https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13602402/shocking-truth-lockdown-puppy-smuggling-costing-dogs-lives/

Just wondered what thoughts from a breeder’s perspective are on this, being someone who has imported (and spent a small fortune on high quality transport I’ll add).

My personal view is that it’s not the age limit that’s the problem, it’s the complete lack of training and due care and attention at the borders. Across Europe puppies don’t seem to be checked at all until they get to the U.K. border (I think the exceptions might be Germany and Switzerland) even at that point my transporter tells me the puppies themselves aren’t even ‘handled’ it’s literally a chip scan and look through papers. So they could be anything. On the other hand my breeder told me of someone with a toy breed whose puppies got seized despite being over 6 months! And were held for over a month where they were released in poor condition (lost weight, costs matted). I fear that like a lot of things raising the age to 6 months will only impact those of us who do everything properly. But it is disgraceful that all these loopholes are allowing organised criminals to profit in this way, so I absolutely agree with the notion that something needs to change.

I think you’re right, the checks are not stringent enough and possibly not done by people with enough knowledge of dogs. I too have imported (from Russia) and spent a lot of money on the transport to be done correctly. She was driven over here, took 3 days with all the numerous stops and breaks. Turned up here happy as Larry and settled in amazingly.

It's a tough one I think. Making it so puppies will be 6 months would make it less apealing for dealers as it will be hard to pass off an 6/8 week old puppy for a 6 month old one if the customs are paying any sort of attention. Yes it will mean it will be harder for breeders who wish to import. Of course it could mean a rise in UK puppy farms if it's harder to get them from the eastern European ones.

I don't think the answer is to increase the age to 6 months. I mean, we already have laws in place which are supposed to prevent this from happening and they are ineffective so what use is creating even more laws going to have? They will also be ineffective. Just properly implement the existing legislation and increase checks on imports...

Otherwise those of us well meaning breeders importing pups will have to wait another 2 months if we want to import pups from Europe to improve bloodlines. This will just mean many people don't do it and we lose out on European bloodlines...

I disagree. I think it will be great if pups can't be younger than 6 months. It's been mentioned about extra training for customs officers and the simple fact that any pup who still has their milk teeth should mean that it is younger than stated so far easier to detect. I don't see that responsible breeders/exhibitors have anything whatsoever to lose out by having to wait until the pup is older before importing. First off you aren't buying a tiny pup whose bite may change, or testicles may not appear, or who may not turn out the way you hoped. Secondly if it saves even a small percentage of all these young puppies being imported just to be sold, then it's worth it. (And yes I have imported, the first time the dog was 11 months old when he got here, the second time he was 10 months.) And in my main breed we have a huge problem with irresponsible breeders and dogs in rescue, and the main reason for that is that it became too easy for people to import pups, both to sell on and to keep for breeding for all the wrong reasons. Before the pets passport rules changed we had no rescue problem as the breeders all stuck together and if one of us was contacted by somebody who seemed very unsuitable, we all joined together and refused to sell.

I would be pleased if none under 6 months.  Nearly every puppy being imported currently is some poor puppy farm creature and the suffering is terrible. There would be no profit in importing 6 month old dogs for selling on as well past their sell by date with puppy buyers

Marc Abraham has stated this is to stop dealers. If an individual is purchasing a puppy from a good breeder and its in the new owners name and they are bringing it back over themselves then this won't affect them. Its dealers bringing over whole litters at a time into the UK to sell on

I think staff just need better training and a better system. It doesn't matter what age is allowed the current system is easy to manipulate I think.

The animal reception centre for the tunnel at Calias seem really on the ball, the other ports not so much.

I've travelled several times through Hook of Holland with dogs for shows in Europe. The staff members have never came out of their booth, they hand you a scanner and you scan each dog in your vehicle and hand it back to them, we could have had a pile of extra dogs in the car or motorhome and they wouldn't have known. Also I came through there twice with one dog, and the 3rd time I used the tunnel. The animal reception centre noticed that his passport wasn't signed by the vet! They never noticed that the two previous trips from Hoek.

