Hi good evening

Would anyone be able to confirm if you are purchasing a puppy, the breeder can state they cannot be neutered or spayed?

I would be grateful for your comments please as to whether this can be enforced

Many thanks

Barbs5: > <br />Would anyone be able to confirm if you are purchasing a puppy, the breeder can state they cannot be neutered or spayed?

Hi,  the Breeder should be encouraging you to neuter or spay unless breeding is a joint agreement between you with health testing compulsary
before commitment to a litter.

In short answer, the Breeder cannot enforce this unless you sign a contract agreeing to it.......Very strange?

Has the  breeder given reasons for this?
It would be very hard if impossible to enforce once u have purchased the puppy   how on earth would they know ? There could also be medical reasons for neutering
However not everyone does wish to neuter their dogs and research should be done into the pros and cons and when is considered the best age should u decide to neuter.

As a breeder I would strongly discourage neutering until full skeletal maturity (18 - 24 months) for Physical and Mental Health reasons.

Additionally in breeds who have a very high incidence of bitch spay incontinence (Rotts and Dobes come to mind), I would suggest they balance that risk and the welfare implications, against the risk of Pyometra as bitches age.

In males there is little good reason on health grounds to neuter at all.

I would not choose to sell to someone who would be against following my advise.in this regard.

I'd be more concerned about a breeder insisting on neutering.

With basic knowledge it is easy to ensure a bitch is kept away from male dogs an properly supervised during seasons, and male dogs are not allowed to roam.

Difficulties are only likely if entire animals live in the same household.

Thank you so much for your reply

The reason I asked is that I emailed a breeder for a puppy and had that response (together with a form to complete), but started off by saying “if I was going to neuter or spay the pup, then don’t send the form back as I wouldn’t be accepted as it was cruel??

I did ask my daughter about this as she has two kennel club registered dogs, and she thought it awful and has same thoughts as yourself

Needless to say I won’t be going with that breeder asvit seems as though they may be breeding their bitches constantly.

Thanks again though much appreciated

Thank you for your reply.  I suppose we all have our own opinions as to what is right/wrong.

Thank you for your reply.  I personally do not agree with a bitch being used to constantly have puppies if that was the case.  Maybe some breeders don’t necessarily do that but the reply I had was stating that and I could not do either and that I was cruel if that’s what my intentions were

Appreciate your reply though

Some people do feel that neutering, apart from a health reason is a needless mutilation, just like docking, and is done more for social convenience than welfare reasons.

It's not a common virw among breeders, but a large proportion of breeders of medium and large breeds especially are against neutering before maturity.

Neutering is not a black and white issue, as it has positive and negative effects.

Any woman who has gone through the menopause, can confirm it has more effects than stopping reproduction, and those who have had premature menopause suffer more problems.

Some breeds of dogs coats become very difficult to manage after neutering, which has welfare implications.

I am confused, what does not neutering have to do with how often a bitch or dog is bred from?

Not neutering does not mean a bitch or dog ever need to be bred from, many never are, yet remain intact.

The law allows commercial breeders to breed a maximum of 6 litters legally.

The Kennel Club allow a maximum of 4 litters.

Most breeders who also show would be hard pushed to breed more than 2 or 3 litters in the age time scale of 2 - 7 years, as most would leave more than a year between litters.

It takes a up to a year out of their show career each time, for pregnancy and to regain coats and fitness.

Working bitches would also have to fit motherhood around the shooting, lambing etc seasons.

Whilst my parents are not breeders, my grandparents were of a giant breed and even going back many years, they were already advising puppy owners not to neuter their dogs unless there was a good reason to. My parents currently have three entire bitches and all of my dogs will be kept the same (apart from a rescue Yorkie who was already neutered very early by his previous owner). They will only be done when older if at all, when it might be a consideration to reduce the risk of cancer/pyo. None have had litters I’ll add.

One of my parents’ dogs came from a holistic breeder who also didn’t vaccinate at all, this was a little extreme in their view although we don’t renew them all each year but titre when required, I would be very encouraged by a breeder who was clear about the negatives of not neutering too early. Perhaps you might return your form and ask for clarity on their views and reasoning. Is this a vulnerable breed with a very low population, in which case they might want to keep options open for the future? Despite the fact I have an import who I hope will be bred from in the future, every single time I see my vet they ask me when I’m booking her in (she’s currently 8 months...).

