I’ve ummed and ahhhed about writing a post before and always came to the conclusion it would do more harm than good, create trouble that I don’t want to be apart of. But here goes: *may need a cuppa, its a long one*

We got our first dog in 2007 (I was a young teen then) didn’t know a whole lot about dogs other than I REALLY wanted one. We’d had one rescue before then, and other members of the family had dogs, again mainly if not all rescues. Due to the fact my mum had us children to look after and my dad worked full time they decided we needed a dog rather than a puppy. My dad met up with a friend of his that had a fox red lab (they weren’t as common now as they were back then) that was part trained and highly recommended this gundog kennel. Cutting a long story short mum phoned up and spoke to someone who worked there and explained what she was looking for. A family dog that was already trained that we could all walk together, but that wasn’t too in your face as we had a lot of children over and some weren’t keen. At that time they only had two part-trained dogs for sale on their website. But the lady said there was one that they weren’t advertising that could be what we were looking for. We drove there and saw her, each got to walk her round on the lead and we decided we wanted her. I was young and not paying attention and so can’t remember the details - but there was talk about her paper etc. They said that they hadn’t put her up for sale because they couldn’t bare to part with her but it was unfair to her as she was a failed gundog and they no longer took her out on shoots. My parents asked if they could speak to the trainer but they said he was busy. He was in the room next door and we knew that because he was on the phone to someone screaming and angrily shouting - the whole thing now looking back was rather odd. Our girl was very scared now when i look back, she wasn’t pulling but crouching to the ground in fear that if she pulled she’d get hit. But we collected her a week or two later, my parents did and got her paperwork too, although I don’t think they were told about transferring documents in their names...at least mum says she doesn’t remember them every telling her that.

Apparently I don’t remember just how bad the first week, or even days, were mum says. She wouldn’t leave mums side, constantly shaking. Wouldn’t eat either and cried night after night, mum ended up sleeping on a mattress next to her. She was petrified of other dogs, scared of everything except us children and mum. We also took her to the vet to get her checked, and they informed us that she was healthy albeit a bit underweight (so not healthy then) and had already had a litter (she was just 18months and was due to come in season when we got her). Mum phoned the place up on the third day to say that this wasn’t the dog they’d described and also confronted them about the fact the vet had said she’d had a litter. They admitted she’d had a litter ‘by accident’ before she was 1 when a friend was looking after them and a male dog had got with her whilst in season without them knowing?!

Anyway we decided to keep her, me and my siblings couldn’t bare to part with her and although she wasn’t the dog mum wanted necessarily I think she didn’t want to take her back to that place. A lot of meetings happened at home, and it was clear that she was petrified of men. She’d bark and bark and back herself into a corner when a strange man walked in the house, if they were wearing a hat even worse! It was clear to us all, even as kids, that she’d been beaten into submission. Sometimes and adult would put their hand out and her head would duck and cower. The first year or two were the worst in terms of her being scared, that’s how long it took. She was a flight risk and if a dog approached her wrong she’d often run away or run out the park home. But she slowly started trusting us more, as I got older and learnt more about dogs I helped her with training, which did help. But there was always a fear there, I think genetically she was nervy and then how she was treated before made her worse. In hindsight maybe we should’ve sought a behaviourist, but what little knowledge I or my parents had back then I wonder if we would’ve found the right one - in my opinion only R+ (Or LIMA) would’ve worked.
She got better and we had a good few years (although we saw a vet that said due to how nervous she was they thought she wouldn’t make it much past 8 years old). But as she got older that nervousness, that was once cowering and running away from dogs, turned into aggression and reactivity. She was still scared of certain people, mainly men, and we were very aware of arguing around her and tried not to...she’d stand by the door staring at the ground with her head lowered if we started shouting, even at the football or olympics I solidly remember we jumped up and yelled in victory and she got up slowly and crawled to the door and looked back at us so scared.

I think she didn’t trust anyone, but out of us all my sisters and mum she felt the most comfortable with. I do want to add that she was fine with dogs we introduced slowly into the house, we had a lot of guide dogs coming and going as well as puppies and she was always fine with them, apart from one who ended up bullying her so we had to let him go. I also had her round my girls and she loved them in fact, she’d cuddle up so close to them to keep her warm. She played with one of my girls, the first time we saw her properly play with another dog. She hadn’t played before coming to us and didn’t know how to, when my parents picked her up they had said she didn’t need any toys. So me and my siblings taught her to play, and eventually she did. The place she was most free was at the beach, again she’d never been to the beach before being with us and she was the most reliable there and the least scared, she loved it and you could literally see it pouring out of her when we took her there.

