups are not from parents who are proven to be above average for the breed in any way at all...? Why do they even want a puppy from their own dogs to 'keep the bloodline going', if the bloodline is not proven through competition or assessment with other bloodlines? What's the point? To be able to say 'ah, isn't it nice that this dog is the offspring of this other dog'....?

My option is it's more of a risk buying a bitch and dog for breeding as you won't know if they will be sutible matches for each other, they may both share the same faults. I've seen people use males not because they are the best fit for the girl but because they are more convenient.
Your best bet if you want to breed is to find a responsible breeder who could become your mentor, guide you threw what breeding would entail, what lines to consider or avoid, help you learn what your looking for in the breed. If you don't I'd also look into competing/working your dogs, this will not only help prove the quality of your dogs but will also help you learn their strengths and weaknesses, what needs improving and preserving, and what other dogs are out there.

Also do keep in mind that you would be responsible for any puppies you produce for the rest of their lives this could mean taking back adults with health/behaviour issues later on and either keeping them or working to get them sorted and in an appropriate home.

Thank you for the advice. I did not expect much of the responses as if I was doing something wrong - I was just genuinely curious as how the whole process works.

I can say this - You catch more flies with honey.

The argument that members giving their opinions straight up will mean that everyone will leave the forum comes up every now and then. Yet it's still going, because of the entire site's reputation of being responsible. Almost all dog groups seem to be on Facebook now yet CD is still going strong. That's rare.

If you went on any of the FB dog groups about showing and breeding you would end up with far, far harsher comments. Or you could find a group for like minded people, there's plenty for everyone. But if you stay within a group of people that have very similar views, in a forum that was set up that way I assume (I've not been here as long as some but joined 16 years ago I think) then it's reasonable to assume that you are not going to change the majority view. You wouldn't join a political party if your views were those of another party  and you wouldn't join a group about one breed trying to convince people that a different breed is just as good. That would just be a waste of your time.

Personally I very much enjoy the friends I have made here. Some are only ever virtual, others say hello at Crufts, but some have become proper real life friends and stayed that way even after they left the forum for one reason or another.

What if an individual wants to breed his dog to keep a puppy from the litter to keep the bloodline going

What or whose bloodlines would this breeder be continuing & why?

There are breeders who breed to continue some odd fault/trait they produce(such as "panda GSDs" or "teacup" sized toy breeds) in the US these breeders do not have the improvement in the breed as their aim, just the money their dogs sell for.

One off litters do not continue bloodlines, only careful regular breeding of quality dogs does this.

I'm surprised you believe you cannot use non AKC dogs in breeding & register their off spring, a friend of mine, who bred Labradors, sent a puppy to the US, who became an AKC champion & produced a good quantity of quality dual purpose offspring registered with the AKC.

> It's better to be interested in something and learn the ins-and-outs and determine if it is the right thing to pursue

Absolutely CJ, you're going about it the right way

> What if an individual wants to breed his dog to keep a puppy from the litter to keep the bloodline going? Is it bad to do so if the dog doesn't partake in shows, but has great temperament, clean health, etc?

It's a good question, that would come under the heading of backyard breeder then, if they were just breeding because they wanted a pup from their dog, but they're not bettering the breed, they don't know enough to better the breed because they're not competing and learning then they're a backyard breeder. If they're doing that with several dogs they're a commercial breeder/puppy farmer.

As I said before rescues are full to overflowing with average, nice natured, healthy dogs, bred by sometimes well meaning but ill informed people, we don't need more of this sort of dog. We need people who are enthusiastic and dedicated to their chosen breed and sport and who will go the extra mile (usually hundreds of miles) to find just the right stud for their bitch to improve on what they have.

As an example, I have a rare breed, at the moment there are just over 100 of them in the UK, 18 in Scotland where I live. When I bought my first bitch 12 years ago there were only 9 silkens in the UK, I could easily have bred from her several times, there are hundreds of people wanting silkens but I had her spayed because although she has many wonderful qualities she has one fault that I know is difficult to breed out so I wouldn't perpetuate it. I know this because I've spent 40+ years hanging around dog shows, obedience competitions, agility shows, racing tracks soaking up as much knowledge as I could from dog people. That's responsible breeding (or in this case responsible non breeding).