> Would anyone be able to confirm if you are purchasing a puppy, the breeder can state they cannot be neutered or spayed?

Well of course any breeder can stipulate whatever they want when selling their puppies.   However, to require a form to be signed agreeing NOT to spay/castrate is, to my mind, very odd.   And how would that be 'policed' - I don't agree to rules that cannot be policed.   Apart from the fact that once bought, the puppy no longer belongs to the breeder and who knows what medical need there might be to have an animal neutered, down the road.   Yes to agreeing to spay/castrate would be more usual (even if I'd not agree to either).

I'd want to ask this breeder why he/she requires a form stating that to be signed.    I can however, understand a breeder recommending a puppy isn't neutered before the growth plates have closed.

With male dogs, there is no need to neuter unless there is a clear physical or behavioural reason to do so. (Bearing in mind this is much less frequently than most vets seem to imply.) 

With female dogs, due to pyometra, there is more of a reason to neuter - but it shouldn't be done too early and it's preferable to wait until the bitch is at least a few years old if not older.

Keeping a dog intact and breeding from the dog are two completely different things. The last female I neutered was 6yo when I neutered her and she had never been bred from. The reason to keep them intact is due to physical and behavioural health.

Finally, a breeder can make all kinds of demands and requests but it is very difficult to uphold the vast majority of them, even if you sign a contract to agree. This is because of property law which takes precedence: You will own the dog and can make those decisions legally, regardless of the contract. But even practically, how would the breeder ever know if you had neutered the dog? I guess if it were a male, and the breeder saw the dog in person, they would notice that the testicles were missing. A female dog there's no way they'd ever know, and it's females you are more likely to want to neuter anyway.

>Would anyone be able to confirm if you are purchasing a puppy, the breeder can state they cannot be neutered or spayed?

No they can't; once the puppy has been paid for the new owner has total control over what can or can't be done.

In fact any breeder who insists that a puppy must be neutered (spayed or castrated, according to gender!) should be avoided, as what they're implying is that you aren't a responsible person who can manage an entire animal without allowing it to produce puppies in the future. And no puppy should be neutered before physical maturity; from a year old for small breeds and between 18 months and 2 years for larger breeds.

Hello to everyone who replied to my question yesterday I really appreciate the time taken. 

I just thought I would copy just the part of the message referring to neutering/spaying - I obviously haven’t included any info as to the breeder etc - but I found it quite rude ...  maybe could have been said a little more politely :

“ If your intention is to neuter a dog please do not reply. My contract of
sale stipulates that unless under MEDICAL ADVICE I do not permit neuter or
sterilisation. It is cruel and lazy pet ownership.“

I hope you understand why I asked the question as I thought it might be the general consensus, even when I specifically asked this to Champ Dogs they suggested the Forum, so again many thanks

Happy New Year to you all

Barb

Is this never neuter or not before a certain age? Sometimes they need to be done for health, as in cancer, pyo etc

I think with so many people jumping on the bandwagon some breeders may put in their contracts the pups when they reach maturity have to be neutered and proof sent through when this has been done.
You can do all the vetting in the world but some people change their minds about breeding when it comes of age.

>“ If your intention is to neuter a dog please do not reply. My contract of

sale stipulates that unless under MEDICAL ADVICE I do not permit neuter or
sterilisation. It is cruel and lazy pet ownership.“

I personally completely agree with the sentiment behind that statement. 'Medical advice' would cover any physical or behavioural reasons for neutering. I can't really imagine any other reason someone should neuter. The breeder appears to be saying they are against the routine and casual neutering of every dog, which I completely agree with.

They may have said it very abruptly and perhaps rudely but frankly you choose a breeder on more than their use of the English language in writing.

And still, whatever their contract of sale says, they can't enforce that. They can try to scare off people who intend to neuter with this kind of statement, but there's nothing they can actually do if someone does neuter their dog after signing it.

Although it is unusual and could not be policed i do not find it rude.it certainly sets out the breeders requirements to own one of their puppies a right they have regardless of if others agree.
I think if other things ticked the right boxes with me I might engage in a careful discussion with the breeder  if only to learn someone's views
know there are some who consider unless medical reason it is cruel   an uncommon view but there are some .
I dint belive its cruel but personnaly will only neuter a mature dog or bitch as I did at 6 with brooke.  I wonder if prevention of pyo would be considered medical by the breeder?I wonder what their feelings on vaccines and feeding are ? Its possible this person is a natural breeder.  My term not wrong but alternative.

