Quick question for those familiar with progesterone testing. Long time lurker, so I would like to qualify by saying, I have had many successful litters. I own Rotts and both my (2.5Y) bitch and (3.5Y) male have been OFA tested for hips and elbows (E/E), JLPP clear, both are champion bloodlines with permission from each breeder to mate, after inspection of registrations. With that being said, I have always done natural litters, but this time I chose to get a progesterone test done today. I got a level of 4.6. Should I test again tomorrow or wait another day? My male who has sired 2 litters so far, is VERY keen on my bitch right now. Blood has changed to a salmon color, and the bitch is definitely flagging. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

I'd leave it another day - typical she's needing testing just as Christmas is here!

I'd give it a try when both are willing - fwiw!

I've never found progesterone testing to be very helpful (the lab said progesterone was barely on the scale and to retest in 5 days, when test strips said the bitch had already ovulated, and she and the stud dog certainly agreed, and we had a very nice litter). So I'd go by the dogs' behaviour and mate them alternate days.

I know, right at Christmas

Is this measurement in ng or nmol?

ng

Thatguy:

Laboklin Laboratories offer swabs to test your bitch's Progesterone Levels yourself and give guidence on how to take the test and read the outcome.  It may help in future when deciding when your bitch is at the optimum time for mating.

Some bitches can flag all the way through. I would try them and see what happens being you hVe them both there. If she isn't ready you will soon know. You've not lost anything and can try again another day.
Ovulation is around now so by the charts mating within the next 48hrs depending on how small or large her window is. Personally I would try them now, you lose nothing from giving it a go.

I have the same breed as you and 1 of my bitches had to be mated on the day of ovulation in order to take and another the day after ovulation, if I waited that 48hr window they would miss. I did try that and we go no pregnancy so I always err on the side of caution and try earlier.

I tried today and she was receptive. They got a 5 minute tie, but she was very uncomfortable with the tie, yelping slightly. Afterward, she wanted to lick his face and play, and they are inseparable again now. Last litter they had, she was very relaxed in the tie.

Thatguy:> she was very uncomfortable with the tie, yelping slightly

That's not unusual and the fact they are continuing to play up to each other means there are further matings to come in the right circumstances.
Be patient it can take hours even days.

You are probably a bit early but it's good you got a tie.

>13 - 18 Nmol or 4 - 5.6ng ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2-4days

Eggs take 48hrs to ripen and be able to be fertilised after ovulation, so assuming she has just ovulated a breeding in a couple of days should be right on. The semen from today's breeding may live that long, but best to try again in 2 days' time...

So I had her levels tested today and they fell to 3.6. Oddly enough, my male is even more interested in her now than before. Has anyone ever seen the levels fall like this? Still a very light pink bleed.

Did you test using the same test and the same lab? If you switch labs, you can get slightly different results according to how the machines are calibrated.

If it's not that, then yes it is possible for levels to fluctuate - bitches can even have split heats where they come out of heat for a few weeks and then go back in. If that happens, be warned that things happen fast when they go back in...

If you have access to the male I would just keep breeding them every 2 days for as long as she will stand. And monitor progesterone just to see where things are, but not using it for breeding decisions. You will then know when she took (and when she is due) by looking at the progesterone retrospectively.

@onetwothreefour
Yes it was the same lab, thank you for asking, and thank you for the advice. So, as of now, my male is COMPLETELY out of his mind. He was very keen on my bitch before, but now he is a insane. She is still standing for him, so as you suggested, and as I’ve done prior, I’m going to breed them as long as she will stand. I like the idea of re-testing her levels in a few days to time the ovulation, to pin point the day if she takes. I plan on taking her in the day after Christmas to get another test done. I will post back with her updated levels when I get them.

As promised I am checking back in with new updated progesterone levels. I got them taken at the same lab, by the same vet. Today her levels tested at 7.9. I let them tie yesterday (about an 8 minute tie), so the vet suggested tomorrow and then every other day until she isn’t standing any longer.

@onetwothreefour - you were correct. Her levels fluctuated and went down. The vet said this happens occasionally right before they ovulate, for some reason.

Thank you again for all your input from those who have used progesterone testing. Now, let’s just hope she takes this time and we get the chance to whelp some more beautiful pups.

5.9 - 9.7ng ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1-3 days

Yes, I'd say your vet's advice is spot on. The semen from yesterday's breeding will still be there today and it would be ideal to get more in tomorrow too.

@onetwothreefour

I just bred them again. She freaked out a little, but of course I was out there with them, and I was able to calm her down. Got about another 8 minute tie. She’s so crazy though, she acted upset, but then instantly went to licking his face and wanting to play afterwards.

I don't think her getting upset has any bearing on whether the breeding will be successful or not, so I wouldn't worry about that.

