Good day everyone, I hope you all had a good Christmas.

We’ve finally got our little pup home before the tiered restrictions scuppered our plans for which we are very grateful. The little one has had her first Lepto 2 vaccination and when we bought her to our local vet we were advised to go for Lepto 4. Now I appreciate this is potentially a contentious issue but I don’t feel the need to restart another course of vaccinations when surely Lepto 2, having been on the market for a while now, should suffice. I get the impression there’s an attempt to upsell here but I’m hoping you lovely people can offer a constructive discourse of sorts. (I did run a search before posting but there wasn’t anything specifically focused on lepto 2 Vs lepto 4).

We live in East Sussex btw. My sister lives in North London and her vet (an old school sage like type character) says that there should be no need to go for lepto 4 if you’ve already stared a lepto 2 course of vaccinations.

Many thanks in advance.

Hi ballgame. I would stick to L2 as the pup has already had the first. Two reasons, changing means an extra vaccination that isn’t needed and more importantly for me, L4 has a much higher risk of adverse reaction from my understanding. There are some Facebook groups discussing these reactions if you do a search. I’m sure someone will come along with more details on this.

At the practice where I work we only give L4 to pups whose owners plan to take them to mainland Europe in the future (or, reluctantly, to those pups who have already been given L4 by a previous vet) where the extra serovars covered by L4 are much more of a problem. Otherwise we give them L2 as has been the norm for decades. If you decide to give L4 your pup will need two more injections instead of just one, resulting in possible over-vaccination problems.

Agree with both the above comments. 
I wouldn't consider starting again with l4 u are risking over vaccination and the l4 does appear to carry more risks . I would stick with what has already been done.
When it comes to next year u can research more about vaccinations and decide what u want to do then about all the vaccines
Pleased u managed to get your pup before the rules changed

I would stick with L2.

The L4 covers strains we don't have in the UK and what with more adverse reactions to it than L2 its not for me.
Most vets stock L2, if yours doesn't find a vet who does with the same brand. Dont start over

Just s thought. Are they saying they want to redo all the vaccinations and include lepto 4?
Or are they prepared to just give 2 if u decline 4 ?

I don't give either of the lepto jabs, because it's not a core vaccine in other parts of the world (north America) - no puppy in the US is given lepto routinely. You'd have to specially request it because it was something you were worried about (just like the Lyme vaccine) so the vast majority of dogs and puppies don't get it at all (and they have no higher incidence of lepto there than we do here - go figure - they do still have it) and even when it is given, the vet wouldn't give it at the same time as the other vaccines, to reduce the risk of reactions. They would give it later and separately.

Either lepto vaccine only lasts about 6-9 months as shown in research, it is only effective against a small number of serovars (2 in lepto 2 and 4 in lepto 4) - when there are about 280 odd lepto serovars in the world - and it is the part of the vaccine with the highest risk of side effects.

So I just do DHP and insist on that to my vet. Don't forget that you employ your vet and can ask for what you want. They don't have to agree to give it to you but there are plenty other vets in the world who will, and you don't have to see the same vet for vaccinations that you see for everything else...

In your circumstances, you should either give the Lepto 2 or no lepto at all. But definitely not Lepto 4, because that will involve restarting vaccines from scratch and an extra round of everything... You can phone around to find a vet who stocks lepto 2 if your regular vet doesn't.

That was my worry 1234 that the vet could be heading to restartall the vaccines

>.......and her vet (an old school sage like type character) says that there should be no need to go for lepto 4 if you’ve already stared a lepto 2 course of vaccination

Without remotely being a vet, I'd have to agree with your sister's vet!!   FWIW.   If the puppy has already had a Lepto 2 vaccination, I see no reason to 'start again'.  Mine have always been fine with Lepto 2 and there have been some negs about the Lepto 4.   And yes, is this vet wanting to restart ALL the vaccination given.   This is why I didn't give my puppies vaccination before being sold.   All too often vets do want to start again.  Mine went to their new homes by around 10 weeks, with their new owners told to get them to their vet within 48 hours, at which point vaccination could be started.  And of course they were warned NOT to put them on the ground off their property.

