Hi all,

I am new to this forum and am desperate to get some help.
Our puppy is in hospital now after he collapsed this morning.

It's a long story and after just 5 days of having him with us, I can't believe we are praying that he will ever make it back to us again.

We got him from a private seller who claimed that he is 11 weeks old, fully vaccinated and microchipped (gave us respective paperwork). Once home, he was playful and agile, but we noticed a little cough and gagging every now and then, so I insisted on seeing a vet and have his health assessed. I suspected that he might have early signs of kennel cough and wanted him treated as early as possible. He also had a little bit of diarrhoea, which we wanted to get on top of.
The vet assessed him and said that he was overall in good health. She also ruled out kennel cough because he didn't have a fever.  She suggested that we keep him inside for the cough to clear. However, she said that the papers were completely fake, that he wasn't microchipped and presumably also not vaccinated (I will skip this full story for now as I am more concerned about having his health improved). Based on that, she said she also didn't believe that he was 11 weeks old, but rather 8 weeks only.
Vet prescribed Pro-Kolin paste to handle the diarrhoea, alongside gastrointestinal puppy food, and Panacur paste to deworm. Agreed to come back in a week's time to start vaccinations (to be on the safe side) and have him chipped.
We followed dosage etc. exactly as advised and commenced Pro-Kolin treatment the same day, which he seemed to cope with very well. He continued to eat well and was agile and playful. His diarrhoea improved well, so we were quite pleased with him improving.
Started treatment with Panacur yesterday (he had two doses of 2 ml each), and Lupi was fine for most of the day. However, we noticed last night that he hadn't really eaten much and was very quiet (we thought he was just tired). We also noticed that the diarrhoea was a little worse again.
Checked on him this morning, and he continued to be extremely quiet, so we tried to feed him, but without success. In fact, he seemed so weak that he couldn't sit up anymore, so we rushed him to the nearest vet, who checked breathing, heart rate and temperature (all were fine) but said he was too pale. Vet suggested to rush him to the nearest hospital, and Lupi collapsed on the way, being barely responsive when we handed him over to the doctors.
They are working on him right now and have him on the drip, and we are praying that they will be able to save him.
I have researched numerous posts and topics in context of Panacur, but also kennel cough. I am just so desperate to get some information that might help saving his life, and we suspect that his condition is linked to the treatment, given that he deteriorated from the day we started treatment.

We have been tearing our hair out over what might have happened - we checked everything we could think of at home to ensure that he hasn't eaten anything that he shouldn't and/or whether this is a result of untreated kennel cough (despite the vet ruling it out).

Has anyone had similar experiences with Panacur and/or suspected kennel cough, maybe specifically with collies?

Thanks so much!

My heart goes out to you.  At least he is in good hands now.

Lupi
Goodness me.  I am so sorry to hear this has happended and shocked to find your little one has been the offspring of a 'bogus' breeder who obviously
lied about what your Puppy has received re worming. chipping & jabbing!

He is getting the best of care now and I have a feeling his bloods will be taken and tested if he hasn't received any jabs. 
(do you know if the area you bought him from has had any recent Parvo outbreaks?)  NOT saying this to suggest parvo is causing his collapse
just that it is likely to be something they will check from his blood tests.

Panacur is very effective wormer.
Dosage is usually 1ml per kilo of weight over a 3 day period. The Border Collie Breed can have reactions to certain worming treatments though.

24hrs of the correct treatment can make a huge improvement to a poorly puppy's health and I wish you well ongoing.  Please let us know X

I hate to be the one to say this but are they also checking its not parvo ?
I would except they are and hopefully he will recover well

Male sure the vets are aware he has had panucure. Some collies can be sensitive to any product containing ivermectin or its derivatives
Ask them to check the current ingredients of the panucure he has been given

Panacur is safe for collies. Its milbemax that is an Invermectin derivative.

Invermectin link drugs:-

Ivermectin
Selamectin
Milbemycin
Moxidectin
Loperamide
Acepromazine
Butorphanol
Vincristine
Vinblastine
Doxorubicin
Paclitaxel
Apomorphine

Thanks Ann I wasn't 100 % sure. One link i found said it contained febenazole which is a derivatives I gather.at least its not that then

Very sorry and hope your pup improves

Have they tested him for parvo? When my girl had it the first 3 days of going back and forth to the vets they thought it was a stomach bug until she was tested after being admitted.