> Thank you for the advice. I did not expect much of the responses as if I was doing something wrong

I don't think anyone meant it that way CJ, it's simply that people are passionate about dogs and breeding, it's easy to misinterpret the written word and maybe take offence when that wasn't the intention of the poster. 1234 will always give honest, straight forward advice, it's not meant to be judgemental at all, simply stating the facts as they see them.

There is one poster who likes to stir things up, I've got them on ignore but I can tell from other replies that they're at it again, don't let them tell you people are picking on you, they really are not... don't carry someone else's chip

What sort of training are you planning on doing with your boy? No matter what you choose I think you'll enjoy it, though be prepared to be really embarrassed on occasion. The best behaved dogs can suddenly forget all training in a new environment

I’m a relative newcomer (joined 2.5 years ago) and I just want to point out that the majority of my interactions here have been positive. Sometimes I don’t agree with someone, and I either explain my view or I just move on.

Some posters are more direct than others, and tend to just say things how they see them. Some will word things differently. We often have different opinions because apart from our interest in dogs we probably don’t have very much in common.

In the end though, we all have the best interests of dogs at heart. If a comment comes across as judgemental or even rude, it’s most likely because someone is thinking of what’s best for the dog or the breed or potential puppies or whatever, rather than stroking someone else’s ego. (Obviously there are exceptions, but I think it’s mostly true.)

We are absolutely in favour of good breeders. What constitutes a good breeder will vary depending on who you ask. And if someone’s put off breeding or learning by a few home truths or questions, maybe they aren’t prepared to listen to practical advice from experienced breeders either?

And I personally very much appreciate all the advice that is freely given, even though I only breed peas and potatoes.

I would always advise joining your National breed club, and in numerically strong breeds your Regional club.

Their purpose is to foster interest in the breed, disseminate breed related information, educate, monitor health, run shows, working tests, and act as a resource for the welfare of the breed.

You need an export pedigree from the UK Kennel Club to register an imported dog exported from the UK.

Breeders exchange bloodlines internationally all the time.

I have been involved with friends in my breed of importing 2 males for new blood, as well as twice travelling to mate by bitches from UK to Scandinavia and the USA.

That is an expensive investment in the good of the  breeds gene pool in this country.

I have also exported to several countries to trusted breeders for the same reasons.

Putting the cat among the pigeons here but I don't think there is anything wrong with breeding for pet homes.  And I don't think that makes someone an outright backyard breeder either. That's actually quite insulting.

To clarify:   breeding registered health tested say dogs bred for temperament and good health say once every two years and going to pet homes hopefully reduces the likelihood of said homes resorting to puppy farms and untested unhealthy dogs, keeps a healthy gene pool available a low coi is NOT backyard breeding and is not a bad thing.   It's like saying no one should be allowed to own a dog if they are not going to show or work the dog.

Breeding non-registered non health tested dogs from unknown lines purely for money and which can never be traced and not for the love of the breed IS backyard breeding.

I am a wee bit confused. Was this thread locked for a while ? And then reinstated ?

Anyway, I wanted to reply to Huga's very sensible post, with which I agree entirely. A very wise and experienced breeder on this forum once begged the question 'what is wrong with breeding good dogs for good homes/people' A sentiment I also entirely agree with. We can't all spend every weekend travelling the length and breadth of the country ( pre Covid of course) to gather accolades/rosettes to 'prove' our dogs' worth. But researching the breed, getting advice from relevant breed clubs, maintaining a good relationship with the breeder who hopefully will be your mentor is the best possible start. And of course doing all the relevant health tests, breeding for temperament and ensuring the best possible homes, where the dog will be a much loved family pet.
I'm sure dogs would agree with this .

> I am a wee bit confused. Was this thread locked for a while ? And then reinstated ?

Some unnecessary posts have been removed by the looks of it.

