Yesterday on my walk I saw a Labrador looking pup, looked about 5 months old with the most awful bowed front, like that on a really bad Bassett but more leg.

I've had a 5 month old Lab pup in my classes (already overweight) needing a bilateral hip replacement when a bit older. Owner assured me both parents were hip-scored, but had forgotten that I always ask for dogs' KC names on application forms.

So of course I looked the dog up on Mate Select when I got home, only to find that neither parents were hip-scored.

Sometimes you've got to think that people have it coming to them really. It's the dogs that suffer most though, and they are innocents.

This is one reason I am so upset about the KC stating they will no longer print health test results on registration forms!!!

'parents were hip scored'.

I swear puppy buyers just take the breeders word for it hook line and sinker without asking for any proof or asking for the score. Was a 'hip scored'  GR litter 15 years down the road from me, half the litter effected with server HD. A couple were pts as owners couldn't afford the surgery. Oh and that hip score number, none of the puppy buyers had any idea. Doubt it even existed.

‘Vet checked’ is always fun too. I genuinely know a breeder who didn’t have her dog xrayed or scored as the vet ‘felt his joints and they’re fine’. He’s had at least a couple litters now.

I guess once you know how it all works it’s obvious, I wish it was a little bit easier for puppy buyers to understand the difference between vet checked, hip scored and the meaning of the score. It’s very possible to learn if you want to, of course, but people are naive and think ‘vet checked’ or ‘hip scored’ must mean it’s all good.

Tectonic - no way! I thought it was just me who had heard that! Literally I know someone who bred her Labrador and advertised them as having great hips and joints as the vet felt them and they were good - it shocked me then that people can be so naive and just took her word for it. The dog had 11 pups, both parents weren’t health tested at all, 1 pup at 8 months was diagnosed with severe elbow dysplasia in both elbows which I called from when she was about 4 months old due to her awful looking front legs and gait, similar to what you’re describing brainless. Oh and to add this ‘breeder’ went on holiday during the time when the pups were 2 weeks old and whilst she was away someone dropped one of the pups and broke its jaw. All pups were sold and more than a grand each...way before covid.

omg yes I remember a lady I knew from park who had a german shepherd same age as my own dog- we literally met first time our puppies went to park- I could see at a glance her beloved pup was 'wrong' . he was apparently vet checked as all good but even at that age could see his hips and elbows were not normal. He walked like a crab. was crippled with elbows and hips by time adult and cost her a fortune. vet checked claim  is worth 0.

I do to some extent blame the Veterinary proffesion for not being more proactive re preventative Healthcare.

Plenty of advertising bumphf for all sorts, not one poster re BVA.Health schemes, DNA testing or Alizin.

Even asking reception staff about BVA eye testing drew confused replies.

All dogs used for breeding should at the very least be Hip Scored and eye tested, and if purebred or known cross then appropriate additional DNA health tests.

To be honest thre are panel DNA tests like MyDogDNA that could apply to every dog, where 100's of diseases and traits are covered.

As a start I'd like to see any litter already bred and registered with KC from untested parents would have permanent non breeding health endorsments and could not have registered offspring until tested.

For hips I'd like to see an absolute upper limit, say 25 total, as I believe that a score up to about 20 is functionally normal.

I know rough comparisons with Hip grading like OFA would place scores above 25 in the Dysplastic categries, 18 - 25 Borderline.

Every puppy/dog will bisit a Vet Practice, few General Public will ever visit the Kennel Club website.

As someone already well versed in dogs it can be a nightmare to find specific Health information there easily.

Totally agree. When people tell me they plan to breed, I try to tell them about health-testing. They reply that they are going to go to their vet - as if their vet is the fountain of all knowledge for their specific breed.

I try to explain that their vet is unlikely to know what specific health-tests are required for their particular breed... and many vets will just do a quick health check and leave the owner with the impression that the dog is healthy enough to breed from.

But again, it's the old fight whereby vets are seen to know absolutely everything about dog health and others like us end up struggling to try to insert some element of doubt or questioning....

PS Here's another example...

A chocolate Lab was attending my classes and the owner told me one week that she'd had a 'funny turn' whilst exercising that day and had collapsed. This had happened before after exercise but the dog always recovered and seemed fine afterwards.

Hmm - I told them about EIC (Exercise Induced Collapse) and emailed them the link to order a DNA saliva swab from online.

Obviously because I'm not a vet, they didn't listen to me one iota and instead went back to their vet again.