In appearance she was what we got told was a fox red ‘working labrador’ skinny in stature and in face. (I know now that that is NOT what a working lab looks like, sigh) You could tell she was a labrador, but she just looked slightly different. Deep red though. Then as she got older her deep red shade went whiter and whiter, until she got to about 9 when just her ears and hocks were red. Her coat went very wirey too. Her eyes that seemed always too round and big, seemed to get more prominent and her back and legs were awful. We took her to the vet and they agreed that it was most likely due to bad breeding and due to her age and nervousness (she was a shaken mess when at the vets) probably best to not put her through surgery.

It’s also important to point out in total I’ve met 6 other dogs from those kennels that people have bought, 4 part trained, and 2 as pups. All in my opinion are very nervy dogs. One was even more nervy than ours. So much so that the owner can’t stop and chat to someone because the dog then won’t go anywhere near her. I’m also pretty sure this dog has dwarfism (SD2). They all have the same features my girl had, too bigger round eyes for labs, to skinny face not the proper lab head etc. Only one is fox red but she has also gone white and wirey...although not as white.

She passed away last year days before she turned 14, peacefully in my arms, the most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever experienced. Gosh she got us through some tough times and although so nervous, she did have so much love to give and spent the first 4 years (after the first few weeks) in my bed every night.

After she passed and I was able to sort through her things, I came across her original papers. All from the kennels she was originally at. They had her Kennel name on and I suddenly realised in all these years I had never looked up her documents. So I went on mykc and what I found shocked me. As I said we got her in 2007. Her documents and everything we have is ligit. And when I searched her up comes two litters she apparently produced, after she was already ours, not only that but they were both in 2010 within 6 months of each other. So either we were given false papers by the kennels, which I really doubt because they look real, or they’ve had multiple litters and faked the mum because they’ve overbred there girls perhaps or they don’t have good health results etc?

So I guess 1) I’m posting about it because I’m angry still after all these years, because of everything she went through and the amount of suffering she must’ve been through there on top of what I’ve then found out about them. 2) Because not many people ‘get it’ apart from doggy people who know about ethical breeding and training etc etc and 3) Because the kennels are still relatively ‘big’ in terms of selling and producing pups. I will add they’ve started selling on ‘that’ popular dog selling site as well as their own website.

I don’t know what to do, or even if it’s worth doing anything...do I go to kennel club because realistically what will they do now, there’s not much they can do but it does lead me to think what else has that kennels lied about if they’re faking documents or faking the dam of litters etc. In an ideal world I’d love to out them and for them to be over but I know it doesn’t work like that. The reason I haven’t put anything on socials, and why I won’t explicitly name them is because honestly I don’t want the backlash from them or other in their circle. When people come to me for advise then I say steer clear from them and point them in the direction of good breeders (other than myself ha ) If this is as far as it goes then that’s fine, I just feel I need to put it somewhere. Would definitely like to hear peoples thoughts and or advice if they think I should take some sort of action in terms of reporting them? I think legally it’s too late to do anything, because I was too young to remember details of sale etc anyway.

P.s. they advertise themselves as working kennels but haven’t got any dogs they’ve bred or trained themselves that are even FTW, or even do field trials as far as I know. They state the dogs are ‘field trial champions’ but they have non proven that actually are champions and have won anything.

I think a good chat with the KC is in order here.

Sorry for your loss.
I have heard of a case where the kc have put * on pedigrees I believe it was alleged a bitch couldn't have been the mother of a litter. It's a shame it wasn't before her passing as you would of been able to use DNA testing to prove it. Does her papers have the microchip number on them? If so does it match hers? If no chip number the breeder could claim they gave your parents the wrong papers when they picked her up.

Defernatly sounds like she didn't have a good life there before your got her and good for your family for sticking by her despite her issues.

They were able to do this as your parents never transfered the paperwork to their name, so no-one was the wiser that she wasn't still with them.

I have bred since 1995, and according to KC records have some 40+ dogs in my name since then, even though I have only kept 10..

Had I been dishonest money motivated 'greeder' (and owned my own male dogs), I could have overbred my girls every season using the identities of these untransfered pups I had bred.

In popular breeds I could also have gone to the local puppy farm, bought whole litters and added them to the registrations of my own, and sold them at a premium.