I had to get my vet to fax a copy passport over then go into Calais itself to get a French vet to countersign the passport before they would let me travel. Also you have to physically take your dogs into the centre to be scanned, so the staff see them.

If I was i the business of importing illegal puppies I use the Hoek - Harwich route!

> Across Europe puppies don’t seem to be checked at all until they get to the U.K. border (I think the exceptions might be Germany and Switzerland)

No exceptions there either, you just drive across borders in mainland Europe with no checks. Technically you cannot transport pups under 12 weeks, but as nobody appears to ever be stopped it's not enforced. I've driven from Scotland to Germany the last 11 years for our European specialty and never once been stopped crossing any border until we get to either Hook or Calais.

I for one, would welcome the increase in age.   Not from Europe but when living in Canada, we imported two from the UK.  Our foundation bitch who was 5 months +, and some years later, a male who I needed for his bloodlines and he was 7 months at the time.   No way would I have wanted to put a puppy of younger than that through all that was involved - although of course, the flight from the UK to Toronto, was significantly longer than any from Europe.   I believe 6 months is plenty young enough.   And there's no point shutting the door to breeders who do need European bloodlines to enhance their lines, specifically.

Looking at that photo of the man 'handling' those puppies makes me weep.  But of course, the photo is chosen to fit the article.

The point of 6 months is that adult teeth will be through/coming through which cant be manipulated. Many border control cant tell the age of a puppy in different breeds without adult teeth as a guidance. Marc even said himself even vets can have a hard time determining especially when lots of breeds as they all vary in size, weight etc

Yes I don’t disagree and I think that is at least a fail safe age provided of course that all breeds would meet that criteria. I think this would have to be a blanket limit though as if this was only for commercial imports I think you would end up with another criminal opportunity by offering people the chance to earn money pretending to import privately.

Yes and on many many breed groups across Europe there are plenty of people taking younger puppies cross border

To be honest there's not much profit in importing 4 month olds, if they really were 15+weeks.

It is this age that probably needs the most feeding.

The main issue is lack of proper checks.

Apart from some toy or small breeds anyone with some basic training should be able to tell the difference between a baby pup, and the Gawky leggy less cute toddler that is a 4 month pup.

I agree that adult dentition of a 6 month old is more definitive, but the issue is the dogs are not looked at by the border people.

I have only ever had documents checked, and given a scanner, and they just check rhe number on scanner to documents.  They didn't leave their booth or see my dog.

I helped a friend import a dog under the old Rabies jab, titre test, and wait rules prior to 2012.

This meant the youngest a pup could come in was 10 months. The cost in 2011 was in region of £4500 over £1000 was Cargo and Heathrow fees. The puppy purchase price was only around £750.

It is very difficult to find a breeder willing/able to keep a pup that long. It will need to be kenneled, or equivalent paid to breeder.

Additionally unless you have kennels it can be difficult to integrate an adolescent into your pack, especially a male, if you already have males.

My friend was only able to do so because both her social males were veterans, one in his teens.

Also the costs become quite prohibitive, very similar to those of Quarantine.

Having brought in a dog in a 4 way partnership in 2001, in some ways Quarantine was better as we visited him regularly. I visited 2 - 3 times a week and his other owners when they could.

I totally agree Barbara. I wouldn't want to go back there or see it made any harder for breeders to import decent bloodlines.

Under the current system, I could just about take a 6 week holiday in a European country to wait for the Pet Passport at 15wks and thereby be able to socialise the pup from 8wks. If the age were increased to 6 months, there's no way I could do that and I would really not want to import at all.

Unfortunately in my training classes I've had many pups imported at 15wks from reputable European breeders who just didn't or couldn't socialise the pups they kept well enough, as well as the pup they kept and their other dogs - so the pups ended up being reactive and spooky towards strangers. (Picardy Shepherd and an Entlebucher - neither puppy farmed and both from reputable breeders who show.)

