Hi, has anyone had dealings with a behaviour consultant, and was the outcome successfull?
I mentioned in another posting (Terv Barking) about my Mini Schnautzer barking and running up to strangers when she is off the lead. She also barks constantly when on it! but as she is restrained she is not a threat to anyone who is cautious of dogs. She has barked like this since I got her at age 9 weeks, and I have tried all the suggestions which are mentioned on this board, but nothing is working. She is a fab little dog apart from this one area, and although she is barking furiously, I know she is not really a threat to anyone. I have e mailed a behaviour consultant who has been in touch to tell me he can deal with this problem for a fee of £45 for 2-3 hours, and, follow up phone advice if required. I would pay whatever it costs to sort out this problem as I dont want my dog to always be on a lead when out, but what do others think. (I am hopeless at making decisions) I would appreciate some advice from anyone who has used a behaviour consultant for a dog with similar problems.

Animal Behaviour consultant or behaviourist, therpapist or any thing like that is not a recognised qualification, things like UKRCB or APDT APDC are like trade bodies made up of the same people to promote an air of legitimacy for themselves, bit of a classroom cowboy sort of thing. Personaly I would not go near them.

Hi, just as a matter of interest if you feel that way about Animal behaviourist, what would you suggest for behaviour problems like aggression etc. If you talk to a vet they refer you to the behaviourist.

Hi Sandie, yes some vets send clients to behaviourists and the behaviourist refers their clients to vets, never ending flow of money between them. There is a complete misconception that the only thing available is a behaviourist, as I said I have nothing whatsoever against a behaviourist who gives a contract stateing the eventual outcome.If a vet sends you to a behavioiurist the the aggression is not a veterinary problem it is an obedience problem, except in dogs bred for fighting, in which case it would be unatural for them not to fight. I have read on another site recently that David Appleby was called (and of course paid for ) to a GSD for aggerssion, this is what happend; He glared at GSD, and provoked him into a real state of hysteria, but GSD went and hid behind owner. Still, Appleby decided that he was dangerous, not to be trusted and advised owner to have him put to sleep!! That dog went on to reassure many people who were scared of dogs....there was nothing wrong with it.
I had a trainer with my first bitch after 9 months of so called positive classes which were totaly uesless and simply making her badly behaved, when they are misbehaving you reward them with what they call a distraction, all that does is make them worse becuase they rewarded for misbehaviour, people make fortune out of running never ending training classes like that, as can be seen on here. After reading Darrens post I contacted his trainer, I had one once befor and everything went is no dog could have a problem so I am seeing him a week on Sat and go from there, I mean maybe I dont like him or his methods but I have a very good experience of trainers, see how itgoes them.

Hi Yapyap, where do you find these trainer's, I am interested in finding one who will work on a one to one basis with my springer, she is not really bad but I do need help with her before she becomes to difficult.

To be quite honest Sandie you find them with great difficulty and if wasn't for Darrens post jumping out at me like lightening streak I wouldn't have got a lead, I will call the trainer today and see if it's ok if I can send you his email, is that ok? I will get yours from here.

Hi Sandie

I had a dog trainer come to see me yesterday about my amercan cocker spaniel puppy. She barks at other people a lot and if any visitors come here she barks and growls at them, she also barks at people in the street, also she is on the couch with me all the time. He was excellent and explained why she does what she does and how she sees the world around her. He has advised me what to do in order to deter unwanted behaviour and althuogh they are unpleasant and I feel horrible doing them they DO work. If i carry on doing them every time she exhibits the unwanted behaviour it should take only a few weeks for her to stop it altogether.

The trainer dog was recommended to me by my daughter who has an 8 month old Doberman who attends his dog training classes every Saturday. He has 4 dogs of his own and owns kennels. His own dog is called alpha and she is so well trained he doesnt even have to speak he just does hand signals and she does what he wants. He was expensive and charged me £50 for 1 and a half hours. He ran through her diet, her histroy, where she sleeps eats etc and advised me on all of these things. He explained why the dog behaves in this way and what she is thinking and how she views me. He was very good and I now understand my dog better and know what I am doing will help her settle and take her proper place in the house not the one she had adopted. I believe he charges £40 per visit to come home and train yuor dog for you, he also will take the dog for 10 days and train it and bring it back to you for a fee.