I agree with your comments 1234

Rather odd but I had this with my Burmese cat  Breeder wouldn't allow her to be transferred into my name until I proved she had been spayed.

I'd give the breeder a miss. Suspect probably anti vax too and will likely be harassing you for years over how you should keep your own dog.  They want that much control should keep the puppy themselves.

Up till the sale the puppy is the legal property of the breeder. The breeder is allowed to choose whoever they like to have one of their puppies or not. After the sale then the puppy is legally your property and I doubt this clause would stand up if they took it to court. It's not enough to prove an agreement was broken, they have to prove that they suffered damages as a result.

So let's say you bought a puppy on the terms that the breeder was entitled to use the pup as a stud and you neutered him before this then could claim for losses, ie the fees they've had to pay for a different stud. I hope this makes sense.

It's always best to choose a breeder who's ethics matches your own.

> So let's say you bought a puppy on the terms that the breeder was entitled to use the pup as a stud and you neutered him before this then could claim for losses, ie the fees they've had to pay for a different stud. I hope this makes sense.

I had a stud agreement on one puppy I sold to a fellow breeder.   I wanted to use him, just the once, on one of my bitches.  I'd kept his brother but felt the one I sold would be better than him for my bitch.    Unfortunately, and classic of 'it's not worth the paper it's written on', she sold him and his sister I'd also sold to her, to a breeder living in Europe.  So much for being able to get to him for the stud I was contracted to have.  How I regretted not putting full endorsements on either - but I TRUSTED this woman.      In the end I mated her to the brother I'd kept.   That mating only produced a singleton bitch puppy and she wasn't up to anything like what I wanted, even if we kept her to the end of her days.  She was spayed after coming into season every 5 months ..... I couldn't be doing with that.

Hi and many thanks again for all your replies.  

In short, I am retiring at the end of March and would love to have a puppy and the reason I’ve not had one before now is that I’ve worked now for 54, and would never leave the dog for hours on end as I feel it’s just so unfair and cruel to the animal.

We look after my daughter and partner’s two dogs/house sit for their holidays 2/3 weeks,  weekends and maybe even only for the day and have gained a lot of experience with them...  so I’m not a novice...  but obviously don’t have anywhere near your experience in dogs but wasn’t looking to breed, but would always go with advice from my vet ... 

Happy new year to you all

Barb

>wasn’t looking to breed, but would always go with advice from my vet ... 

Not sure I really get this part.

I haven't bred from 95% of dogs I've owned. They have all been 4+years old when spayed. Yet again, not neutering and breeding are two completely different subjects. I'm sure you can appreciate that many women have ovaries and uterus and yet no children. Not sure why this is so complex for people to grasp. It's as if they believe the only function of reproductive organs is reproduction.

I wouldn't trust any vet on this subject because it's not a subject vets agree on and the vast majority of them don't even look into the research on the subject.

What I was trying to explain was I wasn’t looking for a pup to breed and in my initial question I asked if the email received was what all breeders adhered to.  That’s all a simple question....

In short your answer is no its not usually. Please don't be upset with any of the replies as discussions here  often goes round and about. 
There is quite a lot of good information here that may be useful when u do get your pup. Eg if u do want to neuter researching pros and cons and if and when will be really good. Vets arnt always the best for this discussion as they see too many irresponsible owners who dont stop their dogs mating or just think it's a good way to make.money. they then pick up the pieces . Their go to is often neuter ASAP not always but often

Barbs5:> in my initial question I asked if the email received was what all breeders adhered to.  That’s all a simple question....

Yip, things tend to go round in circles and way off course when looking for advice from within a Forum.
Bottom Line:  NO not all Breeders adhere to this.

The Breeder may ask you to complete this form you've received and ask you to sign an agreement agreeing to such
(the form and agreement holds no legal commitment from you so totally irrelevant)

Should a dog be neutered/spayed?
(certainly not before 12 months for small breeds and 24 months for large breeds unless medical reasons dictate this intervention)
Even though I advise my new owners that this should be done at the appropriate time if they have no intention of Breeding.

