Hi, I wonder if anyone has any ideas about what can be causing this diarrhoea? He is a Labrador pup, we only got him 4 days ago. His poops were fine on day of arrival and most of the next day, but since then we haven't had a formed stool, just puddles. Usuallylly about 6 times a day. He is fed on puppy Iams which is what the breeder had him on- I do intend to change it gradually but not sure when the best time is to do that. He has eaten nothing at all except his Iams since he came, except for 2 or 3 minuscule pieces of chicken for training treats, but he had already started the loose poops by then so I don't think it was that. I am in the process of regiSTERING HIM WITH THE VET AND SORTING OUT 2nd vaccination appt (he's just interfered with my caps lock, sorry) and I shall be getting him seen asap if this doesn't clear up. He is eating quite well, is very playful and alert etc, but a bit more sleepy today than he has been, so looking for advice really. Thank you,
Liz

It could be the change of water and the stress of leaving mum ans siblings and the drive home.
Obviously if he deteriorates at all then quickly to a vets

so about 2 days of liquid diarrhoea?  I would be getting him to the vet today. He is too little and too young to allow this to carry on.

He shouldn't be vaccinated whilst his poops are like this - for vaccinations to work, you should only vaccinate healthy animals, that's what the guidelines say which the vaccine manufacturers make. (Unfortunately not all vets seem to realise this, so please delay that vaccination if he continues to be unwell.)

As a first thing to try, I always give Panacur 10% at the giardia dosage (the dosage is on the data sheet which accompanies it). That way you can eliminate both worms and giardia as a cause.

Oh I may have misled you- he isn't due his 2nd vaccination for a couple of weeks, so I definitely won't be having that done until he's well. Thanks for advice about Panacur, and I'll keep that in mind. In the meantime I'll get him to the vet, thank you.

I wouldn't give him panacur when he already has an upset tummy unless I had good reason to think he may be riddled with worms, did the breeder give you a note of when he was wormed and what with? If he has been wormed regularly he won't need done just now.

I would try and get him seen by the vet today, just because young pups can deteriorate so quickly. With adults and older pups I would miss out one meal then start them on boiled chicken and rice and dose with either VetIQ stoolfirm (available online or from pet shops, petsathome etc) or a similar kaolin/pectin type gut soother.

If he's only recently had the 1st vaccination, it could actually be that causing the runny poop.... The Lepto4 component is known to cause strong adverse reactions. (I don't give it to my dogs.)

UPDATE
Thank you so much for all your replies and advice.
We have had a trip to the vet's, and it appears he has a belly full of worms. He was also a bit dehydrated and he is underweight. So he has had subcutaneous fluids, Panacur, probiotic paste and an electrolyte powder for his water. Also one tin of gastro-intestinal prescription food, and they want to see him again tomorrow. He had a BM as soon as we got home, and it was almost semi-formed. I hope all this treatment clears it up, poor little fella.

Iolanthe:> We have had a trip to the vet's, and it appears he has a belly full of worms

Oh goodness.  Little Soul!  Was there no worming record or advice given in your Puppy Pack when you collected him?  Just as well you have been so vigilant and the wee guy got some help.  On a lighter note, in 2 or 3 days he'll be dashing around as if this has never happened.  I think I would be having a word with the Breeder though as worming is a basic need for any Puppy.  Good Luck.

My pap came home with worms too, despite being treated with his siblings the week before.

We had about a week of diarrhoea - not terrible, but requiring a few middle-of-the-night puppy baths, poor thing.

I thought it couldn’t be worms since he’d been done, but after I gave him milbemax SO MANY dead worms came out I was shocked.

I can only assume whatever had been used on him previously hadn’t worked, for whatever reason. Maybe parasites can get immune?