I think it was money well spent as she is a puppy and if I can get her to be obedient now it will be worth it. I know what he has asked me to do works, its not nice but it will get the desired result and my dog will be happier in the long run. I have a contact number for him, if you want it let me know and I will let you have it.

What things do you have to do that are unpleasant? Are they unpleasant for you or the dog?

I think they are unpleasant for both of us. All teh things I have to do are aversion therapy. you need to know more in depth what is going on. My dog is very clingy with me and follows me everywhere - she barks and growls at other people and he has told me this is because she thinks that she and I are on the same level in the hierarchy and she thinks she must protect me. She has to learn that I am the leader so she doesnt have to be. She has taken on this role but is mentally and physically unable to fulfill it so she barks and growls at everyone else but doesnt approach them while she is doing this so she is not being aggressive, just warning them to stay back and she thinks I am her baby and she is the mum. But this is not as it should be. She must learn that she doesnt need to do this and that I am the mum not her baby. Because of this and to make her understand that she is not the head honcho I cannot allow her to sit on the couch with me as she will think we are both on the same level so to deter her when she tries to get on the couch I have a plastic bottle with some loose change in it and I have to shake it every time - it certainly works, but I dont like doing it. He told me that for all noise behaviour ie barking in appropriately I should get lots of plastic cups fill them with an inch of water and put them everwhere so they are within easy reach and every time she barks or growls inappropriately I have to throw a cup of water at her at the same time scrunching the cup and throwing it down and saying no. He says that if you shout at a dog when it is barking (which is what I was doing) she thinks you are barking with her so she barks even more. I have not tried this yet as I dont have the equipment ie plastic cups but I will put it to the test as I want her to be good when visitors come not bark and growl her head off at them. I have tried the plastic bottle theory and she now comes in and sits by me on the floor quietly. She still tries to get on the couch but only sometimes and I use the bottle then. Hopefully this will only continue for a couple of weeks and she will stop trying to get on the couch.

I haven't seen your dog or her behaviour, but my first reaction to the throwing water at her would be that this is an aggressive reaction coming from you, rather than an effect from the visitor (or whatever) which could makeher more unsettled and less confident that you are in control and on her side.

Have you tried a calm, soothing, "sshhhhh" sound, while calmly stroking her and ignoring the visitors? Showing her that you aren't bothered and that they are insignificant?

Just another point of view to be borne in mind. :)

I wish there was a way of guaranteeing a certain result in every case! If so, all our children would pass all their exams with top marks and all be model citizens! However, in the real world and dealing with living entities, each one is different and a guaranteed result is simply not possible. People can guarantee to do their best - but if they're honest they can't guarantee success.

Anyone who says they can guarantee they can cure a particular problem (without creating another if they try a method which doesn't suit that particular dog) should be viewed with great caution, in my opinion.

Oh it's much more than that Jennigeni, you don't pay anything except travell costs between assessment and the first lesson ( seemingly one week later ). and if relevant you get a foundation program on assesment day if your suited to him and he's suited to take you,
Then the first lesson, if 4 days after that you notify him in writing that you wish to discontinue then you dont pay anything except his expenses which you have already paid anyway.
If between that day and before the commencment of the second lesson you then decied to cancell you pay a small amount as stated if you want to continue then thats it. I am sure there will be some who think that is an unfair contract, try before you buy, what maybe I should have emphasised more is that this is not simply an obedience course it is educational, he teaches you not just theory of the dogs psycholgy you can see in real life how the dog responds, as best as I can explain it, I suppose in other words you know what you are doing and why the dog is responding, especialy as the dog is becoming closer to you as Darrens has done. Ask Darren I haven't even seen the guy yet although to be honest the hysteria all the loosers shouted at Darrens succes I would think he is to intellegent to bother visiting us anymore, why should he he has a perfect dog.
It's the obvious difference between someone who knows what they are doing and someone who pretends they know, the pros and the cons so to speak.