Their vet ordered a CHEST X-RAY with sedation, an ECHO-CARDIOGRAM and then took BLOOD for the DNA EIC test.

Of course the chest x-ray and echo came back clear - and of course the blood came back as Affected for EIC.

How much stress for the dog and money for the owners would have been avoided if they'd taken the advice of someone who knows about the conditions prevalent in a breed?? A quick £60 DNA test done at home by the owner using a swab, versus being admitted to the vet for an entire day of expensive tests costing hundreds of pounds.... all should not have been run until EIC was ruled out.

The other misrepresentation I tend to see is 'from champion bloodlines' then you look at the pedigree and the sire has 1 great grand father with a title and none on the dams. Hardly champion lines

As somebody who keeps a close eye on adverts for some of the common crossbreeds, I have noticed that in the past few months or so DNA testing have become VERY common. It's the norm rather than the exception. However, the way these people advertise their pups lead people to believe their pup is certain to be healthy. There's never any other tests done, like hip scoring. DNA is currently being used as an excuse IMO. It's a very useful tool, and I'm glad people are using it, but it isn't a replacement for everything else.

Quite, and are they DNA testing disease yraits, or the Pet ancestry/colour traits.?

Brainless it tends to be genetic diseases in what I'm looking closely at, which are the many Poodle crosses. I imagine that was it any bull breeds the answer would be different.

Brainless:> Pet ancestry/colour traits.?

Funnily enough I have been watching this new trend for Silver Labradors which was highlighted as 'desirable' on one of these magazine programmes.
Looking closer at them, there is a Breeder in the South currently advertising Stud Fee with another silver dillute bitch at £1500.
If the bitch is any other colour they offer a Stud Fee of £750.  What they fail to say is that unless both parents are silver or dillute no Puppy will be born
Silver in colour as the dominant gene dictates.
I then looked the colour variant up on line and Silver Labs have so much more hereditary problems than any other current colour. These SILVER Puppies
are selling between £4 & £4.5K.

Watch this space....I'm sure there will be a lot more promoting soon

Is silver dilute black (blue in other breeds) or dilute chocolate (lilac/isabella)? Or something else?

Silverleaf:

> Is silver dilute black (blue in other breeds) or dilute chocolate (lilac/isabella)? Or something else?

Dilute Chocolate is the gene colour highlighted.  Need to do a bit more digging to get all the info re the lilac/isabella variant but it would certainly fit.
The Offspring should also asthetically have grey/blue eyes into adulthood.

mm quick google and its mentioning colour dilution alopecia in silver labs. lovely - spend a fortune on a rare colour and the fur drops out!  same happens with Dobermanns in that colour.   Its getting a bit boring anyhow every breed producing grey /blue/silver .

Labs - I love the solid gleaming black ones best- so smart.

Other breeds the colour I really love is the bright red brown of the pure vizla- such an eye catching bright shade. (sorry I am sure the colour has a proper name )

Arent some of these so called silver Labs also crossed with Weims too? There was a huge thing on that at one stage with the colouring and often the head, ears and eyes resembled the Weim more than the Lab

weimed:  Exactly alopecia, retina detachment, deafness etc etc etc !  Terrible.
PS  My Labs are all black or fox red - lovellllly x

suejaw; > Arent some of these so called silver Labs also crossed with Weims too?
you could be right it would certainly account for a lot of things re ears & eyes.

Okay, dilute chocolate. So why on earth don’t they call it lilac or isabella like almost every other breed does?

I see dilute black labs are “charcoal” rather than “blue”.

I can only think that it’s a way to make people think it’s some kind of special new colour or something, rather than basically the same dilute shades we see in so many other breeds.

I also wonder what else is involved with alopecia, as I’ve seen plenty of blue border collies with perfectly fine coats.

> I also wonder what else is involved with alopecia, as I’ve seen plenty of blue border collies with perfectly fine coats.

Ah but they don't have a short coat.

Some do Barbara
Silverleaf the most common thing you notice is lack of fur on the ears to differing degrees

Do you mean some standard coated collies suffer dilute alopecia, ir that some collies have smooth coats?

I always thought even the smooths were double coated?

Coat issues caused by dilute colour and by under active thyroid have been in Dobermans.

I wonder if the 2 are connected.

The other breed type I have noticed it in is Staffords and their crosses. Though they also seem to be prone to immune issues manifesting as Demodex.

