Hello everyone,

I'd be grateful for your thoughts. I'm a potential first-time dog owner (although lots of experience with dogs from family background).

I am in discussions with a breeder about buying a Labrador puppy. Most of the things you'd look out for seem to be right: good hip and eye scores (dam and sire). Breeder promises KC registration, puppy pack, microchip, vet check, 4wks insurance. Breeder states that puppies are being raised in the family home. He has about 3 other dogs. This is this dam's 3rd litter and he has bred from another dam of his. He also owns the sire. He says his dogs occasionally go on shoots.

I can't do a pre- visit to the breeder due to lockdown, but will be doing a video call.

Two things give me pause.

1) I was surprised that the breeder is not taking deposits. Says he is a 'man of his word' and it's 'bad enough' that he has to charge such high prices as things are! (His prices are pretty middle-of-the-road judging by other prices on Champdogs).
2) I don't yet feel I have been particularly 'grilled'. I have come to understand that a good grilling is a positive sign! However perhaps breeder doesn't feel the need as I have explained the sort of environment the puppy will be raised in etc. which should be satisfactory for all but the fussiest of breeders. (Family home, people around all the time, lots of stimulation, exercise, my wife and I both have experience of dogs...)

Should either of these things worry me? What further questions could I ask to make sure he isn't a puppy farmer who is 'showing' the puppies at his home?

I've tried not to give away the sort of info that might identify the breeder, and would be grateful to keep discussions in the abstract.

Thanks so much for any thoughts.

Tom

A puppy farm is more likely to want a deposit then most decent breeders, so the lack of one being asked for isn’t something I would worry about
Yes, many good breeders will want to know all about their prospective puppy buyer and will ‘grill’ them to one degree or another. Without being in your position it’s difficult for me to judge how the breeder is conducting conversations with prospective owners.
Going by my most recent experience both breeders I saw had what could be called an extended chat over a cup of tea at their house and it was all very friendly. They were finding out about us, working or retired, newbies or experienced dog owners, knew to the breed or very familiar with them, the kind of life the puppy would have and grow up with - what we did with our time basically. As a long term dog owner I was to a degree grilling them as well, just wanting to know why they were breeding at this time, seeing proof of health tests and what they did with their dogs. All very amicable and friendly rather then something more formal. It can be far easier to glean information by being friendly and amiable and relaxing so that the person opens up and chats away giving all the info required. I worked in a job for some years which required security vetting at intervals and did notice these methods being used when I look back on it

I would never take deposits prior to a litter being born and in fact, don't take deposits at all. I would be very suspicious of any breeder asking for a deposit before the pups are born as there's no guarantee that there will be a pup available.

So far as being "grilled" is concerned, although I have a check list, I've generally found that during the course of a telephone conversation I get all the answers I need. I will, however ask direct questions if necessary.

Google is your friend. Look up his name, address and anything else you can find.

I think it has become an expectation that u are going to be grilled within an inch of your life. However I do feel that is subjective. I would expect any breeder to want to know about you and the life your prospective puppy would have  .your reasons for wanting one of their dogs what you know about the breed and why this breed
Looking back on breeders who I had pups from it was all very low key and over a cup of coffee. Not possible atm  but a very friendly chat over video or even just on the phone . What some would see as a grilling others would just see as a nice discussion .
Only you  can decide what category your chats fit in . do you feel the breeder cares would be a big question for me .
If u search on deposits here you will see ma.y discussions . There are pros and cons but its not at all unusual or a sign of a bad breeder not to tale a deposit. 
There can be different reasons that no deposit is ask for and if anyone has to back out due to unforseen reasons it makes things easier all round

Thanks for this!

Pups have been born, so looking forward to seeing them virtually soon.

On further investigation, there are lots of public facebook photos of him and family with the parents, which looks to me to be a good sign.

Google doesn't turn up very much else.

Reassuring to hear that about deposits as well.

You only mention hip scoring. Parents also should have been elbow scored, and have DNA test results, off the top of my head PRA, possibly others (not my breed).

I wouldn't take a deposit on a pup not yet born either.  I would once a pup has been seen and matched to a new owner but not prior to that so that wouldn't concern me.  As for being grilled it's surprising what a breeder can surmise just from a good chat and intuition.  If your gut feeling about this bredder is good then I wouldn't worry.

I agree. I don't take deposits and I don't ask a lot of questions. I find 20 questions will potentially give you the 20 answers you want. I prefer to engage in conversation and generally find out what I need to know.

Champdogs Puppy Buyer Guide includes: "What Questions should I ask?"

I don’t take deposits either. I have a questionnaire I get people to fill in before they can go on the waiting list. Then when I meet them (or video call depending on the circumstances) I have a general chat with them and may raise any particular questions that have come up from their questionnaire. I tend to find as I think has already been said, that if you ask a direct question they know the answer you want to hear, but if you let them talk you get the truth. It’s not like you should be waterboarded until they are satisfied ‘grilling’ is probably the wrong word. Make sure in the video call you ask him to show you as much as possible of where the dogs live. I would ask about elbow scores too as it seems to be a breed that should have them done.

Very helpful - thanks.

Dam has an elbow EBV listed, but no elbow score listed as such, so I'll ask about that. Parents' elbow EBVs average at 0, so I'm guessing that is OK?