YapYap where exacltyl did you read this about David Appleby? I would be MOST surprised if he did anything like this but if he did then he had a good reason.

Tell me where i can read about this please ? As I would like to know more.

Also a vet will recommend a reputable behaviourist because he knows the B. will have a track record of success. YOu can't argue with that, sorry!!! And that doesn't mean they always have perfect results - it may be that the owner ends up with a better dog, or one that does 't have separation anxiety, but it may mean at the end of the day too, that the odd problem cannot be solved. That is because they are not miracle workers, and because they don't have a magic wand. Can a doctor cure all illnesses? No, but he does his best.

Many dog trainers are fabulous and really know their stuff, and some will have learnt about behaviour, but there are cases that need specific behaviour help and modification, with knowledge about how a dog's brain works. I have a friend who was in the army, he is now a behaviourist, and he deals specifically with severe aggression cases. And amazinglyl he is successful in many of them.

YOu can't just shut a dog/s behavour up with certain devices, you need to know more. For instance if a dog is stopped from growlng because it is scared of people, does that mean the dog is then able to cope with people? Or does it in fact render the dog a ticking bomb who will give no warning?

Lindsay

you can read it [link http://www.k9media.net/dogchat/viewtopic.php?t=390&start=80]here[/link] at the bottom of the page

HTH

Thanks, Kirisox.

That was I would say hearsay, or someone making up porkies. It was'nt a proper report, just someone who dislikes behaviourists :(

I am quite sure it is not true :) - or if it was, the whole story has not been given.

Lindsay

Hi there,

I think the above posts probably go to show that mixed feelings about behavourists. The problem seems to be that there is little in the way of formal control in the industry. If you go to your doctor you know that he/she has the proper qualifications. You go to your vetinary sugeon and again the same. Go to a behavourist and they are not required to have any qualifications at all :(

Of course most behavourists are good people with the desire to help and have put in many years of study with those courses that are available and have the practical experience. Sadly as in any industry there will always be the few who are profiteering or simply not experienced to offer any reasonable advice or worse a mis diagnosis. A friend who I walk with a few times a week had exactly the same experience as yapyap (not Mr Appleby i should say). Apparantly his dog was aggressive and untrainable and should be put down. He booted out the behavourist and got a second opinion - they now live happily ever after.

You should probably be aware that the methods differ from person to person. There is no set method of dealing with any problem. This is a good thing since each of our dogs are unique but make sure that you are happy with the method they propose and it achieves the results you want.

I can say that my Max had exactly that problem (amongst others) and used to bark furiously at other dogs. It was not malicious or aggresive. He mostly did it when the other dogs lost interest in playing. But we simply couldnt walk with other owners since after a few mins the barking was endless, embarassing and mistaken by some owners as aggression. Following his obidience training a simply no and that stopped that problem. I dont know if you have done any obidience work with her but it solved my little loud speaker on legs problem.

So with behavourists/trainers/etc buyer beware is my advice :) but I do hope this chap can help you though. Best of luck :)

I totally agree there are some very bad so -called behaviourists out there :) but sadly many have a bad name because of the imcompetent ones :(

There has been a movement in recent years to tighten up and standardise the industry - but if you look at say, www.ukrcb.co.uk and look at the "about us" and "how to join" then anyone can see that there is a good solid mixture of hands on with a variety of dogs, plus proven track record, plus ongoing assessment, plus knowledge of the theoretical side too.

The APDT was set up by John Fisher and members decided to voluntarily ban check chains, and they are primarily trainers, not behaviourists, although some will have a behavioural interest :) I am a subscriber to the APDT and I the ones i am in contact with are very dedicated and experienced. Some do working trials, obedience, etc - and many just train pet dogs! You would not believe some of the very difficult cases they have to work on, and I have to say too that a llot depends on the intelligence and understanding of the owners. A good behaviourist willl never get the best out of an owner who doesn't follow what has been recommended.

