I am a bit confused about health checks.  Is it important that both the Sire and Dam are clear?  From my school knowledge of genetics and researching on line, I would think it is.I am looking at a cocker spaniel puppy on Champdogs, but only the Sire has been tested.

Hattie 1962 > I am a bit confused about health checks

Advice from the Forum will be that the Dam & Sire will have to have had every conceivable test available or it will be the wrong Puppy for you.

The health tests advised by the Kennel Club are not enough for the Cocker Spaniel Breed or many other Breeds so you will only be advised to find a reputable Breeder through recommendation or speak with Show People who have a clear & pure genetic gene pool and maybe (and only maybe) accept you onto their waiting list probably for a puppy at least a year down the line.

And bear in mind that you will only be accepted if you intend to show or work your little cocker otherwise you will be told you re not enhancing the breed.

Hope this helps

If it's a genetic test, then if only the sire is tested and he is tested Clear, then even if the dam is a Carrier, none of the puppies will be Affected.

They might still be Carriers. So you yourself will need to test if you ever plan on breeding the pup.

Of course this assumes that the dam is not Affected herself - sometimes it's very obvious if a dog is affected but other times the condition may not have become clinically obvious yet. It depends on the breed and the specific tests concerned.

Personally, I'd prefer to see both parents tested for everything but if I really liked the litter in other ways and only the sire was tested and the conditions were obvious then I'd be ok with only the sire being tested.

> Is it important that both the Sire and Dam are clear?

1234 has already explained it well, for dna tests if the sire is clear then your pup won't be affected.

With the way things are with pups just now though even the time taken to think about these health tests probably means all the pups will be gone already, hope not but good luck in your search anyway.

As far as I see this, if only the sire is tested and he's clear, then the puppies would potentially only be carrier.   However, if a bitch, and you intend to breed, you'd have to be sure any sire you use, is clear, in case she is carrier.

Mendel's theory -

Affected to Clear = all carrier
Affected to Carrier = 50% carrier and 50% affected
Carrier to Carrier = 25% clear, 50% carrier and 25% affected
Clear to Carrier = 50% clear and 50% carrier

Likewise with a male puppy, you'd have to be sure any bitch he serves, assuming he might be carrier, is clear although obviously the best combination has to be clear to clear or eventually there will be a load of carriers in the stock of any breed.   And of course, in the case of the puppy you are looking at, it would depend on what any fault might be (how serious).    If the puppy is only going to be a pet (not bred from) you don't really need to be worried, provided the male has been tested clear.

>Of course this assumes that the dam is not Affected herself

If the sire is DNA tested clear for an autosomal recessive disease, even if the dam is Affected the pups won't be, but they'll all be carriers.

Health tests aside as those have been explained by others with knowledge.

Many breeders are happy to sell a pup to someone who want a  companion and do not expect them to show or work their dog. If u were to consider breeding that is unlikely if it is a good breeder unless u are involved with dogs and they are happy to lift any endorsements for breeding .

If it's the unresurved litter with only the sire tested I can see it doesn't list any health testing at all for the dam not even hip scoring.
The DNA test wise pups could at worst be carrier which for recessive problems isn't an issue (although I'd still like to see the mother tested otherwise Id wonder if they picked that stud to avoid paying out for the tests rather than because the male was better suited) However the lack of hip score would turn me away for the litter.

Hoggie that is just not true!!!

Good breeders BREED for those reasons!!!

Not just to produce puppies for sale.

But the vast majority of any litter go to responsible suitable pet homes.

If their owners CHOOSE then becoming involved in responsibly maintaining the breed is encouraged.

You have working dogs?? I assume you delect the brst sire and d with ABILITY.  You then select the puppies with most POTENTIAL for those who will work them, so your efforts are not wasted. 

Those with less potential will go to pet only homes, as will some of the ones with potential to do more.

Some of these owners may decide to start training for Gundog work, even if their dog isn't quite up to the standard of the ones you chose for work from the outset.

Sometimes you find you actually let the better one lol.

> I'd still like to see the mother tested otherwise Id wonder if they picked that stud to avoid paying out for the tests rather than because the male was better suited) However the lack of hip score would turn me away for the litter.

All dogs can have Hip Dysplasia and clinical eye testing is a goid idea in case there are emerging conditions, or those known in a breed but no DNA test.

If the bitch has no DNA testing, then what other short cuts is the breeder taking.

I'd especially be concerned if the CLEAR dog was HEREDITARY clear as opposed to tested himself, as your relying on correct parentage (which isn't often proven) for the test results.

Hi Hattie1962,

Please ignore the sarcasm in the first response you received, it is entirely unhelpful.