While panacure is ment to be safe for collies and the datasheet as gastrointestinal issues as a rare problem with it, I have heard of a couple breeders having issues with puppies when they have used it although I know some who use it fine.

But rest assured it's not your fault any of it and he is now in the best place to give him a fighting chance. I hope he makes a quick recovery.

Thank you, Hoggie.

We had an update from the hospital just now: Initial testing of has indicated that Parvo is ruled out (we are so relieved), and the doctor said that he has become a lot more responsive, wagging his tail and showing an interest in his environment, after upping glucose and hydration levels. They also ruled out (again) kennel cough, but said he had a mild pneumonia.
They are doing further tests to determine the cause of his diarrhoea and dehydration as they don't think it is linked to his Panacur treatment (again, we are just so relieved) and will start a course of antibiotics in the meantime.
We won't have him back until at least Monday (we don't care how long they keep him, as long as he is healthy) to ensure he continues recovery and is healthy. They also said that they will continue Panacur treatment as soon as he is strong enough.

Thank you so much for your kind words. We have been heartbroken and desperate to see this little fella in such a poor state. We just want him to be good and healthy. We were expecting the worst - you have no idea how much it helps to have your response.

THANK YOU!

XX

Regardless of the wormer used being ok for BCs or not, I'm afraid I'd not have wormed a sick dog.  Period.   And I'd be looking at Parvo (Oh, I see this has been ruled out).

Still he's in the right place now, and hopefully will be strong enough to pull through.  Fingers x'd for him, and for you.

Thank you, Ikj.

Lupi is still in hospital (and will remain in the hospital for a few more days), but apparently his condition has improved and parvo virus is ruled out.
Thanks so much for your response. We are still worried sick as we still don't know the cause of his condition, but it is comforting to know that people are thinking of him and that he is in good hands.

xx

It's not on the Laboklin list

Hi Furriefriends,

We had an update from the hospital just now, and they are ruling out Parvo (we are soooooooo relieved). The doctor said that he has become a lot more responsive, wagging his tail and showing an interest in his environment, after upping glucose and hydration levels. They also ruled out (again) kennel cough, but said he had a mild pneumonia.
They are doing further tests to determine the cause of his diarrhoea and dehydration. We hope that they will be able to determine the cause of his collapse today and stabilize him.
We are still in shock and so worried about Lupi.

Thank you so much for your kind words.

XX

Thanks, Furriefriends.

We flagged it again to the doctor, but she says she has no concerns that the treatment caused his condition.

That's great. Hoping he is moving forward now poor little mite .

You do get some strange things on Google at times which was why I was cautious and suggest vet checked the ingredients incase something had changed

Thank you for your response, Ann.

I flagged this to the doctor, and she is certain that Panacur should not have caused this condition.
I am so grateful for any suggestion for what may have caused this, so thank you very much for responding to me. It's so appreciated.

XX

Thank you, JoStockbridge.

The hospital just called and said that parvo testing came back negative (huge relief) and that Lupi has recovered somewhat after being put on the drip.
They also think that Panacure didn't cause his condition but are yet clueless as to what did.
We are still extremely shaken and worried.

Thank you very much for your response. It helps so much! xx

Just incase it's suggested that u should  start his vaccines again make sure he is entirely well .
Given he has had such a difficult start giving him a good few weeks to recover would be safest. I know he won't be able to go out unless carried but a small price to pay after this all this shock. 
U could of course ask the breeder for the vets details who supposedly did the vaccines if u want any contact with them at all after this horrible experience.that way u could find out exactly what he has had or not

As has been said panacur is usually safe for border collies however as has also been said I wouldn't be worming just yet until I was very sure he was over his diarrhoea. Hope Lupi continues to recover well.

Lupi:  Hey no worries and fantastic news!!! I'm sure he will progress quickly now with antibiotics and the fuss from the Vet Nurses (found them to be so made up when a puppy is under their care).  It will be a 'what to treat first' situation with the Vet as the diarrhoea could be down to dirty water/food bowls (gastroenteritis in humans) which does need antibiotic treatment.  Antibiotics can cause diarrhoea which then needs a product such as Promax paste administered to settle his tummy and then the worming programme needs to be resumed but only
when his stools are back to normal and he is seen as 'fighting fit' by his Vet.  Jabs are further down the line only when he is strong enough and again would love to get an update when you have time...  Your wee man is getting there!  Good Luck!