There is also the APBC which again was set up originally by John Fisher to again attempt to standardise the industry.

There are always those within an organisation who may not come up to scratch, but for example with the APDT, they have spot checks, and one of the conditions of membership is that they must continue to learn and attend training seminars, etc

There are a few behavioural organisations, and also individual b.'s who have had minimum training and feel they knowmore than they do. There is one particular organisation I have a great dislike of, but suppose I had beter not name names

Lindsay

John Fisher is the one who invented the training discs, you get someone to throw them and they frighten the dog so it runs to you, this is how to train it for recall, the 'modern' way. I have seen over this couple of days a dog damaged by this method and is now on all kinds of treatment to attempt to get over it.
UKRCB is a limited liabilty company, its one time director was Martin Deeley, he resigned because of the bad repution they were getting, the fact that most of the people in it did not understand principles of dog training (as seen all over the web ) that was a couple of years ago. He is now a succesfull writer and has a column in a USA dog magazine, he is a pet dog trainer and was commishioned by a USA company to design an E collar, which he has done. He says he would use no other training aid ever again than an E collar, like the humane societies which have studied them he considers them the most humane and effective training aid in a reward based system that could ever exist. He is currently in USA where he he is one of the highly respected dog trainers there, he has no time for UKRCB.

Training discs I have seen used - to great effect, with the dog much more relaxed and controllable than he had been, so it was possible to give him far more freedom than before. A timid dog, he certainly wasn't scared by them!!!

Quite clearly something used to bluff to the inexperienced that this is a trraing method, it is not, below is a case,

" I have had some major problems with rescue Beardie 17 months chasing trucks and buses, now recently he has taken to snapping at both dogs and humans alike, He had a tooth out so was antibiotics thought this could be responsible for his recent hooliganism! Anyway to cut a long story short, yesterday I bought training discs, after reading "Think Dog" by John Fisher, used them for first time this morning just as instructed, problem is that after throwing them down for the first time, he went and cowered in a corner he now wont come near me, Im so upset, but dont know what I can do?"

Another case:
"My entire dog persisted in being a nuisance to visiting dogs, not aggressive but licking their ears until they dripped and the dogs got annoyed. After careful introduction of the discs he learnt to stop this behaviour and a peaceful life was restored with the dogs interacting normally."

Yap yap as I have mentioned before, results may depend on the intelligence of the owner :)

Discs are NOT meant to be thrown at the dog - whoever gave you that idea?! Heavens above!!!

Dogs are conditioned to the discs - and theu are primarily a simple signal of NON REWARD. I have seen them used by a twit totally wrongly, in the same way you have, but used CORRECTLY ;) they dont ever scare the dog. If they do, they have not been conditioned correctly, and should not be used.

