Hello there, I'm new to Champdogs and this is my first post.  I would love some input please :)

We have been with our S&P Standard 24/7 since she birthed her litter of four on 2nd Jan, sleeping in the same room & everything. She's a great Mum, although a first-timer, feeding, cleaning attentively etc. The one thing that's not working is her awareness of not lying on the pups. The only advice we've come across around this is to stay in the same room as them however this simply isn't enough unless we constantly have eyes on her which is now what we're doing, doing shifts around the clock, but it's exhausting. Any suggestions how to stop this behaviour? As further background she's 6 years of age, extremely healthy and in top condition.  

We have pig rails in the box which have certainly helped avert numerous disasters but we have literally rescued pups from under her that she has had her full weight on, to the point that they aren't able to even make a noise and she seems oblivious. When we see a pup behind her we move it back to her belly etc but we really need more help here. We had a very bad outcome in the middle of their second night - suffice to say we desperately need expert input here.

I don't know if it's relevant but she also doesn't necessarily respond when one's crying and is wanting to get to her but can't quite make it.  When they were in the first couple of days she would ineffectively try dragging them by the leg but still hasn't seemed to have worked out the scruff of the neck thing.

Thank you so much in advance for whatever you're able to offer.

Rearing a litter is exhausting for her as well as you.  It is very early days but hopefully she will be more aware as the days go on.  She is an 'older mum' for a first litter so it has probably taken a great deal of energy from her. 
All you can really do is keep a close eye on her and keep moving the pups out of the way, be more aware when she goes back into the whelping box after a toilet break etc. 
Good luck!

Thank you for your response.  Yes, I was wondering if her age may have been a contributing factor although she's very young-acting it of course has been a huge hit on her system.  I'm feeling so very responsible but also understand that if they're not strong enough to make it through despite all our efforts then maybe it's natural selection at work.  So hard when you're so bonded to your dogs...

First-time mums can be a bit bewildered by the whole thing, especially as she's old for a first litter. It's likely that she'll need someone awake with her 24/7 till the pups are more mobile and their eyes are open (so about 2 weeks) to make sure there isn't an accident that could have been avoided. It's not 'natural selection' because even the strongest puppy can be crushed or suffocated very easily.

I have to totally agree with Ells-Bells in that doing a litter is indeed exhausting and totally time-consuming.  Having only whelped my big and heavy, and low to the ground breed, I know we had to be there pretty much 24/7.   Which wasn't easy with others to look after!   My husband did the night shift so I could get some sleep - he can cat-nap more easily than I can.  During the day, when he was off to work, if I had to be doing other things, I'd always leave the door to the room mum was in with her litter, adjar so I could hear if there was a problem.  Puppies of my breed make quite a racket if in trouble so I could go running     If you really have to be away for a while, best I can suggest, and it's far from ideal, is to move the pups into a box alongside mum (either under the heat lamp or on a warm pad) or move her out of the whelping box while you are not within 'running distance'.   Each day is a step forward, with the puppies stronger, and mum more knowing, hopefully.

Just to add, if you are going to remove her from them temporarily or them from her, it helps if you do this after they've all had a good feed and are off sleeping.  That way they should be quiet and not shout for her during the time you have to do this.    I had one bitch who hated the puppies in her second litter (she wasn't like this with the first) crawling hear her head.   I was worried that she'd snap so never left her with them unless I was right there.   Once their eyes were open, that wasn't such a problem and she wasn't needing to spend 24/7 with them in any case.

Unfortunately some bitches are less aware and careful.

With first timers especially vigilance until pups eyes open at least.is key.

I have lost one pup to crushing in a bitches 3rd litter, so experienced Mum who had been super careful before, even with her first large litter of 9.

This had been the first night after a long labour and both she and I were shattered.

It's no wonder breeding books state that pre weaning left to their own devices you would expect to loose 25 - 30% of a litter due to crushing, chilling and competition for food.

Most of us are much more careful than laboratories breeding research beagles, where I suspect such learned statistics emenate.

Anyway I have found with mine they seem to get better after about a week, and after the eyes open the pups themselves are more aware, larger and stronger.