Vets Advice
Vets always advise you to have your Puppy neutered/spayed on the very first visit.  This is ill advised as no Puppy should undergo
this op until they are:  please see above (age or medical condition).

My advice would be, if the Puppy is great in every other way ie Health tested, from good blood lines and you are comfortable
with how the puppy has been raised - go for it. Complete the form, sign the contract and then when you have paid for the
little one, make your own decisions.

Hope this helps with your decision.
.

Thank you so much very kind of you to reply.  Just thought email from breeder was very rude and implied all were the same
I won’t be replying to the breeder!!

Thanks again

Thank you so much very kind of you to reply.  Just thought email from breeder was very rude and implied all were the same
I won’t be replying to the breeder!!

Thanks again

Just a quick defence of my vet, the only time she’s talked to me about castrating River was basically to advise me not to, as he has fear issues and decreasing his testosterone levels almost certainly won’t help.

Not all vets immediately suggest neutering.

My vets have never pushed neutering on my dogs either silver leaf. It certainly isn’t something they ‘always’ do.

masajackrussell:> It certainly isn’t something they ‘always’ do.

Agree, Vets don't PUSH - they SUGGEST. (PUSH is a word I haven't used during posting anyway)
And no, they don't have this dicussion with me every time I take my Puppies to be checked, chipped & jabbed and they probably
don't with you knowing you are a Breeder so in light of this, I take back 'always' do and replace it with 'normally' do.

> they probably<br />don't with you knowing you are a Breeder

They didn’t before I started breeding either.

Silverleaf: > Just a quick defence of my vet, the only time she’s talked to me about castrating River was basically to advise me not to, as he has fear issues.

Sounds as if your Vet is very professional & caring but I would say your response relates to the opposite side: reasons NOT to rather than their advice TO
castrate/spey making complete sense in River's situation re testosterone levels & fear issues.

masajackrussel:> <br />They didn’t before I started breeding either

OK - fair comment.

A good vet is worth their weight in gold, especially when you have rabbits. (Third most popular pet in the U.K. after cats and dogs, yet they’re classed as “exotics” and far too many vets don’t have a clue about them.)

I can’t say enough good things about mine. :)

I have had golden retrievers all my life and do a lot of research before choosing a breeder. I would be hesitant of a breeder with too many 'dos' and 'don'ts' although permission to breed wouldn't bother me as I haven't nor have any desire to breed.
I have only had bitches and they are neutered 3 months after they have had their first season, never before. I do this for health reasons eg mammary tumours or pyrometria (infection of the womb) not for any other reason. I have known too many people whose un-neutered bitches have developed pyrometria which is a very serious condition. All my dogs have lived well past the normal lifespan and have been extremely healthy dogs.
Regarding male dogs, personally I feel it unfair for them not to be neutered when you aren't intending to breed from them as they will still have their sex drive with no release.. My bitches have been harassed countless times by un-neutered dogs even though they are spayed. I know some will disagree with me but this is just my opinion after a lifetime with this lovely breed.

> Regarding male dogs, personally I feel it unfair for them not to be neutered when you aren't intending to breed from them as they will still have their sex drive with no release.

I thought that too, but I haven’t noticed a problem with my 19 month old papillon dog. He occasionally humps when playing but as he isn’t fussy at all with regards to sex or whether his playmate is intact or neutered, I don’t think it’s really a sex thing with him.

He has been around bitches in various stages of their seasons (everyone on lead of course) and although he’s clearly interested and would absolutely try it on if allowed to, it seems to me it’s about the same amount of frustration as if I have a nice piece of roast chicken and don’t let him have any.

I’m not opposed to neutering at an appropriate age (I had a bitch who needed a pyo spay and she was really sick) but I really don’t think it’s as bad for intact males as you’d think, unless there are intact bitches living nearby.

I prefer bitches and have only had two makes. The first I castrated upon the advice of the vet and he was always nervous and snappy. He probably put me off makes, but I was persuaded to get a Mini Schnauzer male from a breeder I knew.

He sniffed my older bitch once, got told off and never did it again! She was spayed and he never once caused problems so I never got him castrated. He was wilful and stubborn but that is a Mini Schnauzer trait. But he never got into a fight or chased after bitches

Regarding male dogs, personally I feel it unfair for them not to be neutered when you aren't intending to breed from them as they will still have their sex drive with no release.