I agree on the pet front as well. Most puppies will go to pet homes and usually only one or two from a litter will go on to be show/working pups. And there are a lot more pet homes than there are show/working ones. They all deserve the highest standards when it comes to health and temperament. I aim to breed show quality no matter whether they go to a pet home or show home. I think the problem is when people just breed pets and use that as an excuse to not do the health testing.

I do think people should show/work their dogs though if they are going to breed, even if the pups go to pet homes as it can be very difficult to look at your dogs without some level of bias.

Surely the aim of breeding pedigree dogs should surely be quality healthy dogs that look like the breed they from? Aiming high allows the beat dogs to carry on the bloodlines & those that don't make the grade for showing/work/activities can ba available to purely pet homes.

It may well be that all the puppies in a litter end up in pet homes, but some are shown/worked etc or even none, but the owner's have the knowledge that they have a typical healthy quality example of the breed,
but breeding to supply  market per sey, big bad feeling will work in their

I would never consider whose breaderser geeder included pet bred, they inevitable lype
ing an. Also. R

To a large degree I agree with you on this, I suppose the question arises over whether people want to actually show or work their dogs before breeding, there are those that don't for whatever reason.
Not sure of my facts here, but from reading posts on this forum over the years I have come to learn that some European countries have a panel of experts who ‘judge’ the dog and declare whether it is of a suitable type to breed from whether as a working dog or as to type, which seems like a good idea. I presume anyone who breeds a litter without having this kind of permission is in some way reprimanded/fined or something.

Wasn't that something the lady who bred Coton Tulears told us about ? Think she is in Switzerland

Breeding for pet homes only WITHOUT showing or working your dogs actually has quite severe consequences over time. Even if all health tests are done, is the breeder going to worry about breeding from parents that have a cosmetic fault? Unlikely, and this is why with many breeds you can tell just by a quick glance if they came from a pet breeder or a show breeder. How often do you see chocolate Labradors with yellow eyes? How many non exhibitors have ever seen a Staffie or Chihuahua or Yorkshire Terrier of the correct size? Pretty much all are up to twice as big as they should be. Cavaliers with longer legs and faces. Both my own breeds tend to have very different looks and temperament. Would a pet breeder know if they are unintentionally breeding from too straight fronts, incorrect movement, incorrect tail carriage? A bad bite?Structure changes can be damaging even if hips and elbow etc have scored well.

This is what happens when people breed pets. Slowly the look of a breed changes as the faults are ignored. So yes, it is damaging the breeds. I have even come across Golden Retrievers with zero instinct to retrieve. The breed standards are there for for a reason; to preserve our breeds. Without paying attention to them our breeds might as well not be breeds, rather just "large chocolate coloured dog"  or "small cream dog".

Now I do feel that breeds should look like their breed and have the temperament and characteristics they were developed for both, but I can understand those breeding for a working purpose. But to breed  both without attention to looks AND character other than being able to live as a pet, that will change a breed.

So sure, breed pets responsibly but not without showing or working the parents, if we want our breeds to survive.

[Surely the aim of breeding pedigree dogs should surely be quality healthy dogs that look like the breed they from? Aiming high allows the beat dogs to carry on the bloodlines & those that don't make the grade for showing/work/activities can ba available to purely pet homes.

Breeding for pet homes and breeding quality healthy dogs isn't mutually exclusive though.  And there is an argument to say that so few become "the best" that dogs shouldn't be bred at all?  Is there really enough dogs bred from champion lines that don't make the grade to enable pet homes to all have a dog?

Huga:

Hear! Hear! to everything you posted. It is name calling, insulting & at the very root of judgmental.  (the world would be a very sad place for many if only show or working dogs were acceptable) IMO or is that me stirring it again? and yes I am the one who has very different views to the majority.  I don't believe it's against the law ...

> To a large degree I agree with you on this, I suppose the question arises over whether people want to actually show or work their dogs before breeding, there are those that don't for whatever reason.

Of course some people may not want to show.work their dogs but how then do they know that they have got a dog worth breeding from or what they need to improve on (and therefore what to look for in a stud)? We all think our dogs are amazing, it is difficult to judge something you love objectively which is where the outside opinion is necessary in my view. In a way it's like a form of research before committing to such a huge responsibility as breeding.