Some have short coats you didnt say single coated and yes there are blues that suffer from dilute alopecia it's way not the best idea to mate blue to blue

I have always been in a quandary at Companion/Fun shows with Novelty classes for short and long coats.

Is a dog with a thick double coat like my breed short or long coated???

Is a dog with a thick double coat like my breed short or long coated???

Used to wonder that with all 3 GSDs, 2 especially had quite heavy coats but definitley were not 'Long Coat' Shepherds but then in with G'hounds, pointers etc .................

Usually in borders it's termed rough coated and smooth  so not really long or short either

satincollie.  > Usually in borders it's termed rough coated and smooth  so not really long or short either

Yes this has always been how collie coats have been described in my neck of the woods,
Rough coats need as much grooming attention as any poodle  - daily due to how dense the double coat is and smooth needed very little - maybe once a week as any single coated dog.
Labs as totally different breed have double coats but smooth in appearance just to add further confusion to the mix.

ISDS dogs are Rough, Medium or Smooth, my preference is for the last 2, much better for working in all weathers & very much the more popular amougst shepherds & farmers. All double coated of course, the later 2 being almost self cleaning with no feathering & body coat to carry mud or snow

> All double coated of course, the later 2 being almost self cleaning with no feathering & body coat to carry mud or snow

It's what I like about my breed, they are definitely 'coated' but wash and wear, no featherings to knot or tangle.

Except during a moult a comb through and quick brush/slicker of the topcoat once a week, and they are good to go.

Rain runs off, and dirt and mud drops off when dry.

Yes its great when they have the self cleaning coat I love mine for that. come in muddy dry off and look clean with just a brush through to make sure they haven't collected any twigs goose grass or grass seeds even the odd slug depending on the season and the area I have exercised them.

Brainless: > <br />It's what I like about my breed, they are definitely 'coated' but wash and wear, no featherings to knot or tangle

Know it's not entirely related to the thread but gives me an opportunity to update on TSASIA (SAS for short), my little rescue spaniel:

What a wonderful little dog.  Her heart scan was cancelled for 21st Jan but she is bouncy & loves fun irrespective. Doesn't gobble food down anymore but takes what she needs
as my other Spaniels and has made a friend of one especially (Alice).  Her coat is growing back after her shaving under GA and she is more sable than expected.  A little joy to
have around even though she has stolen the cat's bed!

That's so nice that she has slotted in and found her place.

So pleased to hear Tsasia is now happy :)

> Silverleaf the most common thing you notice is lack of fur on the ears to differing degrees

I think it’s often the case that non-black hairs can be a bit weaker and more inclined to break, at least from what I’ve seen in papillons. B/W and tricolours almost always seem to grow better ear fringes than sable/whites or ee red/whites. (Dilute or chocolate/liver isn’t permitted in Paps as they have to have black noses.)

But not every dilute has alopecia. Perhaps there’s something else being going that only really shows up in dilute hair, so it could be carried by non-dilutes but doesn’t actually affect them (much)?

Ahh Hoggie so pleased to hear she’s doing so well - meant to ask how she was, lovely when they start making little friendships and have fun with the other dogs

Silver labs are weim crosses.  They pop up on one of the groups I'm in FB allll the time and some of them barely look like labs at all.

Yep, I’d agree - the ones I’ve seen have the head of a weim and are too long and leggy for a Lab.

I’m also unsure about these ‘charcoal’ labs that are being produced, as someone mentioned before, I’ve never seen a diluted black lab by anyone I know or know of in their litters, or mine.

It also worries me about the number of fox reds being produced, they’re lovely and I’ve met a few that have been bred really well. But we had one, who sadly passed last year couple days before her 14th bday, who had obviously been bred awfully. I was in my early teens when we got her striking fox red she was then. The older she got the more white she got till about 9 and from then on the only red parts were her ears and hocks, everything else was mainly white. Her muzzle was too thin for a lab and eyes too big.  Her coat was too wirey for a lab as well - I’m certain she was crossed with something else. Since I’ve grown up and got more into dogs and done my own research I’ve found out more about the breeders. I won’t go into it but they’re big big breeders, mainly of labs - gundog working labs. I wouldn’t trust them at all. I’ve seen another fox red come from there that went through the same thing. Also seen 4 other labs that came from that place and ALL were/are nervous wrecks. Too low to the ground in my opinion and I’m sure one we know has dwarfism - would put my money on it. Non of them look ‘lab’ enough for me. All the ones I’ve seen have big bulgy eyes, almost pug like. It’s weird. I still find it odd how big they are in terms of how many litters and puppies they produce. Although I find it interesting they have started advertising on Pets4H now too. I love the fox reds, and maybe when they get slightly less ‘trendy’ I’ll get one, but like always I would only get one from a good breeder.

