Could i ask for some advice please. I put my bitch into pup with a friends stud dog. He said he'd like a puppy so that was effectively the stud fee. Nothing was in writing as I was happy with that.
He's now decided he doesn't want a puppy but a stud fee which is the equivalent of the price of a puppy. They are sprocker puppies and are currently between £1500-£2000. Is the stud fee really the price of a puppy in today's prices?
Many thanks

A stud fee is whatever you and the owner of the dog agreed. In this case a puppy or equivalent in money.  I have no idea how much you will be able to sell your pups for but whatever it is he will be entitled to the money.  There is no "Rule" for a stud fee. Its whatever you and the stud dog owner agree on.
As I doubt there are any signed stud contracts in reality you have no agreement but you and he made a "Gentleman's" agreement and it should be adhered too.

In my breed Stud fee as far as I can tell has always been the price of a puppy, and only seems fair.

Mind you my breed has never been silly prices.

Last year my pups were £850, and that was the most usual price, from fully health tested parents and Champion bloodlines.

Currently my breed is £900 from most breeders.

I have seen some suspicious adverts, possibly fake, unregistered for a lot more.

I would be concerned that if he has changed is mind but still takes a pup he doesn't want he will sell on .
That would mean pup has more changes and u have no control over who eventually he rehomes pup with .
I know.thay wasn't your question as others have answered that but I would also bear that in mind

Thats a lot for a mix breed puppy I must say. Are you charging the new covid inflated prices?
This is why I would always advise have it in writing when using a stud dog. If they want a puppy is that 1st or 2nd pick after you, if they opt to not have a puppy what the stud fee will be. Is his stud dog advertised anywhere with price?

In the past, stud fees used to be the cost of one puppy.    However not so now.  I've noticed stud fees being ask are increasing, but are in general nowhere near the current stupid cost of a puppy, KC registered or not, and purebred or not!!

I think you should probably pay the stud fee, perhaps once you start getting income from the sale of these puppies - after all if this stud dog owner had taken a puppy in lieu, she may well have sold it on .... so you'll have avoided that!

Fix a price in your mind (and don't go by the crazy prices being asked, and presumably got, for mutts) and pay her off.

I hope you are not going to ask the kind of prices currently being asked for a mutt.    And it's a pity you are adding to all this mix-breeding too.

It is never a good idea to give someone a puppy as a stud fee. These are two separate transactions - the use of his stud dog and the sale of a puppy - and they should remain separate, for all kinds of reasons. A long time passes between a mating and a puppy going home.

Agree a price with a stud owner and get them to sign an agreement. You can find stud agreements online or ask others to see theirs.

If a stud owner wants a puppy, that is then a separate negotiation. You can agree to put them on your list, but they will pay for that puppy separately and it is a separate transaction than the stud fee was.

As for your current situation, you can't force him to take a puppy if he doesn't want one. That would not be in the puppy's best interests and would be unethical. And yes, it is pretty reasonable to ask for the price of a puppy for a stud fee usually. Given that you never got anything in writing and that you made the mistake of telling him he could have a puppy as a stud fee, you just have to suck it up now and give him the cost of one puppy for your stud fee.

Next time, agree a fee, pay it and get a contract signed when you use a stud. Whether or not you then sell them a puppy is a completely separate transaction.

My friend's that have stud dogs &/or breed always use stud receipts which clearly state either stud(& any return matings if no puppies produced) fee or what puppy etc if the puppy re wanted. Signed by both parties of course & each party keeps a copy.

This is a binding contract & stops either party changing their minds & making a demand.

One of my friends used a dog & paid a quite high stud fee. The stud dog owner tried to get more money out of them when the bitch had 10 puppies by demanding £100 for each puppy produced, they had forgotten the stud receipt & obviously never got any more money from my friend's.

This is the problem when people naively breed with a mentor to guide them through the correct procedures

My breeder/stud dog owner friends all would rather pay/receive the stud fee & have the stud owner buy a puppy if they want one from the litter

PS I am just wondering... where is your reluctance to give him the money from one puppy? If you were happy to give him a puppy (which you would otherwise sell for that amount) why not sell the puppy to someone else instead and get the fee for it that way, which you then pay him?

I'm struggling to see how you are losing out by paying him money instead of giving him a puppy, when you then have a puppy to sell to someone else...

>Thats a lot for a mix breed puppy I must say. Are you charging the new covid inflated prices?

It's actually well below the Covid prices; spaniel crossbreeds have been advertised for double that.

It's cheap compared to the silly prices for some crosses. £2-3,000 is not unusual looking at the prices on the internet

I was happy to give them a puppy if thats usual protocol. If he wanted a stud fee instead, I would have asked the fee prior, and I for sure wouldn't pay £1800 for a stud fee.

> I was happy to give them a puppy if thats usual protocol. If he wanted a stud fee instead, I would have asked the fee prior, and I for sure wouldn't pay £1800 for a stud fee.

It's the exact same thing though? You sell a pup for £1800 and give them the money, or you giver them a pup. If you've agreed to give them a pup and then don't want to give them the value of a pup when they change their mind you risk the stud dog owner taking a pup and selling it on, nobody would want that, you wan to choose your own puppy buyers.