You do realise this won't affect people buying a puppy directly from a breeder and bringing it over under 6 months.  When the puppy has passed its time frame from the rabies jab and got its passport if in an EU country it can come over before 6 months. The UK will be accepting EU issued pet passports, its just the UK need AHC to go into the EU now

1234:  > I wouldn't want to go back there or see it made any harder for breeders to import decent bloodlines

I have never imported a Puppy/Dog and consequently have been watching this & previous posts with interest as I would also consider bloodlines
from abroad.

If for example, a Puppy of 8 weeks old. leaving the Breeder and was being imported from say; Poland to Scotland, how long would that Puppy be in transit. in quarantine/holding facility and have limited interaction with humans & other animals?

If the youngest Puppy would have to be 6 months old before papers were certified, would that then make a difference in timing?
Can't decide whether inreasing the minimum age for clearance is a good thing or a bad thing?

I don't understand, how would it not affect a puppy purchased directly from a breeder?

1234:> how would it not affect a puppy purchased directly from a breeder?

Sorry - What?  I asked about the time scale, not whether it would affect a Puppy/Dog or not.

Think it was a reply to suejaw’s comment. But I think if there are allowances for private imports not commercial it will be impossible to police, like o said before it will only encourage more criminal activity with people acting as private importers on behalf of the sellers.

I agree I’m answer to other points the only downside to even a 15 week puppy (mine was actually 17 weeks as we felt the four month milestone would make her a bit sturdier for travel) that you massively miss out on socialisation. Luckily mine is fantastic with dogs, people, new outdoor places and travelling, but she lived outside and it’s been a much harder transition than a younger puppy as she naturally does not like being indoors. It would be hard to find a breeder who would keep to 6 months but I’m also sure for exactly this reason whether I would want to.

74Alexandra: I was answering 1234...didn't quite pick up on what her response meant.
I normally address the response to the individual so no wonder none of us new who the response was for.
Oh and I have taken on the comments you made above.  Goodness, this can be confusing !

Yes I agree. I think we'd be looking to taking bitches to Europe and breeding to studs there to bring in blood if this went through, rather than many people importing puppies at 6 months :(

I think mating a bitch abroad is probably the best way, but now having to get a Health Certificate at least 10 days before would mean doing it the moment a bitch came in season, and might be too late for some.

If you are importing a puppy the passport and paperwork will be in your name and it will be 1 puppy. Very different to commercial movement of whole litters and many litters to bring across to sell and advertise once they have arrived into the UK.

If you search on Facebook and join a few international dog pet transport groups you will very quickly see requests for private individuals to take one or two puppies cross border, most recently I have seen a request for four German shepherd puppies - it was described as being for a ‘security customer’ but quite rightly the licensed/registered transporters all responded saying absolutely no way. It’s very easy to navigate the system and that’s why if this is passed it will unfortunately have to be a blanket approach for this reason in my view. It will no doubt open up the opportunity for ‘paid’ private nannies as there is nothing to stop you ‘selling’ your puppy on once it’s here.

>having to get a Health Certificate at least 10 days before would mean doing it the moment a bitch came in season, and might be too late for some.

Oh gosh I hadn't thought of that. So does that mean you can get the health certificate more than 10 days before? Is there a maximum time before? Can you get it a month before she comes into season for eg?? Or do you have to know travel dates when you get the certificate?

If so I guess no one will be able to travel before day 10 of a season...

Hopefully this will just be a temporary thing and they will figure out something better long-term.

The AHC can be obtained up to 10 days before travel 1234 and no earlier. If those ten days expire you need to get a new certificate. It is valid for one point of entry into the EU and then onward travel within the EU for 4 months I believe. If you leave the EU at any point you have to get a new certificate before re-entry. You can return to the U.K. within the same 4 month period. Not sure what the procedure would be if you were after that time though.

> but now having to get a Health Certificate at least 10 days before would mean doing it the moment a bitch came in season,

At most 10 days, not at least, before leaving the country.

