DanniC83:  Luna

She's a tiny little being in the first throws of life!  If she's feeding, moving, 'squeaking' and warm, she's fine.  There is always a teeny one in my experience and they are often the one with most character moving forward. You've been great and got Mum & Babies this far.  Knacked I'm sure but every day will mean they get stronger & stronger.  Learn & enjoy the experience -
lots more fun to come.  Look forward to your updates

You're doing amazingly well. Over the worry of whelping, now its onto newborn vigilance and lack of sleep that goes with it. If you can delegate to anyone for even a few hours and get some rest please do so. Sounds good that Luna is suckling and has gained (even if a small amount). Can't believe that at Christmas you didn't even have Mum. She's very lucky to have found you (and same for the puppies).

I'm truly privileged she trusts me, allows me to place them on her, weigh them and be near her. She trusts me enough to follow me into the garden to go toilet and to be next to her to feed her. She's doing so well.

Fatty the red girl is asleep on her own with a full tummy contented. This is an amazing experience.

You have eased my mind about Luna and Luna is definitely here to stay with me. PS she don't stop sqeaking, moving and wriggling to the teat she even pushes the big one's off at times

Agree, they did well not to loose weight.

In my first ever litter of 4 the first born pup was only 6oz, with the others being 12, 13 and 14oz. All girls.

By the time they were 8 weeks, she was 8lb to their 10lb.

At 11months she was the same size as the sister I kept, and the one I saw regularly.

Don't expect her to gain at the same daily rate as the others.

Once weaning she will catch up the most.

It's not my breed, but could she be too hot?
It would be far too hot for my breed who have thick double coats.

On the other hand my friends with Dibermans crave heat.

How thick are the pups coats, smooth or thick plush?.

For mine I keep the room temp at 22'C, but have the whelping box like a cave sides 30inches tall lined with cardboard to kerp out drafts, and top covered with a blanket.

I put Heatpad in middle so Mum doesn't need to lie on it.

DanniC83:  Had a feeling you would take a shine to one.    First experience is so special - just don't be signing up at the nearest Maternity Unit!  Don't think the Forum could cope hee hee! Hopefully a settled night tonight for all.  X

Never thought I'd be so happy to see a dog poop. Mumma has been a toilet, is eating, drinking and settling. I have washed her back end as it was thick and crusty with blood. I put the babies in a moses basket with a hot water bottle and did a big clean up. Mumma was OK but I could tell she was happy to have them back once she'd had her breakfast and a quick wash down. I have dropped temperature to 22 and unsure if a coincidence but mum seems a lot happier and babies a lot brighter. They don't ofter stop feeding but when they do they still stay close except one who is already the escape artist. Thank you all so much, still early days but every day we make it through I feel more at ease. I managed to get respite for 4 hrs last night. Mumma dog won't let my mum near she growls at her but she will let her be in the room watching and will rest. I'm hopeful in a week or so I'll feel OK to sleep next to her without feeling like I have to stare at her constantly. When do you think it's safe to sleep when they are sleeping? I'm not sure if I'm meant to be awake all the time in case she lays on them

Especially with a first time Mum I sleep with an ear open for every squeak like you learn to do when you have a baby.

Once their eyes are open at 2 weeks assuming she at least appears to be careful then I have gone to my own bed with a baby monitor, but my breed is only 20kg,and pretty natural mothers.

Yes the growling at your Mum is natural, was what I meant about building enough Trust in a previous post.

She will relax more us pups become less helpless.

As you can't know how relaxed she will be, Covid permitting I would not allow any potential puppy owners to visit before 4 weeks.

Introduce Mum to visitors away from pups, and if she seems happy do your interviews with them while they fuss her. This will allow them to gauge her true character.

Then with mine I wll lead the visitors to where pups are with Mum in tow.

She will probably jump in with them to feed them.

Do not let people handle the pups at this stage.

For safety I'd then take Mum away and give her a treat.

Then allow people with cleansed hands to interact with pups on floor, no picking up.

My own Mums love showing their pups off from a young age (as soon as eyes open), but would get anxious if pups picked up.

I have friends in other breeds where Mum would not tolerate strangers with her pups.

You will have to play it by ear.

It is more important for visitors to meet Mum, and for you to gauge how people are with her (kind, but firm is what your looking for).

I remind people that within 4 short months of bringing pup home it will be nearly as tall as the Mum.

I would now let your rescue contacts know that the pups have arrived.

Start taking photos/ videos  each week to show vetted new owners.

Set up Zoom etc for distance viewing for both you and them.