I get the L2 done as a pup but only because their ability to survive the infection would be very low at such a young age.  After that I don't revaccinate for lepto.   My sister's vet tried to get her to re start vaccination for L4 after the breeders vet gave the first L2 jab.  Annoyingly, it wasn't because they couldn't it was because they wouldn't and seemingly ignoring the "first do no harm" principle wrt over vaccinating.   She found another vet that would give the second L2 jab and then changed to that vet permanently.

>I don't give either of the lepto jabs, because it's not a core vaccine in other parts of the world (north America)

It doesn't matter what is considered core in the US unless you live there. Leptospirosis is a core vaccine in the UK. The WSAVA doesn't list it as being core because it doesn't exist in all countries, in the same way that it doesn't list rabies as being a core vaccine even though it's mandatory in many countries.

It's up to the individual whether or not they use the Lepto vaccination of course, but given how many RATS there are, everywhere, I see it as being very foolish not to take advantage of vaccination to prevent a puppy or adult, from picking up Leptospirosis.    We had rats visibly around here a few years ago, and as I'd let boosters lapse with mine, which I do after around 7 years, I took them in to have their Lepto shots brought utd.   Using L.2.

> Are they saying they want to redo all the vaccinations and include lepto 4?

If a pup has had a DHP/L2 injection (under 10 weeks old), and the new vet wants to give L4 instead, it would have its second DHP plus L4, and then a second L4 four weeks later. So three injections instead of two.

I wanted to know what the exactly the pup already had and what the vet was proposing as it could end up with 3 lots of dhp plus 2 l4 having already had a l2 . Especially if the vet isn't using the same make of vaccines
I've heard of some funny things being suggested if the vet decides to start all over from the beginning

>given how many RATS there are, everywhere

Rats are everywhere. Despite that there are not more dogs with lepto in North America, where they don't give lepto jabs, than here. Go figure. I can guarantee they have rats in the US

My dogs are not vaccinated for lepto and we have had 2 rat nests in the yard in the last 3 years (both dealt with - but it took some trying and different methods!) and no probs... We even had a litter of pups with a pen out there in the daytime whilst we were dealing with a rat nest - we were always supervising pups of course. No probs.

Even if a dog DOES get lepto the vast majority of cases can be successfully treated with ABs. And the only dog I've known personally who's got it, was a dog which was fully vaccinated including lepto jabs - he got it because it was one of the serovars not covered by the vaccine.

Honestly it's a worthless vaccine and I really don't know why vets in the UK can't think independently and decide to stop using it unless an owner is really concerned and wants it. I just feel like vets get brainwashed into doing things the way they are told to do them, and they don't question it enough. (This goes for a lot of healthcare stuff.) It's left for clued up pet owners to do their own research and pick through stuff and most people just don't do that.

https://www.lepto.co.uk/vaccination-regime  this is lengthy but is informative. Not for or against just giving information and is.uk

"It's up to the individual whether or not they use the Lepto vaccination of course, "

As stated!   But why would you risk playing with fire.     Is there a stat (bound to be ) re Leptospirosis in N.American dogs?  

I'll stick to what works for me - and of course, you with what works for you

Sure, of course there are papers - but they don't support your position at all.

See here: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.230.11.1657?fbclid=IwAR01FJhNQNK34iP-a_9Zk1vayXYnBmIQQb6KPxj-39eE1tDuWnymz8TA2PA

In that paper, 24.9% of HEALTHY dogs in MI had been exposed to lepto - but none were ill. This is because most infections are subclinical and the dog recovers without the owner even knowing they were ill. Disease is rare - only 1:3000 of INFECTED dogs develop the disease.

This paper: https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.2005.66.1780?fbclid=IwAR1zlt_9IXGs7cVEhs1VYdLxCV9NSNZRFFxbj6ookMjsZck7fnchML4bCR8  Shows that only some dogs still had immunity just 16 weeks after a lepto vaccination.

I can't see how giving the vaccine related to the highest risk of side effects, which is not even effective for 4 months in that study, and only effective against 4 out of 280 odd serovars - and when most dogs recover from lepto by themselves and the vast majority of other dogs recover with ABs, makes any sense at all. But... I'm not a sheep... and I think for myself and do my own research. What independent research have you done, MamaBas, which supports the position taken by your vet?