> Not sure of my facts here, but from reading posts on this forum over the years I have come to learn that some European countries have a panel of experts who ‘judge’ the dog and declare whether it is of a suitable type to breed from whether as a working dog or as to type, which seems like a good idea. I presume anyone who breeds a litter without having this kind of permission is in some way reprimanded/fined or something.

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I am under the same impressions a you here Jodi. One of my Polish friends has mentioned this to me although I have not had enough chance to speak to him in-depth about it. I shall ask and report back though. I think maybe it works like endorsements here? If a dog has not been given permission to be bred from by whoever the governing body/judges are then perhaps it can't be registered?

Plus if anybody was only ever supposed to breed to produce a champion for themselves, so once in a generation.  Which means not until age two for many breeds.  First litter before 4.  And none after 8.  That is one litter for ANYONE every four years maximum and only ever one litter per bitch.  Sorry but if you breed more than that to get one good show/worker with accolades then you're breeding for the pet market.

> Is there really enough dogs bred from champion lines that don't make the grade to enable pet homes to all have a dog?

I don't think that a dog has to be champion to be bred from personally. In some breeds it is extremely difficult - nigh on impossible - to make a champion. It actually is impossible to make a Jack Russell Terrier UK champion at the moment because they have not been allocated CCs yet. Yes you could travel abroad to shows and make up a champion on the continent but that is not possible for everyone to do.

For me they need to be having decent success in the show ring or field trials or even be a bloody good gun dog which can be seen by good handlers.

> Putting the cat among the pigeons here but I don't think there is anything wrong with breeding for pet homes.

I think we can all agree that there are far too many dogs, in every country rescues are overflowing, so why simply add to the numbers? Why not only breed from the best, most of the pups from these litters will still go to purely pet (as opposed to pet and show/working) homes, so there will always be enough well bred, health tested pups available from people who have proved the parents worth to breed from without breeding from just any healthy pedigree dog.

In an ideal world of course the answer would be to stop the commercial breeders/puppy farmers from churning out pups, one on here proudly boasted of the 300 pups they had bred. If we could stop these people breeding then it wouldn't matter as much if other pets were bred from, the numbers in general would be lower.

I actually have a friend who has bred 2 litters of golden x poodles, she done all the health testing both parents breeds need and took back 2 pups that didn't work out, so from that point of view she's a responsible breeder... but still there was no need for these pups to be born, there are plenty of oodle/doodles around.

There's no easy answer, but I think we have to try and take the high ground. I do home checks and transport runs for a few rescues, they are literally overflowing and always having to turn dogs away that need help, so why just add to the numbers without a very good reason.

Then looking at it another way, if someone chooses a breed because they like it's look and temperament, they expect a pup to look and act like it's breed, if the parents haven't proven themselves good examples of the breed how do we stop the breed diverging from what it should be over generations. If you've shown or worked them successfully then not only are they more likely to be what people want but you're also going to be better placed to choose the best sire for your bitch, because you'll know what needs improved on. 

Every dog in the world has faults, if you don't show I doubt you'd know your dogs weak points and may double up on them when breeding, and you might say what does it matter if the pups aren't typical, they still look like whatever breed they are, but in time will they still?

It was her I was thinking of furriefriends, but I think it’s Goldmali that has said a few words on the subject.

I do believe there should be some sort of say in how breeding dogs look and if they are able to do the job they were originally bred to do. As has been said, the breed needs to look like the breed and not morphing into something different. For instance if all golden retrievers looked exactly like the far end of working retrievers I have seen, then the breed would start to look like a very dark red, slim setter like dog. If you look at old photos of goldens they look like they are mid gold and are more robustly built then some working bred dogs today.

It’s why I have always bought my goldens from people who are show breeders so that I am getting a healthily bred dog looking like they are supposed to

Chaumsong: In an ideal world of course the answer would be to stop the commercial breeders/puppy farmers from churning out pups, one on here proudly boasted of the 300 pups they had bred. If we could stop these people breeding then it wouldn't matter as much if other pets were bred from, the numbers in general would be lower.