You want to see round their home where pup will live especially round the garden to gauge safety and security of fencing. Ensure fence panels are heavy duty hedge boundaries re-enforced etc, Gates secure and lockable.

Danni, you have paid for help from Avidog if you've signed up for it... You will get very consistent and coherent advice from them. Here, you are at the mercy of whoever replies. You might get great advice from experienced breeders - but you might also get misinformation. I find it all a bit stressful to be honest.

Again:

You are not giving enough calcium if you are only giving what the Collo Cal D bottle recommends. Look at the Avidog calcium calculator and give a type of calcium which is known and can be quantified and dosed correctly. In the UK at short notice, that is going to be Tums. All the digging behaviour, not wanting to be in the whelping box etc, is down to not enough calcium.

Nothing to worry about with Luna, again as before - it is normal for puppies either not to gain much or even to lose some in the first 24-48 hours after birth.

Make up a bed right by the whelping box and sleep there. You will hear squeaks and hopefully be able to intervene. You need to sleep as well.

The temperature in the whelping box will be higher than in the room - the walls keep the heat in and if you put a blanket over the top it's even warmer, then mum is like a radiator... I think often first time breeders keep boxes too hot. If pups prefer to sleep spread out from each other and mum is panting a lot, then probably it's too warm.

I understand what you are saying and that your advice is meant well but the OP cannot leave the puppies to go get tums. To get anything on line is not going to happen in time so surely the Collocal D is better than nothing. The OP is doing her best in circumstances she did not expect when she took the dog on.

Hopefully the OP has someone who can pick some Tums up from a pharmacy for them. Otherwise they might just starve if they don't have food in the house for 3 weeks! And yes, you can order online and receive things in 2 days - using the Collocal D as being better than nothing in the meantime.

I agree she's doing her best.

Hi all. I have paid for avidog I did glance at it but to be honest haven't really sat down and navigated around. I'm having to work from home and this seemed easier as nothing has required super urgent responses since speaking to the vet. (For those concerned I didn't rely on a forum for assistance when I needed instant assistance I called the vet and had two zoom consults) I will stop with the questions here now as would hate to cause stress.

Mum hasn't been digging or been stressed since yesterday early hours. She's been sleeping, eating and is content with them since I gave the calcium. Even if it wasn't the correct dose it's picked her up enough to get through a bad spot. My daughter is going to get the tums and I will check the calculator tonight

Luna has gained 10g since last night, she's being weighed 8am and 8pm, the rest just 8pm as they all seem to be doing OK.

Im going to try reintroduce the whelping box tonight as didn't want to force her back into it when it was causing her stress. I will have to get it sorted though as one of the girls is a runaway.

I now feel content we have got through whelping and all is well, I will close the thread with thanking every single one of you for helping getting us this far.

5 of the 6 pups will be adopted via a rescue, I've not decided which yet as still speaking to a few but I will keep them here with me till suitable homes are found and they will have reassurance for life I will take them back if necessary. Luna will be staying with me forever.

Thank you again from me, Sas, Luna, Betty Boob aka Fatty, pink, purple, blue and green puppies

Danni, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying it causes me stress (it doesn't), but I've seen it cause stress for people like yourself, asking questions, when you get conflicting and different advice and don't know who to listen to. That was my experience when in your shoes and asking questions on Internet forums like this, anyway.

IMO, that's where a unified coherent approach comes in - which is what Avidog provides. If you didn't have Avidog, I'd say for sure keep on asking everywhere else online (and having to navigate through different opinions from people you don't know) - but seeing you've paid for Avidog, it would make sense and be less stressful IMO for you to make use of that. You will get one answer to any question and it will be based on the latest research and scientific advice and you wouldn't need to question it or try to resolve how it conflicts...

That's not to say you can't also ask here, but I just don't get the sense you're using that Avidog resource at all... which would be a shame... having convinced you to cough up hard cash for it...!

But it sounds like all is going well at the mo anyway, and hopefully that will continue for you.

DanniC83:  What a lovely Lady who stepped up to the mark in a difficult situation.

Keep the questions coming. You are doing a great job, well done.

Please keep us updated about the litter. I would love to hear about their progress

Also surely the Calo cal d will have the amount of calcium listed so the correct amount can be given.

It's a long time ago now (21 years since that litter) but my vet (who was also a breeder) told me to give double the dose on the bottle.

Danni you're doing a great job, stay here and keep asking as many questions as you like, you don't need to pay for some american breeding site. Brainless for example is far from her username, she's a very experienced breeder. Everyone is happy to hear updates and no questions are silly (or causing anyone stress)   Some posters think you have to do things exactly the way they say, but that's human nature, there are many paths to the same summit.