Sire has 0/0 elbows with a negative EBV.

I don’t have a huge understanding of the EBVs I’m afraid so I would like to see the elbow score for the dam ideally. I’m sure someone will be able to explain them though. Are there elbow scores listed for her parents if you click on them. Perfect elbow score for the sire. This is the only score that is recommended to breed on from for elbows I believe.

You want to make sure that BOTH parents have hip and elbow results. The elbow results should be 0 and the hip results should be no higher than 12-13 total, preferably evenly split between the hips (ie not 11 on one hip and 1 on the other!). EBVs, whilst useful additional info, do not replace testing the dog themselves. Scrap this litter if the testing isn't done...

There should be a current eye test on both parents - that means a BVA eye test has been done on both of them within the last year. It should not be out of date or older than that.

They should have DNA tests for CNM, EIC, SD2 and prcd-PRA at least. Clear or Carrier status is acceptable, as long as they are not both Carriers for the same thing. (Or they will produce Affected puppies.)

These health tests are non-negotiable, especially given how much people are being asked to pay for pups now.

I don't take deposits on puppies because I prefer to be free to change my mind at the last minute if I learn something I don't like about a home and I also find that buyers start to act as if they already own the puppy, making all kinds of demands, if they have paid a deposit.

As for vetting, I think you are right that is a sign of someone who wants the very best for their pups. However you have to accept that a lot of old-school gundog breeders are sadly not THAT bothered about where the pups go. As long as you are happy with what's on offer and with the way the pups are being raised, I wouldn't worry about that too much in terms of it affecting what you are buying.

Great post 1234. The sire has hips and elbows done I believe so just the elbow score missing from the dam. My post may not have been clear on that.

Only thing with the BVA eye tests at the moment is people not having been able to get them done due to them being cancelled because of covid.

Nice response and information 1234

>people not having been able to get them done due to them being cancelled because of covid.

True but it hasn't been impossible. It's harder right now with lockdown, but just before December it was very possible and you'd hope that someone planning to breed was thinking ahead and getting health tests done, rather than deciding to breed at the last minute.

> just before December it was very possible and you'd hope that someone planning to breed was thinking ahead and getting health tests done, rather than deciding to breed at the last minute.

I was booked in for Sunday just gone. 2nd time it’s been cancelled. There weren’t any others available that I could get to when I looked. But yes I agree it shouldn’t be a last minute thing to breed.

1234:> True but it hasn't been impossible. It's harder right now with lockdown, but just before December it was very possible and you'd hope that someone planning to breed was thinking ahead and getting health tests done, rather than deciding to breed at the last minute.

I hear what you are saying and agree that it shouldn't be a last minute thing pre suitability to Breed however, the majority and certainly in my circumstances, you are
repeating your annual BVA Eye Tests. (often for the 3rd year) 
When your appts have been cancelled twice ot thrice over this last year, you cannot argue that this is an emergency consultation.
When living often a couple of hundred miles away from
the nearest Examining Vet, the chances of 'popping down to the surgery if offered a cancellation' by another client is impossible.

If I was buying a Labrador puppy I would want sire and dam to be fully health tested. Hip and elbow scored, Eye tested and all the DNA tests they require. Without all that and good results I would be walking away. There are plenty of good breeders out there of Labs so always go with the best you can and not someone who has been half hearted about it, if they have skipped on health testing what are they hiding or what else are they skipping on?

Just to say the KC were giving breeders 6 months grace bevause of Covid, on expired eye tests for ABS breeders where eye test were a requirement for the breed.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts - very helpful indeed.

It transpires that dam has never had elbows done. Dam's dam was 0/0 elbows, but I don't have any info for dam's sire.

Breeder says that when she was young, elbows weren't considered as important, so they didn't have her checked, and now it's difficult because of lockdown...

I now feel reassured about every other aspect regarding this litter, and other litters on offer are at awkward dates or ridiculous prices (£3k!?!?)

Should I walk away? Given the information I have, am I running a big risk of a lame dog in a few years' time?

Elbow scoring in Labs has been done for many many years now so that excuse doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. My father's Lab who is 12, both parents elbow scored and it was common and recommended then.
If her dam was scored then it doesn't make any sense. Sounds like someone is cutting corners to hide something or save money. Have you looked to see if any of her siblings have been scored?

Agree, Labradors are one of the breeds most at risk.

The ebv's are a calculation of theoretical risk, based on history of scoring of ancestors.

If I understand it a 0 ebv is like a 50/50 chance, too much of a risk for me when I have seen a lively natured sweetheart of a Pet bred young Choc Lab bitch I walked with have to have her life restricted due to ED, having her pleasure of Active walks restricted to that of an oldie.

0 is the average for the breed, so I guess it depends on what proportion of labs are affected overall??

Labs have been elbow scored routinely for something like 15 years now. I don't know how old she is but as she's just had a litter probably not 15

>True but it hasn't been impossible. It's harder right now with lockdown, but just before December it was very possible and you'd hope that someone planning to breed was thinking ahead and getting health tests done, rather than deciding to breed at the last minute.

I spent from March to August trying desperately to find someone who was running the low cost MRI scheme for my breed. Finally found somewhere and had to drive over 3 hours there and back to get her done, a week before she came in season!