It's quite interesting how large some litters are on paper from such breeders???

The thing is a true breed enthusiast would have no interest in doing such things.

As a rule we only want to breed enough for ourselves and to add to our bloodlines, there would be no point to dishonesty, registration is about record keeping and keeping track, not maximising some perceived added value from a registration.

Volume breeders have a whole different agenda.

I would certainly contact the Kennel Club, photograph the papers, which hopefully had the date of sale and the sellers part signed.

This hopefully would have her supposed offsprings registrations cancelled, and any of theirs.

This might result in disciplinary action, and stop them registering future litters without proof of parentage.

It might even save some of their bitches being overbred, though unregistered pups these days seem to sell well anyway.

You could present evidence to the Local Authority that Licence them.

I would expect Fraudulent record keeping is against breeding regulations.

Mad for labs

I’m so sad for your girl but sounds like she had a wonderful life. It upset me reading about her being so scared of shouting watching sport. I home people that treat animals and children badly have a life of pain in the afterlife.

I have very strong feelings about why as the only body that is for dogs in the U.K., the KC should step up to the plate and only accepts health tested dogs as well as ideally DNA profiling as a way to prove parentage. It would put a stop to a lot of the bad practices I think have gone on here.

Personally, I would write to the kennel
Club with a shortened version of what you have said and then don’t imagine they will do much about it. I think you would do well to take it to a journalist and if you go on Facebook and join a group called Kennel Club Fight for your Rights there has been a lady on there who is pulling together something about all the mistakes they have been making and how it’s allowing puppy farmers and thieves to flourish.

I hope for the sake of your girl you get some justice. Just because it was a few years ago doesn’t mean it should be ignored.

And I second Brainless’ comments about sending the evidence from KC to the local authority.

Unfortunately you over estimate the legal powers of the KC, because the KC is basically only a register of pedigree dogs & its constitution & legal powers are restricted. It would be an offence under the restriction of trade legislation for them to impose  restrictions on registration to health tested dogs without the support of ALL the breed clubs for the breed.
The ISDS can restrict registrations because you have to be  member to register puppies with them(both breeder & stud dog owner also has to be a member) to eye tested/DNA tested dogs

I do understand your point Ann, except that they are a private business and therefore can set their own rules. For as long as they position themselves as the ‘authority’ for pedigree dogs, they should be acting in a way that protects the future of pedigree dogs. This means closing easy loopholes for these types of scams to operate. Encouraging better practices and putting thresholds in place should be a minimum, I believe most breed clubs have their own code of ethics on health requirements that it would not be onerous to implement.

I suggest you look up restriction of trade legislation, unless registrations are restricted to members, as per the ISDS, any such move is prohibited. There was a court case back in the 1960s that is the president that this falls under.

The breed clubs' code of ethics was imposed by the KC

I have a high level commercial role so I am familiar with it. I just don’t agree it could be applied here. It wouldn’t be preventing anyone from going about their business apart from breeders who opt to breed without due care and attention.

The law will move towards all breeders requiring licensing and health testing requirements as part of a number of conditions, whether that is agreeable or not, when that time comes the KC will need to adapt its registration requirements.

74Alexandra:> The law will move towards all breeders requiring licensing and health testing requirements as part of a number of conditions, whether that is agreeable or not, when that time comes the KC will need to adapt its registration requirements.

I totally agree and I believe all Doggie Lovers would see this outcome as the 'holly grail' being returned!  I just think it is such a shame that everything takes sooooo long to become Law. Licensing is such a 'hot potato' with mixed views  even from those who are dedicated to Testing & Scoring.  I became Licensed when the Law in Wales changed in 2018 and found it a very easy thing to do.

As Breeders I have a feeling most of us are there or are continuing with their work in progress to achieve the criteria I would like to see but if the KC restricted registration to only those of us who comply, their revenue would be seriously dented and they have made such a song and dance about how revenue from ALL is the only reason they survive.

Maybe when things calm down with sense returning to Dog Breeding and the fallout from the beginning of the Pandemic hits home re irresponsible Puppy purchases, a fresh approach will be necessary (so sad that there will be much suffering before that time comes) IMO.

My current dogs were born in 2006 and 2008, so these are current dogs, and the falsification will be continuing.

It may be impractical for all litters to be DNA parentage tested in the short time from full weaning to homing, if done by cheek swabs. Taking blood samples for very young pups is not easy.