I simply cannot resist a pupdate

We have some excellent progress muma is back in the whelping box and seems perfectly relaxed. I put the blanket she was lying on into it so it had the xcent on it (I would have tried anything at that point and it was suggested to me) I moved it into the same spot she was in and the whelping box is a go again! Bless muma her maternal instincts are so high she simply is not content without them all feeding on her. We have one girl indie she's little miss independent and always wants to feed and go off on her own to sleep, mumma then whimpers at her to come back. Luna gained 25g between 8am and 8pm and she's a feisty little madam pushing them all off the boob. Small but mighty. The cords have all fell off and I had a moment of they are growing up so down lol but it was shortly lived!

As for me tiredness hit me in a wave of sickness at 2am, I felt like I could have cried. I phoned my mum almost in tears I think she knew I was struggling and turned up in 15 mins. I went up to bed at 2.30, mumma didn't growl at her this time and I slept until 6.45. The pupmares are a very real thing I had a dream I was lying in one and woke up in a panic, you hear them squeaking in your sleep, it's crazy just how much I love them!

PS with the collo cal it does give a dose for whelping bitches, I followed this but I will have the tums today when my daughter brings in supplies.

All is well and 3 now have names. Luna, Betty, Indie 3 to go

Please keep the updates going

>PS with the collo cal it does give a dose for whelping bitches, I followed this but I will have the tums today when my daughter brings in supplies.

If it's any help, many years ago my vet recommended ColloCal-D when my bitch developed eclampsia, and it was ideal. She recovered within hours and never looked back. Personally I wouldn't trust anything else; the correct dose is worked out for you (essential for exhausted  breeders!) unlike the 'rough-and-ready' aspect of human indigestion tablets.

It sounds like everything's settling down after the upheaval of the whelping and she's settling down as a new mum. The more peace and security she has now (feed her in her bed, settle down in the same room as her with a book to pass the time etc, no visitors!!) and only make her go out to toilet a few times a day then run straight back (one of these times is ideal to change the bedding) the better. In a few days she'll probably be asking to go for a walk again (and that's fine, she can go if she wants)!

Too late to edit and clarify the no visitors bit. Obviously nobody can be expected to be awake 24/7 to monitor the new family; you'll need one or two trusted people to do shifts so that you can get some rest! But wait at least until the pups eyes are open and they're up on their feet (about 2 - 3 weeks) before risking inviting anyone else to come and visit them. From 4 weeks they'll benefit from meeting strangers of all ages in their secure environment to develop happy, confident temperaments.

We have got somewhat into a routine with mum, I feed her in the box and offer her water every hour in the box. At 8am weigh in I put them all in moses basket, mumma goes out to toilet and I swap over the bedding. Then 1 by 1 weigh and put back into the box. Then this is repeated at 8pm at the moment as I want to weigh Luna and I die twice, Luna is a lot smaller and Indie didn't gain as much as the others last night. All are now over 500g except Luna who is now just under 300g. Muma is getting fed 6 smaller than normal feeds a day with unlimited TOTW High Prairie puppy in a bowl to graze on. She can lean over box and eat but I still hold bowl for her incase she forgets to eat. They have taken a lot out of her and she looks smaller along her back end so she's being fed with this in mind.

Yes, no visitors till puppies are weaned is my thinking. If I'd have owned her for years it'd be different (well she wouldn't have had them) but she's new to me so I need her to feel as relaxed as possible

Visitors from 4 weeks is ideal, as it's the age they start exploring the world ouside the nest.

I haven't bred a litter for 30 years but always had a bottle of ColloCalD in stock when I was expecting one. Only twice did I have girls who began to show symptoms of eclampsia but ColloCalD worked beautifully both times.
I am in awe of the calm way you have dealt with this unplanned change in your circumstances - your rescued girl has certainly landed on her feet. I am pleased that you will be staying on here, and am looking forward to hear your updates.

Nobody other than a close neighbour saw our puppies much before 5 weeks.   For starters, many coming in earlier were disappointed not to see long ears!!!    In any case, with the current situation, having visitors probably isn't possible at the moment.   Video, probably.

Mumma dog is certainly in control of this situation, today at her normal walk time she kept going to the cupboard where her harness is kept. My mum was here making food and dropping supplies. As mumma made it clear she wanted to go I went with it, I took her to the quiet field 2 mins walk from the house, she was off lead in a empty field for 5 mins wagging her tail trotting along then I see something almost click in her so I put her lead on and she super charge pulled me home to the babies. All was well they were still asleep and my mum was having a cuppa. We was only out 15 mins and she was washed off before getting back in with the pups but it was so nice to see my girl just being herself again.