Personally I would not get a puppy from untested parents, although the other posters are correct about pups only potentially being carriers and that they will not be affected as the sire is clear. For me, testing is the responsible thing to do and if a breeder cannot be bothered to do this then I’m not interested. It’s not about only breeding from clears for me but you do need to know what you are working with. Breeding from carriers is ok in my book if they are a good example of the breed and have the qualities that you are looking for in a pairing but, health testing is essential for me.

In all honesty, to get a puppy from a responsible breeder that does the health testing required for the breed you will need to go on a waiting list. At the moment it is pretty much impossible to find these puppies immediately available due to the high levels of demand. This does mean that you will likely have to wait a while, perhaps even over a year.

In terms of finding the good breeders, The KC website is there although be aware that being a member of the Assured Breeder Scheme is not a 100% guarantee of a good breeder as there are loopholes. Make sure you do your research on the breeders you find. The Champdogs website states health tested alongside a lot of breeders that have not completed them. If there is one health test recorded it is marked as health tested even if there are 8 more to be done for example. Rather misleading I feel.

In normal times you could go to shows and talk to people whose dogs you like but that’s impossible at the moment unfortunately. Looking through show results and searching for Kennel names might bring up some contacts. 

It is not easy to find a good breeder but they do exist. Just be patient and you will find the right one. Look for the breeder not the puppy. They will sell to pet homes but if a dog has good show or working potential the breeder may well prefer that be utilised which is their prerogative.

Anyway that was a little away from health testing but hope it was actually helpful!

> I'd especially be concerned if the CLEAR dog was HEREDITARY clear as opposed to tested himself, as your relying on correct parentage (which isn't often proven) for the test results.

I agree completely. I get all my dogs tested even if they are hereditary clear. This way I know for sure that they are and I can give copies of the results to new owners in their puppy packs. That way they are not just having to trust blindly.

Every breed has 'Breed Clubs' and most good breeders belong to one or more, as maintaining a breed and breeding is not a solitary undertaking.

The breed clubs can advise which health tests are advised as the Kennel Club often does not require any or all of them for the assured breeders.

Most breed clubs will have Breeder and/or puppy/litter lists.

More importantly they will often know who/where the disreputable breeders are and where it is wisest to steer clear.

Most Gundog breed clubs that are regularly worked have working sections.

Knew I’d forgotten something Brainless! The Breed Clubs of course! Brain not fully functioning yet. It’s in shock as my toddler actually let us have a lay in this morning rather than getting up at 5:30am!

Wow ! A lay in :)
Well.said re.sarcasm it is not at all helpful

I know! Shocked is not the word - until gone 9 too! Got up to let the dogs out earlier then back to bed for more sleep!

> <br />.<br /><br />You have working dogs?? I assume you delect the brst sire and d with ABILITY.  You then select the puppies with most POTENTIAL for those who will work them, so your efforts are not wasted.

That should say:
.......I assume you select the best sire and dam with ABILITY.....

The use of DNA testing in breeding dogs has enabled responsible breeders to reduce the occurance of genetic conditions in the dogs they produce.

However breeding from untested parents can reintroduce genetic conditions to normal lines. IMHO carriers should only be used if the dog is of such quality(type/ability) & is the only dog suitable available(ie the only bitch you own or the only suitable stud available)

Breeding from dogs that are normal by inheritance without a parental DNA test is also not really responsible as you cannot guarantee that bitch has not mated by more than one dog. In Germany the SV insist on all dogs being parentally tested after a massive fraud involving the two top officially in the SV & a top UK breeder. There is an old saying about always knowing your but not so your father & this is true of dogs too without parental DNA testing.

Mendelian inheritance is true only for autosomal recessive non sex related conditions  but not autosomal dominant conditions(especially if the gene has incomplete penetration like vVWD1 in certain breeds)

I would like to see all dogs DNA profiled & parentally tested, then you would really know if your dog is the product of it's assumed parents. This would also reduce the number of actual tests dogs would need & of course validate pedigrees.

Masajackrussell:> Please ignore the sarcasm in the first response you received, it is entirely unhelpful.

My apologies to all who have taken anything written in the initial post as sarcasm - it was not the intention.

Each sentence is the advice either I or other enquirers have been given by the Forum regarding Puppy Buying & Health Testing and your post repeats some of the content of that original post too.

Where's the argument? Ideally both Parents should be CLEAR or acceptably SCORED.  Percentages according to the Forum are not precise so should never be solely relied upon is what I would like to add and the advice given earlier that 'if you like the LOOK of the Litter, even if only the Sire has been tested CLEAR go ahead'.

Health Testing, Joint Scoring & Screening are the Holy Grail of the Forum?

Hoggie it was obviously sarcastic and you know it was. You’ve said yourself it’s the intent behind the written word that’s important. You have taken it upon yourself to comment for others which is not on as far as I am concerned. Give your opinion and yours alone. Your posts in the last day or so have all come across very angry and negative to me. Perhaps you are having a bad time at the moment, no one knows, but as I’ve previously said, think before you write and try to keep the tone less nasty and argumentative. Goes for everyone in a way.