Thank you for your input Jeangenie - it seemed like we had gone a bit OTT (certainly in the eyes of friends & family!) but we just couldn't see any other alternative.  It's reassuring that we hadn't missed something terribly obvious and she really just does need the extra support for now.  I have a friend who's bred toy poodles for years and has never heard of a puppy being suffocated like this but I guess their dogs are much lighter than the Schnauzer...

Ah, thank you so much for your helpful sharing - it helps enormously to not feel so alone and shamed that somehow I could have/ should have known to be on 24 hour watch from the beginning.  I thought getting through the birth so strongly by ourselves was such a big deal, little was I prepared for the need for this chapter of watchfulness...

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear you lost one in your girl's 3rd litter, that's shocking and must have been devastating for you :(. So surprising given her previous form, goodness, who would have thought...

Yes, I can see them virtually growing before my eyes, it's extraordinary!  One put on 23% of her body weight in a 24 hour period!!!  Generally they're putting on 10% a day so my girl is doing a wonderful job other than (still) sometimes lying on them *sigh.  Anyway, only Day 6 today...  every moment they're stronger... looking forward to the eyes opening part. 

Although it's exhausting I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing.  So lucky :)

> Although it's exhausting I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing.  So lucky :)

Provided all mum needs to be a good one kicks in, the first 3 weeks 'should' be the time when you can relax a bit - your WORK will begin once you start the weaning process     Provided mum learns to take care when around them and is attentive to feeding and dealing with the other end, all you really need to do is check the weight of each puppy to make sure they are gaining daily (weight wise, not just visibly )

At least I don't think you had a C.Section to consider re mum being ok.

You may need to clip the pointy ends of each puppy's nails because they can scratch around the teats, making mum uncomfortable.   I've had to do this with puppies of just days old.

As for the eyes opening - don't force this.   You'll find the more light the litter is in when in the whelping area, the longer this might take to happen.   Conversely the darker the room, the sooner you should see little slits appearing.

And yes, re losing one, each litter is individual - as was the case with the second (and last!) litter one of mine had re them crawling around her face.   She wasn't like that at all with the first litter.   Why with this one, I have no idea.

I hope it all goes smoothly.

Great, thank you for that MamaBas.  We were just talking today about whether/ when to remove the pups from her so we can both get a decent sleep.  For now my husband's doing the bulk of the night shift as he also catnaps easier than me and watches movies overnight whereas I'm running around during the day in the moments when everyone's asleep and safely out of Mum's way.  Even then I'm not away from her for more than a minute or two at a time because I'm so paranoid now.  The babies are still feeding very frequently and I really don't want to get in the way of the natural process so for as long as we can sustain it we'll keep doing the full monitoring.  I absolutely take on board your point 'tho that when we do try the separation thing we do it on the heels (no pun intended!) of the pups having fed & gone to sleep.  Again it sounds like things will improve once eyes are open.  Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, thank you :)

schnauz_love - FWIW, my husband slept on the sofa - the last few litters saw mum and puppies in the 4X4 whelping box in the corner of the living room (doesn't everybody do that ) so it wasn't really any hardsip for him to cap nap there whilst I got a fairly reasonable night's sleep (except I was worrying that he might miss something, so only slept lightlyi).    Once they were all up and around with mum only going in to feed them during the night, we moved the 4X4 box into the kitchen and added the second 4X4 section so they had in effect, a sleeping end (under the brood lamp) and a play-toiletting end.   That was the time that normal sleeping resumed, for us.  Even if it was up with the lark.  

I think we learnt something new with each litter, as the individual situation required.   In other words, some litters/mums were easier than others.  It can be exhausting however, but my reward if you like, was to have one or two good puppies to go into the next generation.

Thanks again MamaBas.  Yes, I had been expecting the work to really set in around weaning when I'll be doing the clean up instead of her!!  And they're more mobile etc.

Fascinating about their nails, that thought hadn't even crossed my mind so thank you for mentioning it - very helpful, I'll check them out.

Yes, I'm weighing them daily and recording the weights.  Also doing Mum's temp daily just to be on the safe side but she seems to be recovering very well.  You're right, it was a natural birth, no C-section.