Whether you give him a pup or the price of the pup the fee is exactly the same price. As you both agreed to the pup on the first instance, I'm going to assume that you don't have the money equivalent right now. Ask them nicely since they changed the form of payment would they be willing to wait until after the pups are sold? On the basis you wouldn't have used the stud if you knew to start with that you didn't have the money upfront.

As for sprocker pups they are usually more expensive due to them being very popular in shooting fields and usually bred from proven working stock. Where that applies to this particular litter I can't say.

My partner shoots and is waiting for a sprocker pup and has been for a year. From his choosen kennel there £1500 but that's quite a well known one in the shooting world.

How less complicated all this was before puppy prices went through the roof!   I paid for, or took a stud fee, for the Service.  I never got into all this puppy in lieu of a stud fee.   I used a contract, based on the one I had when I first used the American stud dog which basically stated the fee and that that included a repeat mating should there be no puppies from that Service - and further that in our eyes, only two puppies did not constitute a litter = a repeat mating was offered.

Again when you start selling your puppies, use the first income to pay their stud fee and get shot of these people.  Second would be payment of any veterinary fees associated with the whelping (C.Section etc.).   And then be thankful that they haven't taken one of these puppies, and sold it on!!!

I think that's very breed dependant.

Even some silly priced breeds charging puppy price.

Breeds like my own, the price of a puppy is fair, especially with the cost of health testing being as much as a stud fee.

It's very hard sometimes to find a fully health tested male.

It's a bit catch 22, male dog owners are not going to spend the money to test unless they have reasonable likelihood of their dog being used.

Bitch owners won't generally approach owners of untested dogs.

I wanted to use a male, asked his owner to test, and he came back with great DNA, Elbow and eye test results, but a Hip score of 44!!!

All good scores his mother's side, but not much on sires side, though sire had a good score.

In breeds that have 4 or more pups price of puppy fee seems fair, especially where their use may be very sporadic.

MamaBas:> How less complicated all this was before puppy prices went through the roof!

Think it has always been complicated unless a written contract is put in place and even then, I was a victim of a Stud Dog Service scam.

Most Stud Dog owners expect payment at time of mating and would never consider waiting for payment until a litter arrives.

My girl didn't take on this occassion and I informed the Stud Dog Owner who assured me a repeat mating would be available at the
appropriate time.  7 months later I contacted her every day over a 5 day period to arrange the repeat mating.  The last phone conversation I had I was told it wasn't possible as she was in Spain on holiday yet the ring tone suggested in UK.

£850 down the swanee!

I have been monitoring Puppy / Stud Dog Service Pricing for my chosen breed and it seems stud fee is in line with puppy pricing.

> be thankful that they haven't taken one of these puppies, and sold it on!!!

So true.  Something I have highlighted previously on this Forum and absolutely slated for when I sold my last litter!

Working strain cocker stud fees have remained the same throughout COVID and nowhere near the price of a pup (£250-450)

This is what I meant. If he said he wanted a stud fee then I would have paid him there and then. I think he knew he didn't want a puppy all along but has moved the goal post and now wants the cash equivalent of a puppy which isn't quite in line with a standard stud fee. I just put it down to live and learn.

That might be useful when your choosing a stud but I don't think it's relevant now that the stud has been used.

The stud was chosen and used and the agreed payment was 1 puppy. The stud owner has now asked for the payment method to be changed from a puppy to the cash equivalent of the value of the puppy. The price value hasn't been changed from what she agreed but the form of payment. it's annoying i understand but the value agreed has stayed the same.

Stud fees aren't set by anyone other than the breeder and just because X down the road charges Y doesn't mean B has to match it. If B wants to charge Z then it's up to the Dam owner if they want to use X or B. She knew the value upfront and went with this stud.

Lack of a written contract does not mean that there wasn't one, verbal contracts are just as binding legally but they don't get up held anywhere near as much because they're difficult/impossible to prove. If the stud owner has any texts, emails ext of a puppy being the agreed fee that can be used as evidence in a small claims court.

Should just sell the stud dog owners puppy, pay the case and be done with it. Put this down to experience and use a different stud dog on future.

Thank you

To be honest, it is much better that they are not taking a puppy, as you will know where your puppy is going.

Also with the new Lucy's law young pups are not allowed to be sold by third parties, so if the stud owner doesn't want a puppy to keep for themselves, a puppy in lieu would cause difficulties for them to sell it under 6 months.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/lucys-law-spells-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-puppy-farming

> Also with the new Lucy's law young pups are not allowed to be sold by third parties

This could be why they have changed their mine, if they had planned to have the puppy purely too sell on they would fall fowl of that law if they did. As it would then be considered a commercial 3rd party sell.

> Also with the new Lucy's law young pups are not allowed to be sold by third parties

They still are being though, our local free paper has had lots of single young pups, bought, peed in the house, sold for profit Usual excuses, don't have time for them, kid allergic.

> They still are being though, our local free paper has had lots of single young pups, bought, peed in the house, sold for profit Usual excuses, don't have time for them, kid allergic.

Your still allowed to rehome your own puppy if you no longer want it, it's just commercial 3rd party sales that's banned so you now can't get in a puppy with the intention of reselling it. Although I have no doubt that dealers will just pretend to be owners rehoming now.