ETA: that’s not to say don’t disagree with anyone just keep it polite.

masajackrussell: > try to keep the tone less nasty and argumentative. Goes for everyone in a way.<br />

Looking at responses overall, there are many Members who partake in 'angry' responses and seem to thrive on it.  It's just like
playing Russian Roulette.  Perfectly acceptable points made and then dare disagree and bang. The only thing certain is it will be the usual
shooting party.

masajackrussell:> your opinion and yours alone
Could I just ask which parts of the my previous text/opinions have I taken on myself and not been advised by the Forum as a group over the last few months.? Each sentence is word for guidance/advice from Posters on here.

There is an old saying about always knowing your but not so your father


Oops should read ". always knowing your mother, but not so your father"

> Looking at responses overall, there are many Members who partake in 'angry' responses and seem to thrive on it.

Hence why I said it goes for all

> Could I just ask which parts of the my previous text/opinions have I taken on myself

I was referring to your initial sarcastic post on this thread. You have said things for others that they can say for themselves if they want to do so. Whether it has been said before or not it is their right to repeat it if they so wish, not yours to repeat it for them in a sarcastic and negative way.

masajackrussell:> Whether it has been said before or not it is their right to repeat it if they so wish, not yours to repeat it for them

I was also referring to my initial post. All the written responses I have taken note of previously.

Fine. pardon me for repeating what I have learned on here. (note to self - don't share)

Oh wow hoggie it’s not about not sharing! No one on here answers a question with ‘you’ll get this answer from Hoggie’. Answer the question from your point of view not others. When others put their point of view across then comment on those directly but not until they’ve been put forward. It’s just how conversation works.

> It’s just how conversation works.

masajackrussell: I don't get conversations in case you hadn't noticed, I get preached at, advised what to say and how to say it oh and don't forget the belittling sarcasm.  The contravercial and often conflicting advice depending who the Poster raising the question is and I think that is where this last outburst has come from.  Direct & forthright responses should only be given by the chosen few who write them originally - got it!

Now now

Your post gave the impression that good breeders who fully health test and breed in order to show will not sell puppies to homes who do not wish to do so, and want a dog purely as a companion.

That somehow 'Pet Owners' and their dogs are somehow second class.

They are vital, and sharing in their love and pleasure gives us joy.

But importantly we need to maintain and protect our breeds Health, Temparement and Typical external characteristics, known as 'Type'. Also their reputation, and ours as breeders.

We cannot do that alone, increasingly life, smaller homes/facilities, restrictions on dog ownership, red tape, mean reduced responsible  breeding, and increasing need to get new owners involved, to keep as wide a breeding base as possible.

Many small scale breeders rather than one large scale is healthier for breed diversity.

This way differing selection priorities can be accomodated, (breed standards all allow leeway in what is typical) and more individuals help keep a wider gene pool.

Lots of litters from the same dogs, is not as useful as lots of different dogs producing small numbers each.

Apart from welfare this is one of the reasons for disaproval of large scale dog breeding, against a backdrop of rescue issues.

Many Welfare charities while advocating, 'Adopt don't shop' are simplistically anti dog  breeding, yet forget the dogs they deal with were bred by someone.

Then you have Animal Rights groups who want to see an end to breeds, and in fact an end to domestic dogs, pets, and livestock.

> The breed clubs can advise which health tests are advised as the Kennel Club often does not require any or all of them for the assured breeders.

In the interest of balance there are also breed clubs whose requirements are less stringent than those of the KCABS. There are also plenty of breed clubs who sit on the fence with recommendations rather than absolute requirements.

Brainless:> > They are vital, and sharing in their love and pleasure gives us joy
I couldn't agree more and is one of the reasons I love being a Breeder.  Seeing these smiling, happy New Owners with their new addition is key.

> good breeders who fully health test and breed in order to show will not sell puppies to homes who do not wish to do so

This was in relation to endorsements. Unless the intended new owner agrees to getting involved with working or showing, no
Breeder will lift them and this has been expressed many times on here.

somehow 'Pet Owners' and their dogs are somehow second class.
I don't believe for a minute that this is the case and they are exactly the people who visit my Kennels all year round.

> small scale breeders rather than one large scale is healthier for breed diversity
I am seen as a large scale Breeder, however I do not have lots of Litters from the same Sire.  I have employed the services
of 5 different Males for my girls all from different areas of the country in order to promote diversity, different gene pools etc but all are chosen for Clear Health Test Results, Good Hip & Elbow Scores as well as looks & temperament.  I don't see an issue between any of us in this department however my point re advising someone not to worry too much that having just one parent tested is a very irresponsible thing to advise especially when there has been such outrage from Members on this subject from day one...

