Hello
This is my first breed we have two dogs around 2 and 3 years old

We are on day 15 after we first spotted blood!

She has been signalling my male to mate swishing her tail out the way and showing her behind
She lets him mount for 30 seconds to a minute and then she moves off and bites him of lies down

Should we wait or any advice

Ps - both dogs are health checked and hip scored and perfectly healthy
They are house mates of Around a month
They are comfortable woth each other and again she has let him mount 10+ times but not for longer than 30 seconds to a minute and the tie has not been completed at all
Thanks in advance

This is common with maiden bitches especially; they're keen on the idea but get nervous when the moment arrives! Someone will need to hold the bitch's head steady throughout, and possibly someone else stop her turning her back end away from the dog so that he can mount and mate her. He might need assistance to turn and then the pair will both need holding steady till the tie breaks.

If both are maiden, you'd benefit from finding an experienced friend/mentor to help.   If she's ready and he's keen, she may need holding with you talking gently with her while he gets on with the job.   Far better would be to put a maiden bitch to an experienced stud dog!   How about getting in touch with whoever bred your bitch, for her advice.

I know this wasn't your question and note she has had health checks and been hip scored .while this is great .you don't mention any other tests

Have u done the other health tests on both dam and sire necessary before breeding ?
If not it would be a good idea to not breed this time but get the tests done first and put off breeding until u have those .
Apologies if you have already done all.this and the results were as u needed

Yes I am aware of all the health checks needed and they have been completed
Again I do not need this info looking for info on the breeding and having them mate
Thanks
I’ve tried holding the female and she stand and takes it
But now the male gets off after a minute or so

You likely need someone to hold the male as well as they are both first timers.

Furriefriends is talking about dna testing for genetic disorders not a vet health check. If it is the latter that you are talking about then you need to find out what dna testing needs to be done for your breed and get them done with satisfactory results before breeding.

Yes I have had specialised tests done to check for any genetic issues I’ve spent 3k + on having a huge ammount of tests done from hipscoring
To the vet
To dna tests to make sure there isn’t anything hereditary

Thanks but I’ve already done this

That’s great. Do you have anyone to hold the male whilst you hold the female?

Yes
Male is slightly skittish so I’ve been holding the female he does the deed for a minute and then jumps off
I’ll try again in a few hours with someone holding the male

Good luck.

That's brilliant central shepherd. Hope it all goes well

If you can, line up the bitch's vulva for his penis. Don't touch his penis, but you can move her to meet it. You might need 2 people - one to hold the bitch's head who stops her snapping or putting him off - and one to line up the vulva and see what's going on down the other end and to stop her rear moving away.

How long has the bitch been flagging?

It could be she isn't quite ready if they aren't tying.

Are you sure he is actually entering the bitch when he is mounted for a minute?

If he is just hopping on and off but not getting in close enough he could be just testing her receptiveness.

Though with the bitch getting fed up, it could be he is lacking the confidence to go all the way.

If he penetrates he will start thrusting in ernest, I have always described it as 'ladder climbing'.

Of course by the time he gets the hang of things, she may go over.

Is his sire available and local, or another health tested experienced male locally.

Many young males are put off if you try and get too hands on, so an experienced slapper of a bitch is best for his first time.

> so an experienced slapper of a bitch is best for his first time.

Oh my god this made laugh out loud

If you fan out your hand from underneath in her groin either side of her vulva, you can make sure it's in the right spot when he tries, and you will also feel if he has made it.

> <br />Many young males are put off if you try and get too hands on, so an experienced slapper of a bitch is best for his first time

Brainless - OMG - you've just advised outloud what we have all been thinking! Hilarious! You always say it how it is with just FACT but this has taken the biscuit.
Please keep this sort of truthful advice coming -

> If you fan out your hand from underneath in her groin either side of her vulva, you can make sure it's in the right spot when he tries, and you will also feel if he has made it

Brainless:  The Book Fifty Shades of Grey is now on my mind.  Seriously though - another nugget of practical advice - I would never have thought to get that involved
but I will now - thank you

My first champion bitch was not easy to mate.

She was rather confused, and tended to want to play the boys part.

When the male mounted she would start air humping!!

Needless to say this made things very difficult for the males.