Madforlabs:  Cheers for your response.  She is a little star x

Nikita:  > Silver labs are weim crosses

Yip, my thoughts exactly.  Breeders trying to cover this bad breeding practice up claimed the were 'drakeshead' Labs.  The trendy affix.  Some Labs as I'm sure you know have finer features (more so females) but they are Labs in every other way. Chest. limbs & hind quarters should all be Lablike (if that's a word!)

Madforlabs:  > The older she got the more white she got till about 9 and from then on the only red parts were her ears and hocks, everything else was mainly white. Her muzzle was too thin for a lab and eyes too big.  Her coat was too wirey for a lab as well.

Oh goodness, how awful in hindsightyou feel she was badly bred.  I've got to agree with you sadly.  Fox Red is my chosen colour too and a true example would not lighten over time but darken over time with the exception of around the eyes, muzzle and possibly under belly which is indeed a sign of being elderly.  I have the 11 yr old grandmother with me to last years litter and she is a 'deep bronze' colour and even though she is getting a bit short sighted now, her eyes are completely in line with her other facial features.  Personality wise - still naughty!

It's a shame some Breeders have advertised fox red when in fact they are orange/light ginger.  Kind of loses the attraction as they grow into adults & beyond.
Fantastic you had a lovely lifetime of companioship irrespective x

NB  I wonder if the KC's refusal to acknowledge colour (ie all classed as being yellow) lets individuals decide what's red & what's not when advertising?

I forget who posted it earlier (about outcrossing), but I guess if you do some choc lab x weim crosses and then backcross to labs enough times you could get something that’s silver but with enough lab in it to be registered (I supposed you could claim it’s chocolate or something).

I do quite like the colour by itself but I agree the ones I’ve seen don’t really look much like a proper lab.

Silverleaf79;  > <br />I do quite like the colour by itself but I agree the ones I’ve seen don’t really look much like a proper lab

Yes they are very attractive in colouring & having grey/blue eyes adds to their intrigue but with all the health problems (a lot more than standard colour Labs) they are a bit of a gamble!

The trendy ‘red’ colour is now being pushed by some for golden retrievers as if it’s something new and exciting. Working line goldens tend to be the darker golds, some very dark gold, but now it’s become a new marketing thing to try and make them unique when there are many, many dark gold working lines goldens born every year. And try telling someone who paid over the odds for a trendy red golden that they are actually just a normal coloured golden retriever and they get all shirty.
I do get suspicious however that there are some who are crossing darker goldens with Irish setters to get an even darker red dog

Jodi:  > And try telling someone who paid over the odds for a trendy red golden that they are actually just a normal coloured golden retriever and they get all shirty.

So true and it's normally ignorance on their part that they believe they have an unusual dog. Goldens are a beautiful breed who tend to have longer coats but that doesn't show the true fox red muscle reflection like a short haired Lab when in good condition. IMO

> I do get suspicious however that there are some who are crossing darker goldens with Irish setters to get an even darker red dog

This is such a shame as Irish Setters have longer coats too.  Goodness, before we know it purebred will be a thing of the past and crosses will be the new 'must have'.  So sad

There’s a golden-type dog that we see out walking sometimes and she’s a really deep red colour, almost auburn. I suspect she’s got some Irish setter or something in there because it’s even redder than a fox red lab.

Poor girl has a lot of health problems unfortunately. No idea if that’s due to breeding or not.

Silverleaf:  > Poor girl has a lot of health problems unfortunately. No idea if that’s due to breeding or not.

Oh dear.  How sad. They have such beautiful temperaments.

Lot of these 'rare' colours are result of a lot of back breeding- the colours that are recessive you need it on both sides so lot of close breeding back to relatives to keep the colour in. not so bad if started with really healthy fully tested good standard dogs but if they were that good the breeder wouldn't be playing about crossing to weims etc to get a new colour.  A lot of potential for inherited disease to explode with all that inbreeding without care.

I saw a first generation weimaraner x lab ages ago- odd looking dog- strange ashy liver colour with a dainty little weimaraner head on stocky lab body- looked very mismatched, the stocky lab body does need a nice solid head to balance out well.