When the DNA test for prcd-PRA with Optigen became available for my breed it took, two legs to get enough blood from Inka at 4 months.

Not something I'd likevto put a litter under.

It certainly could be used for those breeding above a certain number of litters, as they can easily absorb the costs.

In USA DNA testing is required for frequently used sires, something like 7.

Thanks everyone for your comments - they’re all appreciated and have helped back up everything I think and feel.

I’ve been looking at the folder she came with, mum kept all the documents that came with her. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I know mum feels like she was conned...she felt conned within the first few days of getting her but when she did phone up she also got blamed for how the dog was. Me having only been a young teen at the time didn’t have a clue much about dogs, I’ve learnt off others in the ‘doggy world’ rather than my parents and having seen the care and attention I put into my own dogs and how carefully I select a stud and look at lines health tests etc etc when I do occasionally have a litter it makes us all but mainly my parents realise just how bad this breeder was - and could still be.

She never came with the change of ownership documents and mum was never told about them (this was before you could do it online too). So yes they’ve kept her as ‘theirs’ and used another girl instead of her. I’ve looked at the two litters that she’s down as having and so many of the pups are affected by different diseases and have bad hip and elbow scores. Which obviously means that they could and have carried on breeding the female used under our girls name because no one would know that she had produced litters affected by xyz.
The other thing is apparently mum only signed one contract of sale, which they kept - I know we can look back and think how stupid but I guess it wasn’t as easy back then to find as much info about good and bad breeders as it is now, and she had no idea about buying a dog as had only ever rescued before. As she said the breeders got recommended to them so they thought they were good and everything only made sense a few days into her coming home and then even more sense once I got heavily into the dog world, specifically labradors

Because of this ^^ I wouldn’t trust any of their tests or scores were genuine or of that specific dog. I know labs with 0/0 hips exist but they’re aren’t a horrendous amount, and they have half their dogs with those hips but are managing to produce pups with scores a total of 42...it doesn’t add up. They also have carriers down as studs but then aren’t making sure the females they’re being used to are clear of even tested...some haven’t even had hips and elbows as a minimum.

There’s not much in terms of what people have said online, it seems a lot of things have been taken down...like I said they don’t seem the nicest of people. But the more I’ve searched the more I’ve managed to find the odd few things said about them, there’s stuff on labradorforum that used to be popular a few years ago at how they were treated. Someone had posted something that sounded very similar to what we had with our girl but they sent their part trained dog back. Also a few people who’s pups had severe hip dysplasia and had to have surgery etc. Then finally I found a tweet from quite big British dog trainer (she has over 3 thousand followers on her fb page etc etc) saying “I have never seen dogs who were so scared & such a mess that were from a 'working dog breeder'.Do not get a dog from ...”. - sums it up for me.

I’m just baffled as to why they’re so popular still. It’s sly the way they do things, they health test some things and not others. Then have some dogs that have other tests that the other dogs don’t have but don’t have the tests that the others have. Like I said I fully believe they’re faking stuff where they can and doing the bar minimum when they have to do things the proper way maybe?

I will try and gather as much information as possible and send it to the kennel club, and like 74Alexandra said, I don’t expect much to be done - especially considering it’s hard to prove she was ours in terms of documents. And yes I may see what council they’re under and see if anything can be done in terms of that.

Thanks 74 Alexandra, it still upsets me thinking how scared she was of everything even after years of being in a safe home.

I struggle to understand why the KC push for people. To look for good breeders but don’t help to actually ensure they’re recommending good breeders. I mean on top of falsifying the mother, she has been allowed to have 2 litters writhing 6 months of each other be registered...I thought that wasn’t allowed in the KC and it had to be a minimum of 12 months?!

What I find so hard is the fact I know she’s not the only one to come from there in the state she was in and that they dress themselves up as being working gundogs but at the end of the day they’re glorified puppy farms, looking kosher at a glance but look a little closer and they’re far from it

Madforlabs;  Think I know who they are....did a couple of the people you observed at this place have Chinese/Oriental features?  If so, Breeders in my area are aware of them and they have been reported several times without redress.  The father is very very wealthy and tends to find money talks.
Sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree but some things you describe have happened to many others x

> I struggle to understand why the KC push for people. To look for good breeders but don’t help to actually ensure they’re recommending good breeders. I mean on top of falsifying the mother, she has been allowed to have 2 litters writhing 6 months of each other be registered...I thought that wasn’t allowed in the KC and it had to be a minimum of 12 months?!<br />

I think the KC need to be much stricter on all of this. They will allow 2 litters within a year if it is an 'accident'. Quite a few of them happen to supposedly responsible breeders apparently. Even though Alizin is available immediately after an accidental mating has occurred. One of my girls was on day 25 of her first season after her first season and I was pretty sure (wrong apparently) that she was done. Turned round and she and my dog were tied It was a Saturday afternoon so the vets was closed but I was there on the Monday for the first Alizin jab just in case. She is now kept apart for 31 days just to be sure the little floozy!