As an update. They tied again on the 28th, 30th and 1st. Each with about a 7-10 minute tie. Yes she was being a mouthy girl, but I was able to calm her down each time. My male was sweet, trying to lick her face and lick my face while she was throwing her small fits

Did you do another progesterone? If not, she will have a very large whelping window with so many breedings...

a very large whelping window with so many breedings

Yes, with the first tie occurring on 22nd, with another on 27th along with the next 3!

I thought so too, but the vet that did the testing told me that since her level wasn’t technically over 5 until 12/27, that her eggs would be ready to fertilize on the 28/29th, so I can expect 63-65 days from those dates. He is one of the premier vets in my city for progesterone testing for frenchies. I should be able to take her in for x-rays on day 55 starting from the earliest breeding, and he will be able to tell by the density of the spines, and if they aren’t matured enough, he can then do another x-ray on the dates he specifies to give an approximate whelping date. I asked why she would’ve stood so early if she wasn’t ready, and he said some females just do that, especially if they have bred before. I guess that’s a thing with canines, so they can try to hedge their bets and make sure and produce a litter. He said wolves and canines used to do this in the wild. I appreciate the questions though, because I was wondering the same thing, especially not having ever done a progesterone test before. But he seems to be very knowledgeable on testing and being able to spot ovulation dates and when the eggs are fertile.

It doesn't matter how knowledgeable someone is, they can't foresee things it is impossible to foresee: When you can do one simple extra blood test to really pinpoint ovulation versus bringing a dog in for multiple x-rays (very risky - see links below) - and when you're talking about a breed like the frenchie which is very prone to needing c-sections anyway, so therefore you really need to know when she has gone over, it was really irresponsible for him not to insist you get a progesterone test.

Dogs don't read the books. They hang at certain levels for days when they are not supposed to. Things rarely progress in all ways according to a textbook when it comes to heat cycles.

As for x-rays:

https://www.avidog.com/how-badly-do-we-need-to-know/
https://www.avidog.com/how-badly-do-we-need-to-know-part-2/

I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to when you say she went over, but I got 3 progesterone tests. First one was 4.6, second one was 3.6, and the next one was 7.9. He said on his machine dogs ovulate between 5.4 approximately and 7.6 approximately. He told me that she ovulated in between the second two tests, and that she was ready to breed the next day, which is what I did. He said I was welcome to come back for another test, but if I did another test, it would just be to reaffirm what he already said, but that another test would provide the same information he already gave me. Thank you for your concern though. I will keep it in mind.

>I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to when you say she went over,

I'm not saying she went over, but that you need to know ovulation so that you know when to seek medical advice and a c-section at the other end of pregnancy. French bulldogs often run into trouble whelping, due to the width of their skulls, the small number of puppies in each litter and being prone to inertia. If you don't know when she is due to whelp (because you bred so many times over such a wide period, without verifying with progesterone when she ovulated and when the eggs would have been fertilised) then you are leaving yourself with a very stressful situation at the other end of pregnancy - when she may go overdue, without you even realising. If you want to schedule a c-section, when will you schedule one for? Too early and the puppies won't survive because their lungs won't be developed enough. Then you get into having to do reverse progesterone at the other end, all so you can calculate something it would have been much simpler to calculate now.

>First one was 4.6, second one was 3.6, and the next one was 7.9. He said on his machine dogs ovulate between 5.4 approximately and 7.6 approximately. He told me that she ovulated in between the second two tests,

The only way to determine ovulation is to get a result between 4.0-8.0 nmol followed by a 3 point (at least) rise within 24 hours. So you got your result between those figures with the 7.9 result, but you did not verify that was ovulation by doing a further test. You should have done a further test, which if she had ovulated, would have been 11nmol or more. Then you would know retrospectively that the 7.9 was ovulation.

Unfortunately many people do just what you did, assume that ovulation has occurred, stop breeding, and the nmol result hangs around the same amount for many more days, before escalating far later than expected. And then people miss.

In your case, it's unlikely you've missed because you bred so many times - but it means you don't know when she took. Semen can live up to 5 days in the bitch. She could have ovulated 3+ days AFTER the LAST mating, and still have taken.

You should always always do progesterone tests till you get an 'ovulation definitely happened' result, not just assume and project that it's about to happen. I mean, if you do it at all, you may as well use it properly with reliable results or it makes it all a bit pointless.

>He said I was welcome to come back for another test, but if I did another test, it would just be to reaffirm what he already said,

No, it would have been to confirm ovulation had occurred. I don't know if that's a misunderstanding between you and the vet, but really he should have encouraged you to return. Good luck to you at the other end of pregnancy now, trying to figure out when she is due... Just ONE MORE blood test could have saved you countless x-rays, stress, going overdue, reverse progesterone and more at the other end.

Semen can and does live longer than 5  days inside the bitch.
Early mating won't necessarily cause bitches to miss but mating too late will.