Re eyes opening, absolutely no way would I be forcing this!!  (Do people actually do that??!!)  Because of the shock we've had we do have more light in the whelping room than we did for the first two nights to make sure we can see the puppies at all times.  I actually just tried darkening the room a few minutes ago before I read your post, using just a nightlight instead of a lamp but it wasn't enough illumination for me.  I'll change the globe in the lamp tomorrow and reduce the wattage so it's less bright.  It's over the other side of the room but even so I'd like the room a bit dimmer.

As much as it's a steep learning curve I'm so up for this - sure makes it easier with you lovely people on the other end of a post.
Very much appreciated

MamaBas, wow 4x4, what breed do you have??!!

And I totally get taking over the living room, we've turned our entire lounge room into the whelping room!!!  And then she whelped on the dog bed in the passage so that meant my husband and I on the floorboards for the best part of four hours although I did wimp out at one point and go get a chair seeing as she was resting so long between pups.

A friend who used to breed Rhodesian Ridgebacks actually just told me yesterday that he used to build a separate toileting section that he attached to the back of the whelping box and then cut a small hole so that just the pups could fit through.  Sounds a similar concept to yours perhaps..??  Or can your bitch access it too??  I had thought it sounded a very clever idea as I had only previously seen runs in front of the box that people then walked through to get to the box itself which never made much sense to me.  He did note that a lid/ top was required over the pups' toileting zone to stop the bitch from jumping in there and taking it over as her own! 

When you say "mum only going in to feed them during the night", do you mean that she would sleep elsewhere and just pop in to feed them when she felt for it??  Sorry if that's an obvious question, just trying to picture it in my mind.  I understand that every bitch is different and apparently they can even be different between litters so I guess some will decide to sleep away from their brood quicker than others.  My girl seems very attached and doesn't leave the pups much at all still.

Yes, we're hoping to keep one of these little girls.  Funnily enough the boy is the smallest of the three remaining and the girls generally hang together and he's off roaming the box already or else feeding (I joke that he's on a mission to try and catch up to their size!)

The best idea is to basically 'live' in the same room as mum and pups. I use our kitchen because then I can make endless cups of tea, cook, do washing - all whilst watching over things. I bring my laptop in there and a comfy chair, so I can sit right by the box and reply to emails from puppy buyers and enquiries and whilst away time online... watch movies... as long as you keep an eye and ear out. I sleep in a sleeping bag on a futon right by the box as well, and periodically open an eye during the night to check all is ok and leap up if there's any squeaking...

I actually find this time much easier than when they move to the weaning pen at 4wks, which is all about poop and cleaning!

Thank you onetwothreefour.  Yes, that's what we're doing - the lounge room has become the whelping/ living/ dining room with a sofa bed and everything except even sleeping in there didn't save the pup - she didn't make any noise when she was lain on :(

I have been very mindful that this is the 'easy' time of the whole puppy rearing season and it's just such a shame that we're having to do the vigil that we're doing as it means I'll be fatigued going into that weaning time but it is what it is.  At least we know they're safe with eyes on them all the time and can intervene when she lies on them, which she still does occasionally.  Not sure whether to correct her when she does this - my friend who used to breed toy poodles puppy sat for me this afternoon (so my husband and I could get out of the house together for some fresh air and exercise) and she reprimanded my bitch when she stood up, circled around and then proceeded to lay directly on top of one of the pups. 

Your thoughts about correction in this instance?? 
Anyone else want to weigh in on this point??

Generally the first 3 - 5 days the bitch will not leave thevwhelping box except to toilet, and to encourage this should be fed in the box, (I fed at least 4 times a day, and also hung a metal water bucket at a height it could not be knocked off.

Also a water bowl outside the box.

After the milk supply is established in those first days, you may find she will leave the box more happily, and may choose to lie outside it for short periods while pups sleep.

Bybtwo weeks this will be more frequent and if it's very worm she may choise to only go in to feed and clean.

By 3 weeks you should be able to start to reduce the heat, as pups will be able to regulate their body temperature. Until 3 weeks they cannot do this so rely on external warmth.

At 3 weeks.I moved my pups into the kitchen where I could double their space as Mamabas did.

By 4 weeks puos will with my breed be getting fed up with this space, wanting to be clean and explore more.

I introduce them to a safe outdoor area/large puppy pen, with a plastic 2 part house/kennel that the whole litter can sardine into between bouts of play.