Sometimes when puppies have a massive worm burden (because the bitch wasn't wormed before pregnancy and the pups weren't wormed before rehoming) then any worming treatment (which of course is essential) can cause the killed worms to become toxic before they're passed. It's not a problem with the worming product, it's a problem with the rearing of the pup. This would be my suspicion as to the cause of the collapse.

Jeangenie:> Sometimes when puppies have a massive worm burden (because the bitch wasn't wormed before pregnancy and the pups weren't wormed before rehoming)

So true, frightening the consequences of ignoring such a basic requirement.  My pregnant girls have always been wormed every 3 months pre mating and daily from day 30 of their pregnancy
until whelping with puppies born wormed at 2,5 & 8 weeks and advice to new owners at 11/12 weeks.

> day 30 of their pregnancy

Is this what your vet advises Hoggie? Interesting if so as mine advises from day 42 so wonder why the difference.

masajackrussell: > <br />Is this what your vet advises Hoggie? Interesting if so as mine advises from day 42 so wonder why the difference

No it is not what my Vet advises.  It's what I do. Puppies born are of healthy weight & superb coat condition from birth.

> Puppies born are of healthy weight & superb coat condition from birth.

Never said they weren't, just find the differing opinions of vets interesting and if it was a vet recommendation I was going to ask what their reasoning was for the earlier timescale.

masajackrussell:> Never said they weren't

I know you didn't.  I answered your question 'was that what your Vet advised'? and I replied accordingly. No. My reasoning for doing so is >> Puppies born are of healthy weight & superb coat condition from birth.

> My reasoning for doing so is >> Puppies born are of healthy weight & superb coat condition from birth.

Ok. So did you used to do it later and have found an improvement? Or have you always done it at this point? Just wondering if there is an obvious difference that you have found in doing it two different ways or not?

masajackrussell: > Just wondering if there is an obvious difference that you have found in doing it two different ways or not?

Ten years ago I didn't worm my pregnant girls at all during pregnancy: Puppies were healthy but I found I had to keep a close eye on weight gain unaware that a worming programme was
so important.

Between then and five years ago I had learned from my local breeder friends the importance of worming your pregnant girl and putting a worming programme in place - very healthy puppies
however speaking with my fellow breeders re concerns about bloated tummies in the litter as early as three weeks of age, I was advised to start worming my pregnant girls at day 40.

Over the last three years I have spoken with many members of my local breed club and the advice to worm as early as day 30 has been promoted. Do I see a difference, YES.  Puppies
have no signs of bloating and certainly have thicker coats even within the Labrador Breed.

My suspicion would be an extremely high worm load or hearworm load.

When given the.wormer the large number of dying worms released excessive toxins.

My reasoning for this was my friends experience with a rescue litter of 6 week old GSD pups who were so full of worms, that 2 of them by second dose wete very poorly, with anaemia.

Worming was stopped until 2 weeks later, when all responded well.

> Dosage is usually 1ml per kilo of weight over a 3 day period.

Puppy dosage is 0.5ml per kg of bodyweight for puppies.

> any worming treatment (which of course is essential) can cause the killed worms to become toxic

Snap

Brainless:> Puppy dosage is 0.5ml per kg of bodyweight for puppies.

Sorry Brainless: I have just opened one of my Panacur 10% oral suspension for Small Animal boxes and the dosage for Puppies states 0.5ml per kg of bodyweight.
You are right, I am wrong according to guidelines.  I rightly or wrongly administer 1 ml per kg over a 3 day period.  Touch wood - never had an adverse reaction
or a problem with wormy puppies but not sure if I would reduce the dosage for fear of going backwards from the positives I have found with Puppy health benefits.

As they are dosed over 3 days they are in effect getting a dose half as much again as adults, who get 1ml perkg in one go.

Interestingly the dosage for large animals us much less per kg, so it is a very powerful medication.

Brainless:  > As they are dosed over 3 days they are in effect getting a dose half as much again as adults, who get 1ml perkg in one go

Yes indeed.  Just done my calculations too. Maybe it is the time frame between adult animals dosage compared to that of a Puppy.  I can
only speak of my findings with my large/medium Breed Litters.

> <br />Interestingly the dosage for large animals us much less per kg, so it is a very powerful medication

My pony's 10% suspension is a different no of mls per kilo so yes - very true.