Absolutely agree with this.  But much better for good pups to available from hobby breeders doing responsible breeding.  It's not these breeders who are the problem.

> I don't think that a dog has to be champion to be bred from personally.

I agree, though my borzoi boys were champions it's not necessary, my silken boy that has been used only has has some european junior champion titles, I haven't had the chance to finish his adult titles.

They can't all be champions, you only have to prove their worth, be regularly placed, in fact for me the important thing is to be there at the shows, just by competing you are learning, and better placed to choose the right mate with the help of the people you will meet by immersing yourself into the dog world.

The often misquoted "only breed from titled dogs" is very much an American thought, in no way whatsoever representative of the UK. The UK is the hardest country in the world to make a Champion up in so unless you are one of the handful of breeders right at the top of the ladder (ie regular group and BIS winners at general champshows) then I don't think anyone breeds with the AIM of producing a Champion. We might breed with the hope if it. We breed with the aim to produce a good dog we can show and do well with, regularlywin classes or be placed in large classes. Getting the magical third ticket is often down to luck. You have an excellent bitch that happens to be shown in the same time period as the bitch record holder for instance, then chances are it will never happen.

> They can't all be champions, you only have to prove their worth, be regularly placed, in fact for me the important thing is to be there at the shows, just by competing you are learning, and better placed to choose the right mate with the help of the people you will meet by immersing yourself into the dog world.

This is spot on

> The often misquoted "only breed from titled dogs" is very much an American thought, in no way whatsoever representative of the UK. The UK is the hardest country in the world to make a Champion up in so unless you are one of the handful of breeders right at the top of the ladder (ie regular group and BIS winners at general champshows) then I don't think anyone breeds with the AIM of producing a Champion. We might breed with the hope if it. We breed with the aim to produce a good dog we can show and do well with, regularlywin classes or be placed in large classes. Getting the magical third ticket is often down to luck. You have an excellent bitch that happens to be shown in the same time period as the bitch record holder for instance, then chances are it will never happen.

Exactly!!

> some European countries have a panel of experts who ‘judge’ the dog and declare whether it is of a suitable type to breed from whether as a working dog or as to type, which seems like a good idea. I presume anyone who breeds a litter without having this kind of permission is in some way reprimanded/fined or something.

This is true for Switzerland  at least.   Some  European countries also have limits re the number of litters a sire can be used.   I know of one breeder who moved to another country from her previous country of residence, after this rule was brought it.   Her dogs were used a lot.    As for the Swiss situation, yes as I understood it from a friend, they have a panel of people in the various breeds who do judge the dogs re breeding quality, or not.   I don't especially like that although in theory, it may be a good idea.   It could, I suggest, leave it open to politics.   I have no idea what happens to any breeder with a 'failed' dog, who still goes ahead and breeds from it.   I suppose it is possible that knowledgeable breeders with new stock, don't bother to put a dog forward to be assessed, knowing it won't be passed.  I wonder if the animal being assessed is done without the panel knowing who the owner is?

Going to what happens to the surplus puppies in a litter (for want of a better word).   I was happy to sell to fellow-breeders until I came badly unstuck with that and after that, I vowed never to sell those puppies I hadn't chosen to keep for whatever reason, to a fellow breeder - but to loving pet homes only.

Another point - for sure it's far more difficult to put a title on a dog in the UK than in America/Canada.   I would also say that quite often it's the untitled brother/sister who produces the better stock.   Such was the case with a leading male in the UK.
  
"Getting the magical third ticket is often down to luck. You have an excellent bitch that happens to be shown in the same time period as the bitch record holder for instance, then chances are it will never happen."

And for sure, whilst said top winning dog was being campaigned and was 'on a roll', the breed 'lost' a lot of excellent animals who never made their titles.

> And for sure, whilst said top winning dog was being campaigned and was 'on a roll', the breed 'lost' a lot of excellent animals who never made their titles.

Bassbarr O'Sullivan? I bet him in the group a couple of times, he was ahead of us way more often though, I feel sorry for anyone showing a male basset around 92/93

It's much easier to make up a champion anywhere else in the world as your competition is removed as they get made up, and then only competes against the other for BOB/BOS.