Oh dear, Hoggie there was no puppy pack. He just said his flea and worm treatment had been done but it doesn't look as if it had now. Anyway' he has had his first dose of everything the vet gave me for him, he's eaten some of the prescription food- with gusto, actually, and he has his electrolyte drink down which he isn't very keen on, but he has been drinking it. Poops are soft and shapeless now rather than runny so I hope he will be better in the morning.
About the breeder- I don't quite know how to phrase this, but he isn't a knowledgable or experienced breeder like a lot of you on here, in fact I think this was his first time. I don't think he's meant to be irresponsible, he just hasn't researched anything properly and gone off half cocked and had his pet bitch mated, and kind of felt his way through it all without a clue really what he should be doing. That was the impression I had, but the puppy was there and looking for his forever home, so we went ahead. I don't honestly think he would take on board anything I said to him about worming etc. I am wondering how the other seven puppies are as well.
Liz

Iolanthe:> there was no puppy pack.

Oops!  The most important thing is that the wee guy is on the mend and you did the right thing getting help.  Please don't think I'm preaching but it does pay dividends to build a relationship with a Breeder well in advance.  At his age his little poos should be similar in texture to toothpaste.  Now you have him balanced out, I'm sure he will be keeping you busy over the next while!  Re his siblings - my new owners go on a group chat.  Maybe the Breeder could message them and ask them if they want to chat between you all?
Always good to have a fellow 'puppy learner'! X

Well done for taking him ,  a bad worm burden is serious at that age but he will be on the up from now on with the correct treatment.    I reckon he will be a LOT livelier in a few days time.
ps I would tell the breeder- he then has the chance to warn the other puppy owners that his worming has failed and they all need doing.

So you probably want to treat him now for the worms, wait 2 weeks and then treat him again. Until you don't see anything coming out, basically....

another thing... get him insured on a lifetime policy asap.  It will likely exclude anything going on in tummy as he has had vet treatment but will cover other mega expensive things like elbows, hips and ligaments.  Its important as his breeder sounds feckless and probably has done zero health tests. must be a lifetime policy not a yearly policy .

I would go onto the Kennel Club website
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/health-test-results-finder/
and input his parents names, and see what if any health screening was done.

If none as I suspect check on the Grandparents. With luck they may have been health screened.

If still nothing then my advice is a lifetime insurance (one that reinstates the sum insured each year, and continues existing conditions) with the highest level.

Hip and Elbow surgery is very expensive.

He is on lifetime insurance, it was the first thing I did. Of course I'm not covered for any of this because of the first 14 days exclusion clause.
I have no idea what his parents names are as I didn't have any papers, and I doubt either of them are KC registered. As I said, I think he is just a chap with a pet bitch who has "let her have a litter", We were really struggling to find a puppy after losing our 13 year old Lab, and this one turned up just when we thought we would never find one. I can't even say I wish we hadn't bought him, because we love him so much already, and he needed his forever home just the same as any other pup.  We have just been to the vet for a follow up visit. He still has diarrhoea, but is much more lively in himself. No sign of any worms in his stools, but he has only just had his 2nd dose of Panacur an hour ago. I have to start collecting 3 day samples to take in on Saturday so it can go off to the lab if things continue. I'll do another update before then. Thank you all so much for your valuable advice and help.
Liz

if still loose when you return to the vet ask to check for giardia. very common and very treatable

I will do Weimed, thank you.

And if it's Giardia Panacur can be us3d to yreat it. It will mean him being dosed for longer can't remember exactly, may be something like 10 days.

Here is the datasheet:
https://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-455815
"Also for the treatment of domestic dogs infected with lungworm Oslerus (Filaroides) osleri or protozoa Giardia spp., and cats infected with lungworm Aelurostrongylus abstrusus.
Also has an ovicidal effect on nematode eggs."

Yip Panacur is a wonderful medicine.  Having tasted it myself, it's horrendous but the ailments treated are ten times worse.  Toffee Yoghurt hides the taste when mixed in so no probs getting our canines to have it.  Brainless has provided the data sheet/bible which I have framed under glass in my outside kennels. Brilliant!

> if still loose when you return to the vet ask to check for giardia. very common and very treatable

I'd gone there too.  My Basset came to us with this and was treated with Panacur which didn't clear it - he needed Metronidazole before we started getting anything like clear fecal tests.   It was a new one on me as we'd NEVER had this is any of our home-bred hounds.  I think you do need to rule this out and sooner rather than later as it's a nasty and can pass to us.  We had to resort to using Jeyes Fluid outside, which didn't do the grass much good but still.