Obviously and depending on weather, at first outdoor trips will be for half an hour, or so.

With my oudoorsy breed they wanted outside for most of daylight hours by 6 weeks.

When they are out gives you a chance to clean and sanitise their indoor facilities and vice versa several times a day.

It will seem an endless routine of cleaning indoors, then outdoors and back again, and feeding 4 times a day.

I tended to do most other additional interaction/socialisation in mornings and evenings to mirror the times new owners are most likely to be spending the most time walking training etc, and keep the middle part of the day more low key.

One of mine was very protective with her litters in the sense that she was constantly trying to tuck them safely underneath her to keep them out of sight. I spent a good few days trying to subtly pull puppies out from underneath so that they could breathe, without being too intrusive as that was upsetting mum and causing her to try again to hide them underneath! She did relax after a couple of weeks, and of course as they get older they are better able to get themselves out of trouble, but I had to be very vigilant!

>my friend who used to breed toy poodles puppy sat for me this afternoon (so my husband and I could get out of the house together for some fresh air and exercise) and she reprimanded my bitch when she stood up, circled around and then proceeded to lay directly on top of one of the pups. 

Gosh no, I'd never do that. You want the nursing mother to be very relaxed - any stress she may feel will get passed to puppies. Stressed mothers create stressed neonatal brains which grow into stressed adult dogs, more prone to reactivity, anxiety and other issues.

Reprimanding a dog randomly when she has no idea what the reprimand is for, definitely is not a good idea. Let alone having a stranger from outside the family sitting there and doing the reprimanding. Frankly I wouldn't let this person look after them again, what else are they going to take it upon themselves to do...?

Some dogs are just poor mothers, as has been said. If you don't like her mothering abilities, take note and don't breed from her or her offspring again. Nothing else you can do about it, other than supervise and rescue the pups.

Thanks so much for this Barbara. 

It seems my girl is very much in the normal range from what you say.  I naturally fed her in the box, this just intuitively made sense to me, and one of us is always sitting right next to the box so I like to think it's affirming for her the importance of being with the pups by the fact that we're doing it too!  I have only been feeding three times a day but might offer a bit more in case she wants it.  She's still not that interested in dry food, preferencing poached chicken (bless her) but also accepting her (premium) loaf, cut into small pieces, mixed with a little of the liquid from poaching.  I'm of the understanding that the extra nutrition in the (premium puppy) bics is important for her so am now offering just a few of these first when she's hungriest, coated in the chicken stock.  She finally relented last night and, after looking at me sorrowfully for a few mins this morning, finally ate the combo of (small amount of) bics, loaf & stock.

She doesn't seem to avail herself of the water that's on a stand just adjacent to the box, but I offer it to her where she's lying in the box and she'll drink then.

She has started lying outside the box for short periods - we've made a 'den' for her in the same room and she has an alternate 'nest' she created so she moves between these two.

It's very warm where we live so there's no extra heating required in the box, conversely I realised a couple of days ago, after reading on a forum, that the pups may have been overly warm as had thick vetbed in the box and they were scattered on the (relatively narrow) newspaper border around the outside, under the pig rails.  I changed out that vetbed for an older, thinner, smaller one, hence giving a wider newspaper margin and that seems better.  Mum seems happier too.  Do you actually use equipment to measure the temperature in the box??

And, in terms of her lying on the pups, would you correct her when she does this to encourage her to learn that this isn't the done thing??

Thank you so much for going through more of the way you manage the pups' routine as they grow.  It's so incredibly helpful to get an insight into how people manage their changing needs.  I would dearly love to convert all of our kitchen/ living space into pup zone but it's just not practical as it's on an upper level and it's much too hot up there, my girl chooses to be downstairs, even when we have the aircon going upstairs.  I figure it's best to locate her and them where she is most comfortable. 

In another few days I'll move the box from it's current position in the lounge/ whelping room down into a tiled area that's cool and is where she often likes to lie.  The box has a floor so the pups won't be on the tiles themselves - when they start being able to come out of the box I was thinking of using a pet fence to give them extra toiletting/ play space in that area.  I can gradually give over about 6 square metres of space down there to them so lots of room to bound around!  It also leads directly to the outside space I've prepared for them which has a combination of pavers and safe garden - probably another 6 square metres or so.