It's important to weigh up the risks with any vaccine.  Lepto is still very rare in the UK, not all rats are infected with it.   I think reported cases are somewhere between 50 and 150 each year, 9.5 million dogs in the UK.  My vet hasn't had an incidence in the past 24 months and I am in gun/working dog territory so those more at risk.   The vaccine doesn't stop the dog being infected, just helps them to cope with it, the vaccine does not give immunity for 12 months.   ABs are given to infected animals.  So on balance, it's an easy one for me, my breed isn't working/gun dog, we are rural but he doesn't drink from stagnant pools either.  I consciously don't vaccinate for these reasons.  If everyone does their own risk assessment then we will make the best decision for our dogs.

>Honestly it's a worthless vaccine and I really don't know why vets in the UK can't think independently and decide to stop using it unless an owner is really concerned and wants it.

Honestly, this is one of the most irresponsible remarks I've ever read in all my years on this forum. Vets do 'think independently' and realise, when they're treating animals who have contracted an avoidable zoonosis, putting their owners' health at risk as well, that lepto vaccination is far from worthless. Our practice treats a handful of cases each year, and the local rivers are renowned for being high risk to water-sportsmen and anglers. In fact most people who work their gundogs for a living are more likely to request their dogs are vaccinated against lepto than against any of the other diseases. They also have experience of its importance.

That might be your opinion and experience, JG, it's not mine.

>when they're treating animals who have contracted an avoidable zoonosis

You do realise that it is very difficult to diagnose lepto as opposed to many other diseases?

See: https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/leptospirosis-in-dogs-the-disease-and-how-to-test-for-it

"Does the DNA-PCR test always work?

The DNA-PCR is an excellent test, but it has limitations. Most importantly, the DNA-PCR test must be done before the dog is given antibiotics. Leptospira are easily killed by antibiotics, and even small doses can make it difficult to detect infection using DNA-PCR. The test is most useful in the early stages of moderate to severe disease, when large numbers of bacteria are present. Dogs that have been sick for a long time or have only mild signs of illness may be difficult to diagnose by DNA-PCR due to the small numbers of bacteria present.

In some cases, dogs that are truly infected may give a negative result on the DNA-PCR test (false negative). This is especially common when antibiotics are given before the test is done. It is important to remember that a negative result does not rule out infection. If leptospirosis is suspected and the DNA-PCR test is negative, further testing must be done to confirm infection. This usually means doing the microscopic agglutination test (MAT).
In very rare cases, the DNA-PCR may be positive even when true infection is not present (false positive). It usually occurs in dogs that have been in contact with another type of Leptospira, one that does not cause disease. These dogs are not ill and usually have unremarkable routine test results. For this reason, routine testing should always be completed before testing for leptospirosis by DNA-PCR.

What is the MAT test for leptospirosis?

The MAT or microscopic agglutination test detects the presence of antibodies against Leptospira in a dog's blood. If the level of antibodies (called a titer) is high enough or can be shown to be rising over time, then infection is confirmed.

Does the MAT always work?

The MAT is an excellent test, but it also has limitations. It is a slower test than the DNA-PCR test and it may take several days to get results back from the laboratory. Sometimes a follow-up test (called a convalescent sample) is needed to confirm infection, which delays the diagnosis even further. Also, test results can be inconclusive if the patient has been previously vaccinated for leptospirosis, or if antibiotics were given early in the course of disease before the immune system had time to start producing antibodies."

Any vet who is finding a lot of DIAGNOSED lepto cases is a rare vet indeed. I even asked my own vet, who hadn't had a CONFIRMED case in 5 years. Lepto symptoms can present as a wide variety of different alternative diagnoses and the tests available are flawed and problematic. So it's simply a mistruth to state that vets can just look at their own practices and how many cases they get... 

Of course, vets who are already biassed in favour of giving lepto vaccinations can decide that things are lepto when they are probably not...