UPDATE
We had the initial report on the faecal sample 3 days ago, showing Giardia. He was already half way through a course of Panacur, so we completed it hoping this would sort the matter out. Now, 12 days after the diarrhoea started, coccidia has also been found. The vets have now prescribed co=trimaxazole so I hope against hope this clears it up. I haven't even had this puppy for 2 weeks yet, and all this. I'm so upset, and I'm ill myself now with D&V.
Liz

You need to see your doctor too as both can be passed to humans, so sorry you're going through this at what should be a fun time with pup.

Campylobacter can also be a cause for pup and human, and a pain to eradicate.

As said, my Basset came to us with Giardia and was given Panacur which didn't work.   He had to be given  Metronidazole before we started getting neg. fecals.    And even then, with clear fecals, he'd start the with good firm stools, but returned to far from that by the end of the day.   We were tearing our hair out over this.   He was only put on the right track by a visiting vet, from the sister practice, who prescribed him a course of Hills I/D going to a home-made fish and potato diet.   After which I bought commercially made fish and potato food which did the trick.    Every now and then he'd not be good, but in general that part of him, his problems, was ok.

As I gather, even if the protozoa is hit, some may become buried in the gut, to appear when the dog is under stress.

Thankfully no Coccidia or Campylobacter was found.   But he did show some roundworm ova - despite my being assured he'd been wormed before coming to us!!   This from what should have been a knowledgeable experienced breeder who I'd known for as long as I'd been in the breed.

Giardia is a nasty thing.    I was horrified because in all the years with our home-breds, we'd never had this!!

Again you need to clean everywhere (it will transfer to humans) and I had to use Jeyes Fluid outside which didn't do the grass much good.   And if you aren't already (Covid) wash your hands lots!!

My whippet caught giardia as a pup and was given panacure plue antibiotics. It did clear up but left her belly very sensitive for a whole so she initially had white fish and rice then moved onto Arden Grange puppy sensitive white fish and potato with treats from same range.   now she is grown up and her belly has healed and she no longer has a sensitive tum and can eat pretty much anything. 

Its not nice your puppy developed this but it is fixable and he will get better

ps neither I not my husband became ill during this despite her being a very licky puppy. normal hygiene should keep you safe

The two main treatments for giardia are Panacur (which is fenbendazole) and metronidazole (an antibiotic - which also has anti-inflammatory properties).

However, recent research suggests that metronidazole TOTALLY NUKES the microbiome, which had not recovered even months and months after treatment: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jvim.15871

It nukes both GOOD and BAD bacteria. And is a major cause of dysbiosis, which can be lifelong - especially when it's administered to little puppies whose microbiomes are immature anyway.

So metronidazole should really be seen as a last resort and Panacur (even a couple of courses of it) should be tried first, along with clay/binding agents, dried pumpkin, probiotics.... and time. (As long as the dog's condition isn't deteriorating.) The immune system can overcome giardia to the point where the dog becomes symptom-free. In fact, in much research it has been found that a huge % of HEALTHY dogs with NORMAL poop, carry giardia. In a healthy dog with a good immune system, it is actually pretty 'normal' to run a fecal test and find giardia. So having giardia in poop and being clinically affected by giardia with symptoms are not the same thing.

For this reason, if symptoms resolve, don't go down the path of doing more fecal samples and continuing treatment if they find anything - if symptoms resolve, you're good to go, even if giardia is still found in the poop. It means the immune system has got on top of it, as in that huge % of healthy dogs with it.

Just to say absolutely none of my hounds up to and before Frankie, had ever shown giardia in fecal tests.    Having said that, since Frankie, I discovered that giardia is around far more than I'd realised.

Also neither of us picked it up, thankfully!

> Campylobacter can also be a cause for pup and human, and a pain to eradicate.

My partner got Campylobacter shortly after we got River and I did wonder if he picked it up from the puppy.

Mind you River went back to normal fairly quickly after we wormed him (although he did need a homemade fish/potato diet for a while longer), so I guess he didn’t have it.

Partner can confirm that it’s not very pleasant, it took weeks of antibiotics to shift and he felt terrible.