Good to know to just keep their first outdoor foray as quite a short one - makes sense.

I like your idea of focusing the interaction/ socialisation into the mornings and evenings in preparation for their transition to new homes.  Will be challenging to not be with them constantly but it makes excellent sense.  It's about them, not me!!

Thank you so much :)

Ah, thank you for sharing that LucyDogs.  Hadn't thought that it might be deliberate as a protective measure rather than accidental.  Excellent point

Thank you for that input onetwothreefour.  Yes, that was my instinctive take too.  I was very taken aback that she did this and it has certainly put me off asking her again.  I've worked hard to keep the environment very calm and supportive, it's not my way at all to introduce any angst.
Overall I think my girl's mothering instincts are fabulous, I've been very impressed with her dedication so her lying on the pups may actually be as LucyDogs experienced with her bitch, more an indication of a protective instinct...

>I like your idea of focusing the interaction/ socialisation into the mornings and evenings in preparation for their transition to new homes.  Will be challenging to not be with them constantly but it makes excellent sense.  It's about them, not me!!

I find that there's very little 'time off' from them in the later weeks because of starting their house-training, so I need to spend time making sure they're praised for toileting when they're outside, and encouraging them to go outside after indoor meals, for instance. By the time mine leave me they're 90% clean indoors during the day, making my job a tiny bit easier - and so the new owners aren't starting from scratch! (I do warn them that the pup will need to learn its new house layout and route to the door, so unless they give it 100% concentration they will get messes indoors.)

> wow 4x4, what breed do you have??!!

We bred Bassets.  I used a design for our whelping box based on one I saw somebody else recommending.   The basic 4 X 4 section which had a floor and 3 ft sides had a pig rail all the way round, with the front being a low section (pig railed) which allowed mum to get in and out but not the puppies.   Once they were up and around, we moved the original section to the kitchen, as said, and added another 4 X 4 section which had no pig rails, same height sides plus a floor, and the then 'front' had a hinged door for mum to have access which obviously needed us to be there to let her in, and back out again.   The original 'front' was removed.  As we tended to have our litters into the better weather, the puppies spent some time outside in our ex pen with some extra pieces to make the area bigger.  

As for 'only going in to feed' ..... mum had a bed alongside my husband on the sofa, and the whelping box.  She stayed with them through the first couple of weeks, during the night. 

This worked best for our bitches although we had one who really felt doing a litter beneath her - nightmare.   She refused to clean them other then pee and would ask to come out after a feed when the puppies had all settled down for a nap, and then stand outside the box squeaking to go back in again - so torn re motherhood!   That of course, woke all the puppies again.   Again, nightmare.   She only had the one litter, but did produce me two good puppies, one of each.

Re dry food, cleaning pups can make mouth sore, so add water. This is also good to maximise liquid intake for milk production.

I agree JG, I meant the fun cuddles and extra curicular activities.

With all the work of cleaning, feeding, moving them in and out your interacting with them all the time.

It becomes second nature to put them out for toiletting when meals finished, etc to get them on the way to clean habits. It's amazing how quickly they decide where outside they want to do poos once at 6 weeks I no longer have them in a pen outdoors, but freely mixing with Mum and other dogs in dog proofed garden.

Piddling on the other hand

It's one reason I make my whelping quarters cave like, and use a blanket over the top and sides.

This gives privacy, mutes light and retains warmth and humidity.

Didn't realise you were in Australia, here we always think of needing to keep pups warm enough initially, and then reducing heat to more comfortable levels for us and Mum.

Yes I would put a thermometer on the inside of whelping box.

By now you may be wanting to ensure temp is not above 25'C, in fact I keep my room at 20'C as I can't bear heat, and use a heat pad for pups, and with the ' cave' set up and Mum gives pups the extra warmth initially.

Mine is a thick coated breed and I generally find pups dispersing by about 5 days, so turn heatpad off in daytime, and on again at night.

Now you will need to ensure pups don't overheat. For your cave a thin sheet to give shade from bright light, as pups eyes can't take overbright light when first open. To be honest not until eyes turn brown.

I have used bottles of frozen water wrapped in towels on the few occasions in UK when temp over 25'C caused pups distress.