I could somewhat agree with that. I have an intact male who isn't good enough to breed from. He gets really stressed when the girls are on heat, but he is a very sensitive boy and I fear that neutering may make him more nervous.

This is my situation also.

I certainly think it is rather different when the male lives with entire bitches.

Though to be fair even males that are used for breeding will mostly have to live with unsatisfied urges, as they may rarely get an opportunity. 

In some ways the ones never used, don't know what they are missing, and are rarely in contact with an in season bitch.

I lived three doors down from my friend with male dobermans. Our gardens were just 75ft apart. I had as many as 3 bitches in season at once/ following each other, and none of the 3 males she owned over the years were upset, even though we met most days.

Most wild canines never mate, wirh only the Alphas breeding.

I strongly believe that we should be breeding sensible intact males (of all breeds) who are able to co-exist with their own species - intact - without being sex pests around dogs which are not in season and without being reactive towards other intact males.

I firmly believe that we are masking huge issues which breeders and breeding should be addressing, by just neutering everything at the first whiff of a problem or by normalising male-male aggression when both are intact.

Breed for well-balanced males with excellent temperaments who can be kept intact around other males and females and don't justify or normalise reactivity.

Some great points 1234, I agree.

I think training makes a big difference as well. I’ve worked hard on impulse control with my boy and he understands that he can’t always have everything he wants. If he’s being a pest to another dog, I take him away. He has to behave nicely in order to play, or get treats, or whatever he’s asking for. And he’s learning to give me his attention when there are distractions like other dogs.

I don’t doubt that he’d go selectively deaf if he was off around a receptive bitch, but if I walked him away he’d snap out of it. I’ve even had him tracking with an in-season bitch and he managed to concentrate and work fine.

Little pest can do that but he absolutely can’t resist stealing my dirty socks.

One of the best things that my dogs breeder did was to start training to the whistle when weaning the puppies in order to develop a good response to a recall whistle. As the puppies came forward to the food dish he gave a few peeps on the whistle so that the puppies associated the sound with coming to the human with food. I continued this at home for several months
Islas recall to the whistle is instant almost like something innate, blow the whistle and she turns to come back without apparently, even thinking

Yes, we do that with our litters.

I have on video the entire litter sound asleep in their bed, then I come sneaking out with their meal and blow the recall whistle and they all instantly wake up and come running!

She’s the first one that’s had such a good whistle recall and I’m sure it’s that early training the breeder did that’s instilled it. He said it was an old gamekeeper trick

Hello I haven't posted before but would be grateful for advice. 

We have a puppy due to us early February.  We have paid quite a large deposit. The breeder is KC, seems caring and responsible and has bred many times before. Since being born the pups mum has been very poorly, she had a large litter, a caesarean and then mastitis. The pups were weaned at 4 weeks due to the blocked teat.  Our pup was put on antibiotics and kept separate from the main litter but with another pup - in a family environment.  Mother was very poorly and is no longer with the pups. All the pups are together now.

My question is what to do?

To be honest without knowing why the puppy was on antibiotics (could be a large number of reasons), provided they are now healthy and well, I would not hesitate in continuing and it’s good the breeder has kept you updated. This is life and it’s more common than you think that these things happen. Sounds normal to me. I would just make sure you have the puppy checked by your own puppy within the first 48 hours, but then I would be doing that regardless of whether I knew it had been unwell or not. Good luck!

Thank you Alex

I think antibiotics because they had been feeding on the infected teat and had a temp. Mum was really sick.

Does it matter if pups taken from their mum at such a young age and so might not have learnt everything.

It would be fair to say that I wouldn't be at all concerned if we were talking about a rescue dog.  We have waited such a long time for this pup due to the current situation and I would so hate the heartache that might follow if there are complications.

I suppose my thoughts in a nutshell are that we researched this a lot and so have waited a long time for a puppy.  It is only 5 weeks old but already it’s been ill, weaned early, not socialised with it’s Mother etc etc.   As I said breeder seems very responsible and obviouly this is out of their hands and they are concerned about the mother's health. The breeder has been very open and I am loathe to step away but...what to do?

We are so looking forward to having a new puppy. We would definitely take any new puppy to our vet for a checkover but by that time time we will be invested.