Lots of interesting information here, thank you, especially about metronidazole and its effect on the microbiome. I hadn't realised this, but fortunately my vet hasn't prescribed it and I was half expecting her to. Well there are now some signs of stools going back to normal. In general, the first parts of the evacuation are like soft toothpaste, followed by a shapeless blob at the end. This is a huge improvement. The vet has said she wants to screen another faecal sample after the course of co-trimaxazole has finished, but now I'm not so sure it needs doing having read your comments. I'll see how well formed his stools become I think. Thank you all.
Liz

Iolanthe, yes you can go by symptoms... By the way, you can also screen for giardia yourself without involving the vet - you just post some poo off and these folks will analyse it and tell you if there is giardia in it, costs £12: https://www.wormcountsfordogs.co.uk/worm-egg-count-kits.html  Then you can think about things without feeling pressured to treat if you don't want to.

bloody vet charged me about £200 for a stool screen when ours was bad!!

weimed:  > bloody vet charged me about £200 for a stool screen when ours was bad

WHAT!  and they say we don't get rediculous charges? - especially from the National Vet Groups!

Wormcount are very good and are happy to talk u through things
Very useful instead of using chemicals for worming u can send of samples as frequently as u want.
They usually say about every 3 to 6 months

Very useful 1234.  I didn't know there was this service.  I'll definitely be using it. Thankyou.

The only thing to say about it as compared to the vet test, is that it only tests for giardia. Not campylobacter or coccidia or anything else. So if you want a broader screening you have to use the vet test....

That's certainly a site worth bookmarking for future reference. This time though we're trying to eradicate the coccidia as well. Some of puppy's poos have gone back to diarrhoea again since yesterday. Talking about vets' fees, I have had a tot up and I've paid £350 so far and we have only had him 15 days. I found out a bit more about "the breeder" and none of it's good. My fault. I followed my heart instead of my head after a very painful doggy bereavement, but a huge part of me is glad I did, because I got him out of there. There will be a nice dog at the other end of this one day, no matter what it takes. *Tearful emoji*
Liz

Iolanthe:  > back to diarrhoea again since yesterday

Hopefully as the results come back and the right balance of medication is found this will all be a distant memory.  Think you have just been unlucky Liz. The Vet fees soon mount over time and it might be worth while informing the 'Breeder' that you would like compensation for the costs, stress etc.

We've all been guilty of following our hearts at times but as you say, he is now with yu and safe! I have always been of the belief that Giardia came from dirty water, bowls, bedding which there is absolutely no excuse for - I dare say there will be many other reasons too but basic cleanliness should be a must.

You'll get through - good luck x

For people who have dogs with cast iron guts and predictable poos, I think they just don't get the anxiety created by it all. Like, are you going to be woken up 6x that night to take a dog out. How can we go out and do XYZ and leave the dog behind without coming home to carnage? How to train a dog (or even have control of a dog off leash therefore) when the dog's appetite means they won't eat food? What about dogs with sh*tty butts coming inside and getting on the furniture? ARGG... And so on. And the anxious awaiting of what-is-going-to-come-out-this-time? And then the slight hope when it is a LITTLE BIT better. Or the total disappointment when it returns to liquid. The fear of having to live with this permanently (somewhat irrational, but you brain does these things at 3am)... honestly the sheer STRESS of RUNNY POO problems is just massively under-rated. I think there should be a paper written on all this... "The human mental health impact of diahorrea in dogs." Or something. You can tell I have scars

onetwothreefour:  > You can tell I have scars

Goodness me, yes - think I can.  Personally I have experienced it all, seen it all and had a puppy with the 3 concerns highlighted. You cope by being prepared. Newspapers ready to slide under their butt at the first sign of squatting. mobile dog bath ready to be filled and a warm outside kennel if you have to go out.  Last wee part of the post, never mind what the human/owner impact is - how the hell do you think the little dog/puppy is feeling? Mercy me!

> I think there should be a paper written on all this... "The human mental health impact of diahorrea in dogs." Or something. You can tell I have scars

Having gong through that with Frankie, I can totally relate to the mental stress involved - what's coming out THIS time!!

And it's even worse if you get some tummy bug going through multiple hounds