Here are the official recorded numbers of lepto cases in the UK: https://www.lepto.co.uk/recorded-cases

Great Britain actually.

That's the link I posted above . It also gives the number of cases where side effects from the vaccine have been recorded. . Actually thought us a pretty good article giving different sides for consideration

This is the problem with sending a puppy off with 1 vaccination done, the vet nearly always wants to restart the course whether it's L2 or L4, they never seem to have the combination vaccines from the same place as the first vet did. If it's at all possible (and you are allowed to travel for reasonable purpose) I would try to get the puppy back to the first vet for the second shot rather than start a whole new course, and I would definitely avoid L4.

> But... I'm not a sheep... and I think for myself and do my own research. What independent research have you done, MamaBas, which supports the position taken by your vet?

@ 1 - 4     Of course I don't spend my day pulling up articles to support my views - I assume, rightly or wrongly that a vet I feel I can trust will give me all the information I need, depending on the circumstances.   This is what I pay him for.

I really don't see the point coming on here if I'm going to find myself in yet another argument.   Life is too short.     I've already said I'll stick with what works for me - and of course, you with what works for you.   I do not welcome being called names (a sheep).

LucyDogs, I agree, I used to want breeders to start off the vacs but now I much prefer to have control of it myself.

Hi All

Many thanks for the responses, I hope this thread will serve others in the future as I have no doubt this question is something many new owners are faced with.
The vet had originally told us that she'd recommend starting a new course of vaccinations using Lepto 4.
I queried this (as politely as possible - I think!?) to which she digressed and said it was entirely our choice (which is stating the obvious).
I am thankful for all your views and hope you all have a great New Year, I think we all need it.

Best

MamaBas:  > <br />I really don't see the point coming on here if I'm going to find myself in yet another argument.   Life is too short.

Well said MamaBas. We all have different points of view and shouldn't feel the need to justify everything.  Freedom of speech and choice not a 'verbal boxing ring'.

My Vet has always used Nobivac DHP L4.  I've used it for years, never had a new owner concerned or have troble finding a local Vet to them that didn't agree to
give it (I give owners the heads up not to let a new course begin which would increase the Vet Bill for no reason) and I will continue to use it.
Everyone to their own.

It's not the vets bill that would  be my primary worry but the over vaccinations and increased risks .
Unfortunately  I've known of too many who have been offered a new course as their vet didn't use the same manufacture and accepted it
Many  new owners have know knowledge about vaccines above what their vet suggests . Neither do they realise there are options .
I didn't for many years but am pleased that I have been able to research and .are what I consider educated choices .

That's aside to any thoughts about lepto

going off topic slightly what is the score with adult dogs receiving first vaccinations /vaccination history unknown?  I am just being curious as I remember taking a rescue dog belonging to a relative and the dog having to have 2 sets of injections- puzzled really as I would have thought with puppies they only had 2 to cover the possibility of maternal antibodies ruining first set - or have I got it wrong?

Lepto, if given, has to have 2 injections. The rest only needs 1.

Yes. The only vaccinations which require a 2nd shot are the lepto vaccines. Like the Covid 19 vaccine(!) it needs one shot and then a 2nd a few weeks later. After the initial sequence of two, it needs only one each year to remain current. (Well, it actually wears out after only 4 months for many dogs but let's forget that for now.)

If a dog's vaccination history is unknown, vets will typically restart all vaccinations from scratch. With the lepto vaccines, that means they give the two in that way.

Lepto aside, a dog only needs ONE shot of DHP (distemper, hepatitis, parvo) over the age of 20wks (when maternal antibodies will definitely not interfere) to be immunised. (There are a very small number of non-responders so if you wanted to be extra sure you could then titre test.)

Came across an interesting Lepto fact doing some research for a Diploma.

Many dogs seem to get Leptospirosis within 3 months of the vaccine (a Swedish study showed that of 251 Leptospirosis cases 95% were vaccinated).  Also confirmed in a study in 1979 by Jean Driscoll, that 100% of dogs that contracted Lepto had been vaccinated within 3 months.  Also vaccinated dogs can transmit the virus. 

It's one thing being worried about the adverse side effects and extent of immunity but this is quite alarming.