Re 'breeding for pet homes': There are usually enough puppies in a litter that has been bred to show or work, which can go to pet homes. Not every puppy in a litter is going to be show or performance material. Those are the pups that go to pet homes. And then - rescue - rescues of all kinds, go to pet homes. (I realise not every rescue is suitable for every home, but if there is good assessment in place, I do believe it can be gotten right more than wrong.)

If we ever exhausted all the 'extra' pups in a litter bred for show or performance AND we ran short of rescue puppies/dogs, then we could consider breeding for pet homes.

I'm not sure why the OP feels attacked, they explicitly kept saying they were 99% not likely to breed their dogs etc etc and they seemed to be seeking to understand the perspective of reputable breeders - so I gave the perspective of reputable breeders. It wasn't even directed at them, because they had said they don't intend to breed... but seems like they have decided to take it as directed at them anyway....

I am not sure if the op did feel attacked actually thought the whole conversation was excellent on all sides
. I took your comments exactly as you have reiterated , not directed at them but information to answer questions

Lol the end should read

"It may well be that all the puppies in a litter end up in pet homes, but some are shown/worked etc or even none, but the owner's have the knowledge that they have a typical healthy quality example of the breed, but breeding to supply the pet market per sey, ends up with untypical dogs

I would never consider a breeder who only breeds"pet" dogs no matter how good the health test results were. "

I did wonder Ann

So did I, just didn’t like to say.

I'll apologise in advance in the hope that I don't get another barage of 'non existent attacks'.

I doubt if any new poster on here comes to the Forum with the intention of creating bad feeling.  I also doubt that they are emotionally prepared for the way certain Members deliver their responses.

I believe that when you are looking for advice, your first experience in an unknown area will shape that person's longterm perception of people they are likely to meet in that circle.

There have been 4 'newbies' lately that I have counted who have 'verbally fought back' to the point where personal insults have been exchanged.  A Forum shares opinions in my book, not
dictate that it's 'my way or the highway' and if you don't conform to my way of thinking, you're going to be subjected to our group's posting in number.

Longstanding Members are a different scenario.  They know each other, they see past the personal traits of how someone communicates to the point of being blinded to sarcasm or uncomfprtable disagreeing or even denying there is no issue to be addressed.

OK

Getting the magical third ticket is often down to luck. You have an excellent bitch that happens to be shown in the same time period as the bitch record holder for instance, then chances are it will never happen."

A friend of mine was showing a truly lovely Bearded Collie bitch against some top winning Potterdale modern style bitches. Her bitch was a plain born blue bitch with no flashy markings or movement. She had the correct body proportions long ribcage & short coupling,, correct length of coat with totally faultless correct movement, she did have a fault of a slightly weak muzzle. She had a very short KC pedigree being very close to the pre Bothkennar working dogs.  A local Shepherd said on seeing her, that she closely resembled his best ever driving dog, a blue Bearded Collie he had in the late 1930s. She was lucky 3 judges thought she was the best Beardie at 3 championship shows, twice beating the current top winning male for BOB, the top CC winning male once & all the top winning bitches 3 times. She was then retired from Championship shows except Crufts & Club shows. Entries when she was shown were the 300 plus range, so she had to be chosen as the best by both judges of the breed. Unlike in some countries were dogs can become champions without ever competing against another dog!!!

In Germany if you wish to have puppies with the pink pedigree denoting parents are of good quality, your breeding dogs have to pass the Korung several times before being passed for life as being good enough to breed from.
The dogs have to pass a minimum of VPG 1 & pass the Korung, which consists of working test & comparison against the breed standard, both by human assessment & measurements.

Dogs that fail the Korung are not passed for pink pedigree offspring & virtually unsaleable

Thanks Ann. Wonder if that’s the same in all the countries on the continent...

I think that is what I had either heard or read about on here, Ann. Do you know what the difficulty of the working part of the exam is? Is it obedience as well as whatever the breed works at? And finally, what about companion breeds do they have a test or is just the breed standard bit? No problem if you don’t know the answers, I’m just mighty curious and always up for learning something new.