Madforlabs:> nature says 50%

Absolutely, hope it all works out - our Labrador breed is amazing in every way so hey the fab bloodlines and temperament you mention he comes from will make a great sire to the Littter.

Doesn't this just confirm.that when breeding everything needs to be considered? Its not just shut the door everything isn't perfect but  look at the bigger picture .
If a breeder knows what they are doing they will work out what can be done safely to improve lines and.the gene pool .especially in breeds where the numbers are low .
Any breeding programme and yes hobby breeders do have or should have breeding programmes/ breeding plans , It may mean only the occasional  litter but its still a programme.imo, will take everything into consideration
Madforlabs has just confirmed that with her careful.consideration that may include using a carrier . Still to be decided
It also shows another reason why endorsements and support from the dogs breeder is so important and knowledge of the predessors too

You’re very right furriefriends. Good breeding is not just black and white in many areas. So many things need to be considered.

Furriefriends:> If a breeder knows what they are doing they will work out what can be done safely to improve lines and.the gene pool .especially in breeds where the numbers are low

Breeding Puppies from being a girl, I have probably had more breeding experience with varied animals than most over those 43 years.

Yes, I was breeding blindly of Health Testing all of these years ago and yes a suitable breeding dog was guaged by working ability but
these measurements by an experienced breeder such as myself, weren't far wrong.

Certain breeds are low in number for reasons of availability, suitability as dual purpose pets and temperament.  Then there are certain breeds who are preferred and higher in number for reasons of ticking all boxes whether pet or worker and certainly fit the bill as both.

The huge opposition highlighted that all testing must be carried out and that anything other than CLEAR results were unacceptable and certainly having a breeding dog who is hip & elbow scored on the ever changing  'border line of acceptability' was indefencable.

Well now,some of today's Posters have said' it's not the be all and end all'  Controversy at it's best so excuse me if I question everything.

masajackrussell:  > Good breeding is not just black and white in many areas. So many things need to be considered.

Brilliant...

> Brilliant...

Indeed. That’s why good breeders are so careful about who they lift endorsements for.

It is a very grey area in certain places. For me dna testing has to be done. Hips and elbows for breeds that have issues with them below the agreed standard. I’m fine with breeding from carriers as long as the dna tests are available from both parents so you can do so without producing affected puppies.

I suppose everyone has to have their own levels of what is acceptable and not everyone is going to agree with them. I do think there should be hard lines as to what is acceptable health wise for registration. Wouldn’t want to be the person responsible for creating those lines though.

I think you’ve got to consider the breed you’re working with as well. In a numerous breed it would have to be an extremely good dog to warrant using a carrier (IMO) when there are plenty of clears available to choose from.

In a numerically small breed it’s a much more difficult decision when the need to maintain diversity is much more pressing, because there maybe isn’t that much diversity to start with. Perhaps it’s worth using a carrier for the sake of a nice low COI.

If I wanted to use my Papillon boy, I’d want clear results for everything before I went ahead. Even if he was a champ (unlikely, since we’ve only had 3 months of shows before Covid) there so many other nice boys out there.

> I think you’ve got to consider the breed you’re working with as well. In a numerous breed it would have to be an extremely good dog to warrant using a carrier (IMO) when there are plenty of clears available to choose from.

Good point silverleaf79. My breed have good numbers although the overwhelming majority KC registered dogs in this country are imports or from imported lines. There are very few from the original English lines. Two of mine are imported lines and one is English. The latter is a carrier of LOA but I feel strongly that the English lines and their strong working qualities need preserving. At this rate they will disappear entirely pretty soon. She is also smooth which is again rather rare over here yet essential for including every two three generations in order to keep the harshness in the rough coat. They have a tendency to go soft otherwise.

masajackrussell: > <br />Indeed. That’s why good breeders are so careful about who they lift endorsements for
Understandable

> Hips and elbows for breeds that have issues with them below the agreed standard

Guidelines re the agreed standard is forever changing. Does the 'leway' allowed by KC Standard as advised by a previous poster also apply or just what fellow Breeders here percieve as a justifiable variant?

> I do think there should be hard lines as to what is acceptable health wise for registration.

Can't see that happening in the near future. Sad but responsible breeders won't be recognised until KC's criteria for registration changes IMO

> Wouldn’t want to be the person responsible for creating those lines though.

Me neither

> Thanks for all the replies, although I may just be more confused than before!  Was looking at the one male puppy left in Blackpool where both Sire and Dam tested, but was only sent photos of puppy, not with mother, even although I asked twice.  This made me (probably unjustifiably, as sold though Champdogs) suspicious.

Yes Hattie that would also make me suspicious if I could not see the mother with the puppy.

Silverleaf79:> I think you’ve got to consider the breed you’re working with as well> In a numerous breed it would have to be an extremely good dog to warrant using a carrier

EXACTLY!  As a 'numerous breed' Breeder, I wouldn't ever consider it now I am aware that 50% of Litters born could be CARRIERS...but then again it has been highlighted by another Poster here that breeding totally CLEAR adults over generations will result in other genetic diseases raising issues...'the animal world is nigh'

As Breeders we work with the information available to us now - what is the alternative?  All the scientific predictions are only that - predictions not fact!

> Does the 'leway' allowed by KC Standard as advised by a previous poster also apply or just what fellow Breeders here percieve as a justifiable variant?

No idea I’m afraid! I personally would start with the breed median or whatever it is called then ask people in that breed their thoughts - on here or in person - then make my own decision. That’s all anyone can do.