> What I find so hard is the fact I know she’s not the only one to come from there in the state she was in and that they dress themselves up as being working gundogs but at the end of the day they’re glorified puppy farms, looking kosher at a glance but look a little closer and they’re far from it

This is also why licensing is so much under debate among breeders I think as looks can be deceiving and a license number gives an air of credibility that may not be just.

Think I know who they are....did a couple of the people you observed at this place have Chinese/Oriental features?If so, Breeders in my area are aware of them and they have been reported several times without redress.  The father is very very wealthy and tends to find money talks.

Thanks Hoggie but no these aren’t the owners of the kennels I’m talking about.

It’s a shame that there are others about that are similar thought and can buy their way out.

> She never came with the change of ownership documents

Surely she came with her Kennel Club registration certificate?

The change of ownership is on the reverse where the date of sale and signatures of both parties goes.

Even if it's not signed, the fact you have the certificate should give KC and Council reason to do something.

And that is why all those wishing to register with KC should be members (in the Rabbits you have to be a member if BRC to buy ID rings).

Surely she came with her Kennel Club registration certificate?

Unfortunately not, she only came with the original hip and elbow score papers. I know sometimes the KC registration documents or separate but she neither kc reg cert in her file or change of ownership.

I’ve only briefly gone through everything, now that I’m off work I can have a proper look through to see if there’s anything that would be sufficient enough but I do know for sure there are no other kc documents other than the hips and elbows.

Madforlabs:  > It’s a shame that there are others about that are similar thought and can buy their way out

So true and totally unethical in every way and then there's the question of the 'money takers' keeping quiet - really selfish, uncaring & cruel individuals

Been reading through all posts and when you accumulate all the points you have made, the occurences of such cruelty and the majority of members backing you, I'd be inclined to cause uproar and brow beating with the KC until someone takes notice.

The worst scenario is that they do nothing but the best would be to initiate an investigation and have the RSPCA or similar dog welfare society ban them.  Anything inbetween would still be a bonus!

Sometimes just one voice can rally many X

I think going to the Local Authority that is responsible for Licensing and vetting them  is the way to go.

Contact the Local Councillors.

If you can gather evidence from other buyers, but falsification of litters sold as your bitches offspring should do something.

Vet records would be helpful, but unfortunately so many vets don't record their regustered names ( I have always had to insist).

What name was on her Microchip records (even if you changed it), you would have had to transfer details when you got her.

That would help prove she was no longer in their possesion when the litters were registered.

There is a legal president that was the result of the KC refusing to register dogs bredby a commercial breeder. The Breeder took the KC to court & won, so regardless of what you believe, restriction of trade does apply. I can't remember the details of the case as it was so long ago now(over 40 years)

But the KC has rules for registration, including on health grounds for Irish setters with CLAD.

They will only alliw 4 litters from a bitch, though law allows 6.

So KC could require breed specific, and blanket health testing.

It was a Saturday afternoon so the vets was closed but I was there on the Monday for the first Alizin jab just in case

Your vet used Alizin against the directions for use issued by the manufacturer then

From the NOAH Compendium

Special warnings for each target species
To reduce the possibility of lack of expected efficacy, avoid the use of Alizin until after the end of oestrus and avoid new mating before the end of oestrus.


Ooh I did not know this Ann thankyou! I shall remember that should I need to use it again (hopefully not!). She had the two doses a couple of days apart I know that. She wasn't bleeding and didn't seem swollen anymore hence why she wasn't separated. I was so shocked when I turned round.

I expect they considered her as having finished her season as by the Monday she would have been around day 27.

I believe the reason for the timing is to ensure no further matings occur during that cycle after the injection.

> I expect they considered her as having finished her season as by the Monday she would have been around day 27.

Yes quite possibly. It worked either way with no ill effects on her or her 2nd litter.

> I believe the reason for the timing is to ensure no further matings occur during that cycle after the injection.

Makes sense!