Lindsay

Hi, When my pointer was four and half months it started to become a great battle to get him on the lead to take him out (he was good but suddendly started to snarl, show his teeth and bite when it came to put his lead either on or off. So we got a behaviourist for a 1 to 1 to come to the house(£40) and tell us where we had gone wrong or give us some advice. After 50 mins filling in forms re: diet, exercise, etc she picked him up by his collar and held him up (feet off ground) until he submissed (her words), at which point both my hubby and I were almost on the floor ourselves, he lay on the floor bearly moving until she left. Her opinion she did not like pointers anyway as they were dogs who would challenge at any opportunity and you and to let them know who was boss-she owned collies!!.
We then went to puppy socialisation classes(IMO waste of time) this trainer would say "let all dogs off the lead" so my little rascel would runover to a cute little bischon frise(spelling?) and want to play, he wanst nasty or bite but scared the living daylights out of the poor dog, still (so called) trainer said dont worry hes not nasty hes just a puppy, following week a german shepherd dog older than mine was there, so once again "let your dogs off lead" and she thought Max GSD would put Flynn (her words) in his place as older (alpha) dog and he would learn not all dogs are nice and want to play - sorrryyy! my dog buffed Max in the face with his paw and all hell let loose - max was scarting around a church hall howling and bellowing with Flynn loving every minute in hot persuit, he thought it was a great game.
Needless to say we didnt go back and began to think our dog would have to go free to a good home and all that!!
We went on a weeks holiday to decide if that was that (ie) we had tried our best to be good owners but it wasnt working out and would he would be a better off with other owners.
Booked him in a kennel not far from us that had just opened with a great guy who is an ex-raf dog handler who now runs Kennels,dog training,pet cremetorium,creche and agility (he is also one of those dare we say it - behaviourists!) and need i say more ; Flynn is a different dog - he does everything he says. On the other hand with me he is getting better day by day as apparently I had not been doing things right and giving out wrong messages to him. Now he will walk to heel, today he was very near perfect but as we got back to our Rd and I asked him to sit he didnt the first time but did the second. - tommorrow is another day and heres hoping!!. If you are a good dog owner (which of course most are) we will do the homework and extras to make our dogs sociable etc.
As for Flynn, he is 10mths today and he has my heart, hes my little buddy although he can be a "little git" at times ( hes still a puppy) and though we was naughty tonight and had his muzzle put on at 8pm .tonight for a 5min challenging session, he is now curled up on his blanks snoring and that is the best. In the morning he will try to climb into bed - and he will be allowed in for a couple of minutes snuggle then out and at em!! (for our run in the woods)

Hi Siouxie,

There are indeed many people who claim they are behavourists and some make an income from this. All dogs are entitled to proper care and many owners try this or that or one behavourist or another until the dog is tolally confused. There is no one pill to sort each problem but it depends on the problem, the dog and the owners as to which is the best way to treat it. There are many types of aggression and each has a different range of cures.

I like many others offer free advice for common training problems but when we get into aggression or dominance problems then I will only work from a referal from a vet. The VET is your first port of call and if they cannot cure the dog they will advise a well known behaviourist with a proven record. This is not some commercial pact in order to make money but in order to provide a proper cure that the owner, the vet and the behaviourist feel is the best way forward with a good chance of success.

If the owners are insured and because the behaviourist is working for the vet they will have the fees paid for apart from the first £40. We can spend a lot of time retraining a dog and is our experiance not worth something? £45 for 2 to 3 hours is cheap where most will charge £80 for the first 2 or 3 hours. We are not a charity though sometimes I feel that we are but would rather see a retrained dog than do nothing with the possibley that a child is attacked some time later.

I can say that most types of aggression are retrainable as this is from human training from choice or by accident. A dogs genitic rule is only to use ritualised style aggression against other dogs. I have just returned from Romaina where they have a massive Ferral dog roaming problem and all the dogs now are no longer under the infuence of domesticity have simply reverted to their genetic rule of ritualised aggression against other dogs. They do not form packs nor hunt as a pack they can only simply beg or scavenge for food as they have never learned the neccessary hunting skills.

We see many clients who have finally had to find a highly reputable behavourists and are prepared to pay anthing because others have failed them and where the problem only got worse.

Many thanks for all the replies on this subject. I am glad to say Shushti is behaving much better when out.
I started off with her on the lead and every time she barked (uneccessarily) I stopped and leaned right down and told her very firmly "no" and gently held her mouth closed > It took a few days but she is 100% better. There are times I dont scold her i.e. if it is another dog in the distance and I know she is just excited. If someone is approaching and I feel she may bark I stop, quietly tell her no and wait till the person passes by and then giver her a reward, (sometimes a titbit or sometimes just a pat)
She is a delightful dog but I am beginning to see she has a very strong personality and she just needs to be reminded she is not the boss of the house.
Now........ if I can just stop her eating cat pooh, duck pooh, rotten fruit, clumps of dirt, etc etc, life will be perfect, I suspect with this little dog life will never again be dull or mundane!!