>I find that there's very little 'time off' from them in the later weeks because of starting their house-training, so I need to spend time making sure they're praised for toileting when they're outside, and encouraging them to go outside after indoor meals, for instance. By the time mine leave me they're 90% clean indoors during the day, making my job a tiny bit easier - and so the new owners aren't starting from scratch! (I do warn them that the pup will need to learn its new house layout and route to the door, so unless they give it 100% concentration they will get messes indoors.)

Yes, thanks for that Jeangenie.  I guess that's kinda automatic for me but appreciate you pointing it out :). I understood Barbara's point to be focused specifically on socialisation and am completely prepared for the fact I'll be constantly on duty doing the toileting training/ cleaning during the day (well as prepared as I can be when it's my first time!! - I'm sure it'll be full of surprises & learnings!!)

Thanks for all this info Barbara, so incredibly helpful and much appreciated :)

> Mine is a thick coated breed and I generally find pups dispersing by about 5 days, so turn heatpad off in daytime, and on again at night.

Ok, so pups dispersing means they’re overheating then??  We have the aircon in the room set to 24C but my husband finds that freezing and is wearing ugg boots and sometimes even his warm dressing gown to deal with the cold!! 

> For your cave a thin sheet to give shade from bright light, as pups eyes can't take overbright light when first open. To be honest not until eyes turn brown.

Cave?  Wow, this is new to me – so sounds like I should be having a sheet over the whelping box.  They’re Day 8 now…  Fascinating.  Thank you for this info.  We’ve made a den in the whelping room for Mum so she can retreat when she has a feel for it and she loves that.  Hadn’t thought about covering the box itself… would be concerned it might get too hot then.  We have the aircon going in the room but I’d think a sheet would prevent the ‘coolth’ from reaching them properly…??  And it would also then be tricky to keep eyes on them all the time and given Mum’s propensity for lying on them that would be somewhat of a concern for me…  I understand dogs like to hide away, and now I also understand it’s better for the pups to not have bright light, what are the other benefits of the ‘cave’ if you don’t mind me asking??  I guess I have to weigh the benefits with the risk, although we haven’t had to rescue any pups from beneath her for over 24 hours now so perhaps the danger period is past.  We were thinking of crating her next to the pups tonight (she’s crate trained) and of course still be sleeping in the room so if, for any reason, she’s upset or needs to come out we can attend to that.  Your thoughts??

> Re dry food, cleaning pups can make mouth sore, so add water. This is also good to maximise liquid intake for milk production.

Excellent, thanks for that Barbara.  I knew to be focused on offering lots of fresh, clean water for milk production and have been adding to her meals a little of the chicken broth that I poach her chicken in (only one meal of chicken a day, the other three are premium loaf & premium puppy bics) but hadn’t thought to add some extra water as well.  Doing that now :)

>I understood Barbara's point to be focused specifically on socialisation and am completely prepared for the fact I'll be constantly on duty doing the toileting training/ cleaning during the day

There's an awful lot of socialisation work that the conscientious breeder needs to do with the pups to prepare them for their new homes; the 'Rule of 7' is a good guide. By the time the pups are 8 weeks they should have been exposed to many different situations:

Been on 7 different types of surfaces:  carpet, tile, linoleum, concrete, wood, vinyl, grass, dirt, gravel, and wood chips.
Played with 7 different types of objects:  rope toys, plush toys, big balls, small balls, soft fabric toys, squeaky toys, paper or cardboard items, metal items, and sticks.
Been in 7 different locations:  front & back yard, basement, kitchen, car, garage, laundry room, bathroom, kids room, living room, hallway, Vet’s office, groomers.
Met and played with 7 new people:  include children and older adults, someone walking with a cane or in a wheelchair or walker, someone tall, someone in a hat.
Been exposed to 7 challenges:  climb on a box, go through a tunnel, climb steps, go down steps, climb over obstacles, play hide and seek, go in and out of a doorway with a step up or down, run around a fence.
Eaten from 7 different containers:  metal, plastic, cardboard, paper, human hands, pie plate, tin pan, frying pan, Frisbee, elevated bowl.
Eaten in 7 different locations:  crate, yard, exercise pen, basement, laundry room, living room, bathroom, back yard.