>The AHC can be obtained up to 10 days before travel 1234 and no earlier. If those ten days expire you need to get a new certificate.

I feel really stupid now but I still don't get it...

Do you mean that if you want to travel on (say) 1st February, you need to get a certificate on 22nd Jan? (10 days before) At the latest? So you couldn't get one on 23rd+ of Jan?

But could you not get one earlier, before 22nd Jan? 

I am just having a brain melt down about this '10 days' thing and what that means...

If you can get one 23rd/24th etc and later, then that means you don't need to know when your bitch will need to be mated 10 days in advance, right? You could just get the health certificate and go a few days later?

>Do you mean that if you want to travel on (say) 1st February, you need to get a certificate on 22nd Jan? (10 days before) At the latest? So you couldn't get one on 23rd+ of Jan?

If you want to travel on 1st February, the earliest you could get the AHC is 23rd January (making 1st February the 10th day) You could get it any day after that - they're valid for a maximum of 10 days. You can go the day after getting the certificate if you want.

>If you can get one 23rd/24th etc and later, then that means you don't need to know when your bitch will need to be mated 10 days in advance, right? You could just get the health certificate and go a few days later?

As long as you go within 10 days of the date of issue, you can stay abroad for 4 months.

You can get one the day before travelling if you want to but it must be used within the 10 days or you'll need a new one.
It will last 4 months for one trip only from what I read.

>It will last 4 months for one trip only from what I read.

Correct.

If you travel out the day after the AHC is issued, and return a couple of days later, you can't use the same AHC to travel out again even if it's still less than 10 days since it was issued. They're for one return journey only.

>You can get one the day before travelling if you want to but it must be used within the 10 days or you'll need a new one.

Well that doesn't sound like a problem for going abroad for breedings? You'd just get one when you book your travel which won't be more than 10 days ahead...

Ah I read it as at least 10 days before travel not up to.

Brainless:> Ah I read it as at least 10 days before travel not up to

Me too...typical new legislation - no one quite knows the exact way ahead when it first starts!

How to get an animal health certificate
You must take your pet to your vet to get an animal health certificate. You need to do this no more than 10 days before you travel.


Back in the days before the Pet Travel scheme you got a health certificate usually either on the day or the day before your animal was due to travel, whether the dog was leaving or arriving in UK. The new legislation has gone back to pre 2000 law on this point solely.

No law will help without prober enforcement and education of enforcement agents at the border. How will increasing the age help if enforcement agents never get out of the booth and examined the puppy. I can't remember who it was but an undercover investigation imported a toy (stuff toy) with a fake EU passport, never got caught because the agent never asked to see the dog.

There's also some kennels getting fake EU passports by bribing certain vets in Eastern Europe.

When looking for a Moscow watchdog puppy from abroad I was offered to be sent a 6 week old pup, no vaccination and the agent would give it a mild sedation to get it across the boarder. I gave this breeder a wide birth.

With regards to taking bitchs abroad to breed wouldn't it be easier to find a breeder that ships frozen semen? I know the KC has relaxed some of the AI rules and it seems like the best solution. You can have it ship to your vet in advance and then take the bitch to the vet when it's time.

In my chosen breed I've seen several FCI breeders with show champions that offer frozen for certain stud dogs. Obviously not all breeders and every dog so the chioce is more limited but I was thinking of going down this route in the future.

The Red Tape and Vet costs/travel make it a very expensive option.

First you need an import license.

In my breed we have only ever had 2 successful A1 litters in the UK, and many expensive failures.

You can't just ship the semen to yourself. It has to go to a licenced holding facility, you have to buy the container, then pay the various people for their services. Studs vet, your Repro Specialist, the Carrier, the licenced holding facility. Then there may be health testing for infectious disease of the stud.

Results are much better with fresh chilled semen as quite commonly used in USA and Australia, but then timing of collection and transport are crtical, with progesterone testing delays here, and still all the DEFRA Red Tape!

Thanks for your reply.

I knew about having to pay for the container, shipping and the licensed holding facility. But you've raised some points I do need to consider and research more.