>My pregnant girls have always been wormed every 3 months pre mating and daily from day 30 of their pregnancy

The Panacur datasheet states from day 40.

I was also thinking that it could be due to a large worm burden all getting killed off at once.

I'm not sure why a breeder would like to say that an 8wk old puppy was 11wks. It is perfectly legal to sell an 8wk old puppy and it's going to be easier to sell a pup at 8wks than 11wks (more desirable). Just not sure what there would be to gain from lying in the way the vet suggests.... Of course if the pup were under 8wks and illegal, that would be a reason.

I also wondered what it was about the papers that made her say they were false ? Was she talking about the vaccination card and not pedigree papers ?
After he has recovered I would like to at least find out if possible if the vaccinations were done rather than risk starting again. As to if he is kc registered that can  be check too of its is of any consequence for future activities
Agree under 8 weeks would be a whole different issue

I know we all have our own ideas, but fwiw, I wormed my girls pre-mating but never during a pregnancy.   They were wormed again 2 weeks after birth, when the puppies were first wormed.   Why would anybody worm on a daily basis in any case, pregnant or not?   Worming means putting chemicals into them.

Mamabas: Worming during pregnancy is common practice and helps with every bit of nutrition from Mum being of benefit to the Puppies formation (not the horrible worms).  Prevention rather than cure and it's the chemicals that keep the worms at bay and as mentioned on previous posts, less chance of dead worms building up and creating deadly toxins.

Not read every post here but with the possibility that there is a reaction from the wormer, why wouldn't a lab test for worms be more appropriate.  Just read another post about a small breed being very poorly following a panacur worming the day before.  I don't use wormers any way but I wouldn't be using another chemical wormer in a hurry in this situation.

> why wouldn't a lab test for worms be more appropriate

TOTALLY agree.    I only worm if I feel it's needed, or I see worms or of course, it's confirmed by a fecal test.   And you need to know what type of worm needs treating (pregnant apart).

And it's not 'common practice' to worm during a pregnancy where I come from

Mamabas:> And it's not 'common practice' to worm during a pregnancy where I come from

Panacur Data Sheet offer advice & dosage for pregnant bitches so there must be requirement for it in other areas and
of course, everyone to their own. We all do what we think best.  You can wait to see worms and/or have a fecal test certainly as long as Nursing Mum doesn't
immediately rid the whelping box of fecal matter.  I just prefer to prevent rather than cure and if the unborn Puppies are already receiving preventative medication through
Mum then I feel I am doing the right thing.

As I understand it mambas does worm but not during pregnancy.beforr mating and then once puppies are born. She also  worms the puppies  I have known of a number of people who do the same .
Please correct me if I am wrong mambas .

I should add that the puppies continue to have a worming programme after birth at 2/5/8 weeks not just whilst Mum is carrying them.

Back to the original problem. To the op how is you puppy doing today?

I have wormed 8 generations of bitches in whelp.

I prefer to worm at 3 weeks once pups started on solids.

With pups born 98% worm free I feel I can delay until this time, and do next worming at 7, and then 11 weeks/advise owners worm at 11 weeks and then monthly.

With Panacur it is effective against earlier larval stages, so 4 weekly worming is effective.

Drontal puppy and sime others has to be done fortnightly as it is not effective on earlier stages.

Even if you're not going to worm pregnant bitches I think we can all agree they should be wormed before breeding and pups should be wormed at least twice with the breeder. Unfortunately some not very reputable breeders might not do any of that...

>After he has recovered I would like to at least find out if possible if the vaccinations were done rather than risk starting again.

I totally agree. I'd wait till 20wks and then do a titre test to see if he's been previously vaccinated. If not, you can just give one DHP vaccination. You don't want to burden the immune system after all he's been through...

I know we all have our own ideas, but fwiw, I wormed my girls pre-mating but never during a pregnancy.   They were wormed again 2 weeks after birth, when the puppies were first wormed.

That's what I do as well. I don't like the idea of worming a pregnant bitch.

Goldmali:> I don't like the idea of worming a pregnant bitch

Maybe have a look at the Springlodge Veterinary Group - they have 6 or 7 practices - Bristol and surrounding areas.
I find Puppies being born 98% clear of worms very reassuring but I understand it is not a practice for everyone too.

or  Brainless may be happy to advise further reasoning behind it.