They should also have been taken out in the car, together and individually, making sure that none of these new experiences distress any puppy.

I suppose it depends on each litter and each breed, but even if this Rule of 7 applies, there are a number of things there that we'd never do with our Basset puppies - sticks - no.   Up and down steps - no.   And mine always had their food in the same place and from the same dish(es).   Doing much of what's encouraged within this Rule, would freak out the average sensitive Basset Hound, perhaps doing more harm than good.    Interesting tho.

> sticks.

I hope you don't mean wooden ones as they are a definite no, for any dog...I've seen plenty of pictures of dogs with mouth injuries whilst 'playing' with wooden sticks.

> climb steps, go down steps

Assume you mean low steps, the kind one maybe take getting into their front door or out onto a patio that are about 4 inches high. Not a stairs or steep set of steps, as they aren't good for young dogs bones to climb. I had one person say about training to go up & down stairs, whilst I disagree with this for the reason I previously mentioned, we cant do as we live in a bungalow!

I have to say we have never heard of this rule of seven in 60 years of dog involvement & there are quite a few items, on this list, that are just on our property

Eaten from 7 different containers:  metal, plastic, cardboard, paper, human hands, pie plate, tin pan, frying pan, Frisbee, elevated bowl.
Eaten in 7 different locations:  crate, yard, exercise pen, basement, laundry room, living room, bathroom, back yard.

Surely the suggestions for what from and where for feeding should not be a problem for any pup at 7-8 weeks. What happens when they go to new home which presumably is not an exact copy of your home or even if you yourself go away with the dogs on holiday.
I would have expected any pup that age to take it as just some thing different and not a major problem unless Bassets are all ultra ultra super sensitive dogs.

>Surely the suggestions for what from and where for feeding should not be a problem for any pup at 7-8 weeks.

They won't be a problem for a puppy that's been well exposed to many different experiences while still living in its familiar surroundings. However for puppies that have been reared in a pen or kennel, with just shavings or paper on the floor and 'mucked out' a couple of times a day and always fed from the same trough, these things can be very scary when they experience a normal home environment, with strangers, for the first time. Puppies reared in such a barren way should be avoided.

Just for the record, our puppies were reared in the home, starting in the living room where the whelping box was, with a sofa for one of us to sleep on and then moved into the kitchen where they'd hear ALL the sounds of a normal household.   And yes, Bassets do tend to be 'sensitive' within the normal temperament for the breed - so there    NONE of our puppies went off to their new homes without me being happy that they were fully weaned and ready for the outside world having lived a stress-free life up to then.   So there, again - to suggest otherwise with our occasional litters, is rude

No do not seperate Mum from pups, except during their meals once on weaning foods.

The choice to be wirh them or not should be hers.

Re Cave. My whelping set up is a base wirh puppy panels round 4 sides, and one with a door at front, and a panel across top for rigidity.

This is 30inches tall so with a blanket (or in your case a gauzy sheet/net curtain) would provide privacy and help make your bitch more relaxed, and shade for pups eyes..

Bearing in mind in UK your more likely to be trying to keep pups warmer than many of us and the bitch find comfortable.

You can easily see in via a gap at the front,

I would be very uncomfortable at 24'C heating, and have my thermostat mostly at 18'C and certainly never go over 20'C

Mum will be feeding pups through the night.

Jeangenie:> <br />There's an awful lot of socialisation work that the conscientious breeder needs to do with the pups

Well I never.  As a conscientious breeder myself, I have never heard of the 'Rule of 7' but I will give it some thought as I'm sure there is no such thing
as over socialisation.

Every Puppy I have had was raised in my home.
whelping box surfaces:  newspaper, blankets, wood shavings.  Toys:  small balls, fabric, squeaky.  Locations:  kitchen, utility, garden, paved area, grass.

I'm sure when they go to their new homes, they will be introduced to so many other experiences which will be part of the whole bonding process with
their new families but if they have experienced the 'rule of 7' that can only help during the settling in period.

https://www.thewholedog.org/ruleof7.html      there are a number of articles discussing this idea

https://www.eastcottvets.co.uk/article/202/socialising-dogs-puppies/  another good article about socialisation of puppies

Thanks, will have a look furriefriends.