If I do choose this option it won't be far several years, so still have a lot to learn.

Thanks for your reply.

I knew about having to pay for the container, shipping and the licensed holding facility. But you've raised some points I do need to consider and research more.

If I do choose this option it won't be far several years, so still have a lot to learn.

Good luck.

When I looked at the sheer complexity, wirh so many people and steps involved, and potential for goingbwrong, and then low chance of success, I decided to travel instead

I travelled to Finland in October 2006, needing 2 flights each way, and then there was a Traffic controllers strike while I was there, but luckily resolved before my return flight.

The second time was December 2010 to New York, during all that snow, with flight disruptions, also not knowing if we'd get back OK, with our return flight being altered, and rerouted to Ireland, due to problems, and finally getting to Brussels 8 hours late!

Luckily I'd booked a late Ferry home and still managed to get on the one after the booked one, so no extra charge.

I was lucky that both bitches took.

Are people importing puppies to sell here because the prices have tripled and the profit they’d get would be larger?
I’m new to the dog world so please excuse my ignorance.
Thanks.

The breeders here who are importing or have imported are doing so to improve their lines or increase the gene pool available in the uk.  I
Its not at all unusual that some look further a field than the uk if the most suitable pup is not available here .
These pups will be part of their breeding plans for.the future and loved and looked after like their other dogs not to be sold on  .
Its not a cheap alternative but for the dedicated breeder the cost and efforts are worth everything so they can improve the breed and develop their lines for the future .
Some breeds there are just not sufficient good dogs in this country so bringing in a pup from abroad is sensible
Its for similar reasons that breeders .sometimes use   foreign dogs to mate with so the breeders  have to take their bitch abroad for mating

Its done very carefully and with a lot of thought

This is very different from those u hear of  who bring pups in often smuggling them to sell for exhorbitant prices .also often from very dubious sources .

> This is very different from those u hear of  who bring pups in often smuggling them to sell for exhorbitant prices .also often from very dubious sources

Legally puppies need to be over 15 weeks old before they can be imported.

An overseas Puppy Producer breeding to cash in on the uneducted UK demand is not going to want to keep pups that long, especially as by that age they are eating more than an adult and are no longer the cute puppy, but becoming less attractive and gangly.

So they send very young puppies with falsified paperwork (easy to bribe a vet there) showing them as being Rabies vaccinated 3 weeks before travel.

In reality they probably have not been vaccinated at all, or if they have been the vaccine would be ineffective at 3 to 5 weeks.

My family are Eastern European, and the culture of Petty corruption is still considered normal.
Put this with entrepreneurial drive has found puppy farming a good earner.

Many people even though apartment dwellers traditionally had large securely fenced allotments where they kept poultry,  pigs,  and often Coypu/Nutria or Arctic fox for fur, as well as growing produce. So very easy to switch to puppies.

Canine welfare apart, this is a danger to our Rabies free status.

> Canine welfare apart, this is a danger to our Rabies free status.

Very true Barbara. All hell will break out here if Rabies arrives on our shores. Let's hope it does not!

Not half. One time when a dog here was thought to have died from rabies the results was thousands of wild animals killed to get it under control before it got into the general population.

I grew up seeing animals suffer from rabies, usually wild ones.   It did not happen that often but it is still a very unpleasant thing to see.  When we visit my family, rabies is on the 'warning' check list of things to discuss.  I could gripe about a lot of things regarding current affairs on the matter but regardless, it be devastating for the disease to resurface in the UK.

Yes it was eradicated in 1922.

This is an interesting document re UK Rabies control strategy:
https://www.hps.scot.nhs.uk/publications/hps-weekly-report/volume-53/issue-37/revised-rabies-control-strategy-for-great-britain-published/

There have been one off cases over the years but the one that caused the worst effects in "recent" years was this one

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/28/rabies-wildlife-cull-gas-archive-1969   

We also have a road near us in surrey called Rabies Heath Road . No where can I find the origin of the name though