I spent 4 days on my knees trying to get her mated and that method got me two matings and a litter.

  You people should try mating Bassets - happily one of mine would actually help himself and got totally put off if I tried to 'help'.............. Certainly he was a one off.

With my breed most males are not happy with much hands on, he does his job, you normally just calm the bitch and ensure she doesn't turn turtle though most couples only need discreet supervision/handling.

The Granddaughter of the bitch mentioned was happy with the mating, but as the tie progressed would lift all four feet off the ground and try to roll.

First time I litterally had her suspended in my arms. Subsequently we learnt to hold her back feet on the ground!!

As long as you've got a determined boy who keeps trying and a bitch who isn't TOTALLY against the idea, you should get there.

My main disaster was trying to use a 5yo unproven dog. He had no idea what to do. My dog (proven) was sticking her rear in his face and flagging and the most he would do was to lick her. There was zero attempt at any mounting behaviour at all. We tried throughout. We couldn't get to another stud on that season but we did on her next one and had a litter.

> trying to use a 5yo unproven dog. He had no idea what to do.

This is a frequent issue in my breed. Small numbers.

Not only do males have few opportunities, if ever, to mate a bitch, even champions, but often a male may not be suitable until current bitches have daughters less closely related to them, so by then they sre 5+.

Also male owners may not be asked to use their dog as it hasn't been health tested or breeders waiting until he's proven by someone else.

A breeder has to be really keen, ask owner to health test, and then take a chance.

These days few breeders keep both sexes, and if they do chances are they can't use the males themselves.

The bitch I was hoping for a pup from tried a maiden boy, no luck first time, a mating day 20 second time, no pups assume he was late.

He sired a singleton pup ( there were 2, but one died) to a proven bitch in between, so probably came a bit late to the party.

I have tried using maiden males several times, but only succeeded twice, once with a young one. Youthful exuberance prevailed.

Mostly the ones that failed half went on to sire litters eventually, the rest weren't asked again.

Thing is a breeder wants a litter, so few want to be the ones to try first.

I totally agree. For us, the male was very near us (geographically) so there wasn't a lot invested in terms of travel and accommodation. When we bred to another male on the next season, it was a lot of travel.

Avidog (I'm a huge fan) recommend males are used quite young if possible for the first time, so around 2yo. They will also take semen and store it around this age for the first time, but they recommend not repeatedly and frequently taking semen manually or AI-ing, because the dog will come to think this is what it's all about - he in future then won't mount or be able to mate naturally and will expect someone to do all the work for him(!). I guess at least you get some semen that way!

With our failed attempt, I tried an AI. Although he got an erection and ejaculated, he very weirdly withheld the semen fraction and only ejaculated the very clear first and third fractions with no semen. I checked it under a microscope just in case and there was nothing there. So we couldn't even AI. I had mixed feelings about breeding from a dog that can't breed naturally anyway, but that decided things for us!

PS Just to add, often we hear from pet owners whose adolescent and young adult males just can't stop humping things. It gives you a new appreciation for the necessity of this behaviour for the procreation of the species and how there is a definite need and role for it, when you are standing there with a beautiful male dog that just won't mount... (by the way, said male dog did the usual copious mounting during adolescence and wasn't told off for it, the behaviour just faded as he got older).

IMO that humpiness is there genetically at this age, so that young males get the hang of what continuing the species is all about!

Agree, and reproductive behaviour in both sexes does seem to be quite heritable, so the ability of males to perform, and just as importantly to be good at detecting optimum timing, needs cherishing.

The same with bitches acceptance and encouragement of the process.

Similarily natural/good mothering ability.

Is it worth having a vet examine her vulva? Possible she has an up and over type vag?

Any luck?

mcat:> Is it worth having a vet examine her vulva? Possible she has an up and over type vag?

Hoping not to appear stupid, what on earth is an 'up and over' vag? and is it a common condition or are certain Breeds more likely so have this problem?
(never heard of this before)

Some bitches have a vulva and vagina at a steeper angle, which can be more diffivult for a dog, especially if the bitchnis not fully relaxed and co-operstive by altering her stance to make things easier.

Not sure I’m spelling this right but I’d advise vet check it could be a
stricture

> They are house mates of Around a month

This could actually be part of the issue.