Sorry just added another link

>I'm sure when they go to their new homes, they will be introduced to so many other experiences which will be part of the whole bonding process with

their new families but if they have experienced the 'rule of 7' that can only help during the settling in period.
I also give new owners a copy of the Rule of Twelve so that they can continue with the work that I've started with them.

Jeangenie:> if they have experienced the 'rule of 7' that can only help during the settling in period.

Exactly, as I said the little Puppies cannot be over socialised so brilliant and thanks to both you & furriefriends
for providing these links;  I think they will be most advantageous to every Breeder who is not aware of them.

The second link i posted discusses the effects of both over socialisation which can happen as well us undersocialisation .
Not related to the rule of 7 or 12 btw but in the other point

Yip furriefriends, will read through all of them and then take what I believe the best way forward is.  Thanks again...

> We bred Bassets.  I used a design for our whelping box based on one I saw somebody else recommending.   The basic 4 X 4 section which had a floor and 3 ft sides had a pig rail all the way round, with the front being a low section (pig railed) which allowed mum to get in and out but not the puppies.  Once they were up and around, we moved the original section to the kitchen, as said, and added another 4 X 4 section which had no pig rails, same height sides plus a floor, and the then 'front' had a hinged door for mum to have access which obviously needed us to be there to let her in, and back out again.  The original 'front' was removed.  As we tended to have our litters into the better weather, the puppies spent some time outside in our ex pen with some extra pieces to make the area bigger. 

Wow, that’s one huge inside dog-dedicated area Mamabas.  I’m very impressed!  Sorry for the delay in response, I’m getting very little time online now...

> As for 'only going in to feed' ..... mum had a bed alongside my husband on the sofa, and the whelping box.  She stayed with them through the first couple of weeks, during the night.
 
Yes, my girl is spending most of the time in the box with the pups still (Day 10) although periodically takes herself out for a break.  Napped on her bed down the hallway a few metres away for an hour or so in the middle of the night last night…  Guess they’re all different…  Still sometimes lying on them, sometimes they yelp, sometimes they don’t so it’s still requiring one of us to be awake and watching pretty much constantly.

> This worked best for our bitches although we had one who really felt doing a litter beneath her – nightmare.  She refused to clean them other then pee and would ask to come out after a feed when the puppies had all settled down for a nap, and then stand outside the box squeaking to go back in again - so torn re motherhood!  That of course, woke all the puppies again.   Again, nightmare.  She only had the one litter, but did produce me two good puppies, one of each.

Oh goodness, what a story!  Excruciating to have lived it but so glad it bore such wonderful fruit for you.  Sounds like it was ultimately worth the effort and wow, what an effort it was by the sound of it.  I like your take ‘torn re motherhood’, very funny to think of a dog being conflicted in that way!

> the 'Rule of 7' is a good guide

This is gold JG, thank you so much for posting.  Has certainly expanded my thinking in ways that I know will be good for my dogs.  Much appreciated (although slightly daunting but I’ll deal with that!!) :)

> No do not seperate Mum from pups, except during their meals once on weaning foods.  The choice to be wirh them or not should be hers.

Excellent, thanks for that Barbara.  I guess it was just something we were contemplating at that point as the lack of sleep was having ramifications.  We didn't however go down that path, even before I got to read your response, as we decided to hold off and just watch overnight for how long she was stretching between feeds.  It was clear from that observation that it wasn't going to be workable.  The last thing we want to do is stress Mum or pups - so far they are all incredibly calm and relaxed and we'll do everything in our power to keep them that way. 

I had another piece of useful learning yesterday when a friend came to visit who used to breed a larger breed and noticed I had some spare towels & drybed in a corner ready for use.  He strongly discouraged this, explaining that Mum could decide to remove some number of the pups (not necessarily all) over to this pile and they could be smothered.  Horrifying!  And embarrassing I hadn't thought of that possibility.  I immediately stripped down the room & removed anything that could potentially be rolled up and be a danger to the pups.  I had thought of them being contained in the box for now, the thought of her moving them simply hadn't crossed my mind.  I share that here in case there's anyone else who is similarly naive and could benefit from the learning (although I get the sense you've all been doing this for a very, very long time!!).