Another milestone today pink one wagged her tail, it's the first tail wag and I got it on video. I'm hoping it was an actual tail wag as in the can do that at 3 days old and it's not the dog equivalent of a baby having wind and smiling.

You are amazing

I'm just a lurker on here, have never bred ( well, dogs anyway !) but am loving this thread so much !
As a retired midwife and owner of 2 retired breeding dogs it's really captivating reading.
Well done Danni, maybe you could set yourself up as a doggie midwife?

Yep by4 days when they are feeding they will wag enthusiastically.

Brilliant updates, you're doing a great job

You're doing an amazing job, my girls always want to start going out for a quick walk, do exactly as you've been doing and wipe her down before she gets back in, but it makes them much happier in my limited experience if they can have a few minutes off. You might find she starts to snooze outside the box and pop back in to feed them as she relaxes more and they grow up. Loving the updates!

They are all 5 days old today and already I can tell some of their noises apart.

Mum is now contently going upstairs for a break where its cooler and she's happy to go out to the garden whenever she needs. She does look at me before she goes just to tell me to watch them.

I've checked for hernias, cleft palates, hare lips and anything else I've read to make sure none need any special attention and all is well.

Mumma is eating like a horse and drinking well.

So far the weight gain from birth to 4 days is as follows (luna is being weighed twice a day)
                  
                    

Light pink  birth 453g day 4 630g
Red birth 515g day 4 725g
Blue birth 373g day 4 584g
Luna birth 252g day 4 385g
Dark pink birth 430g day 4 620g
Green birth 460g day 4 649g

My son is having a pup I think he's going to pick red girl as she's a greedy fatty that never stops eating and he relates to her, he's calling her Zaya. I'm keeping Luna no way on earth I could let anyone take her she's the reason I don't sleep to make sure she's regularly getting fed. My partner just lost his 14yr old staff a month ago and last night he asked if he can have blue boy, knowing how good he's been in the 8 years I've seen him with his old girl I am happy for him to have one. He's picked blue boy who he has called Milan. I'm just left with 3, I think I'm going to go with the Mayhew to assist in rehoming them. I adopted a dog from them many years ago and they was fantastic with keeping on top of my dogs life but I've not completely decided yet.

Im enjoying the peace and quiet, I keep watching YouTube videos of pups 3 weeks to 8 weeks and I've got some exciting times ahead.

I wish I could put up some pictures I'd love to share these beauties but trust me they are all gorgeous!

We Lost Luna this morning. I don't know why there was no signs that anything was wrong. She if anything was eating the most but was y really putting on in the last 24hrs. She went from 540g to 589g from day 8 to 10. I was going to take her vets this morning if she hadn't gained. She was still squeaking and going toilet OK I just woke up to her away from the others on the heat mat alone passed. Left mumma with her who was guarding her for 15 minutes and now we have a vets appointment with all of them in an hour. I don't understand what or why she was feeding, active noisy but she did have an almost dwarf look about her.

Im truly devastated I'd already imagined the beach walks and her growing up. I only had the joy of her in my life for ten days but I love every moment of all of them. I'm gutted she didn't get to see the world and play and be naughty, the guilt I have for sleeping last night is unreal.

RIP little Luna you was tiny but you have left your tiny paw prints in my heart forever

So sad, u have worked so hard for this litter and I know u had taken luna to your heart.
Rip Little girl

So sorry to hear this.

Oh no!  so sorry to here this! Take Care x

I am so sorry to read this. Please don't beat yourself up, sometimes these things just happen.

Just been to the vet, he's pretty much said I shouldn't be taking the mum out. All remaining pups are OK but the next smallest one has a touch of diarrhoea. He's given me synulox antibiotics for all of them twice a day but has told me to keep mum in now till they are weaned fully. No signs of Luna being squished or anything visual he can see as to why she's passed away. I'm gutted, this hurts so much and I'm terrified I'm going to lose all of them. I fell asleep for a few hours last night for the first time a done dies. This literally sucks

I am so sorry. All I can say despite such a short life she was loved, she was happy, she had warmth, comfort and security. some are sadly just not meant to be

Oh no so sorry to hear that it must be heartbreaking to lose one when you've been working so hard to look after them all. It's possible there was just something internal not quite right and it caught up with her. Try not to beat yourself up too much, you are doing great! <3