Hopefully Breeders from the Forum will claim their 'copyright' to the wording they originally used rather than put out a disclaimer.

Thankyou for your responses Brainless

> This was in relation to endorsements. Unless the intended new owner agrees to getting involved with working or showing, no Breeder will lift them and this has been expressed many times on here.

This person had not asked about endorsements or breeding at all which is why your comment has been taken the way it has

I have no idea of the scope of your breeding, other than you are Licensed, but then some Councils require a License for even one litter.

When I say large scale I mean those breeding so they pretty much have puppies available all year  round, and certainly those breeding more than the previous automatic 5 litter licensing threshold.

After 26 years of breeding I have bred 153 puppies over 8 generations. 10 bitches, and  19 different stud dogs (2 of which were overseas).

The Licenced breeder who is licenced for 25 or more breeding bitches (whose only interest is producing puppies) may produce 150 pups a year.

Chances are they will have several studs who are repeatedly used on those bitches.

That gives little diversity, over a short generational period.

> All dogs can have Hip Dysplasia and clinical eye testing is a goid idea in case there are emerging conditions, or those known in a breed but no DNA test. If the bitch has no DNA testing, then what other short cuts is the breeder taking.

Yes seems the mother has no hip score listed despite it being recommended for the breed (it actually doesn't list any health test at all). yeah sadly I have known some who have used a clear stud purely because he is clear so they have an excuse not to test their own girls no other reason. One didn't even like the dog he was just clear and near.

> There are also plenty of breed clubs who sit on the fence with recommendations rather than absolute requirements.

Sadly true.

So checking a breeder out using several sources is wise - research

JoStockbridge;> <br />This person had not asked about endorsements or breeding

Yes you are absolutely right.  I can only go by experience that if any tiny little part of advice given does not cover all possibilities you will be corrected.

If you look through eveyone's responses you'll see I am not the only Poster who goes into the 'whole' Breeding expectations of the Forum just the only one that gets 'slaughtered' at every opportunity even though it is a repeat of a more experienced Posters advice.

> If you look through eveyone's responses you'll see I am not the only Poster who goes into the 'whole' Breeding expectations of the Forum just the only one that gets 'slaughtered' at every opportunity even though it is a repeat of a more experienced Posters advice.

I've read all the posts on this thread and from what I've read it seem your post came across as you were saying that breeders here will not well pet people a puppy unless they plan to work and show it which reads as kind of 'don't bother these lot here snobby' sort of thing (to be honest that how I read it when I first came to this thread, I'm now guessing that wasn't your intent) and this is why some brought it up to correct that breeders who show/work will sell puppies to or homes. Later on you did clarifie that that part of your reply was about breeding and endorsements which yes would be correct for that subject but you didn't say it was about that subject on a post not about that someone wanting to start breeding, can you not see why some have misunderstood what you were saying? I don't think people are trying to slaughter you just misunderstood your meaning and correcting how what you said came across.

Brainless:> <br />When I say large scale I mean those breeding so they pretty much have puppies available all year  round,
I see.  I wouldn't be classed as large scale then - sorry

Licensed Breeders:
> 150 pups a year by 25 or more Breeding Bitches: Like most, I don't believe this is ethical either and I believe there should be a limit set of what's an acceptable number of dogs on a premises and a maximum number of Puppies produced.>

Chances are they will have several studs who are repeatedly used on those bitches.
Yip - very likely and not just those bitches but many others from different Owners which we just recently discussed on here.

So glad you put more 'meat on the bones' of what constitutes a large scale Breeder which has given me the opportunity to take back
the comment from the earlier post that I am no where near that description! - thank you.

I am a bit confused about health checks.  Is it important that both the Sire and Dam are clear?

Hi Hattie 1962
DNA testing of dogs have become a lot more common just recently, and there are laboratories that will test for every genetic condition known for the one price. That's good, but be aware that DNA isn't everything. Some less than reputable breeders use wording such as "Extensively health tested" simply because they have had DNA done, but there are other tests that may need to be done and that could even be more important. Exactly what varies from breed to breed, but would often involve a physical eye test carried out by an eye specialist, and x-rays of hips and elbows. I don't know about the breed you are interested in, but as has been mentioned, if you check with both a breed club and with the KC, you should get a good idea of what is needed for the breed. And that will apply to both parents.

JoStockbridge:

> your post came across as you were saying that breeders here will not well pet people a puppy unless they plan to work and show it which reads as kind of 'don't bother these lot here snobby' sort of thing

Never have I called owners involved in Showing 'snobby'.  I do believe from responses directed purely at myself from 'Hobby' Breeders (which most Show Breeders are) that they are a 'closed' group though who should not be questioned re how they respond to those of us who are not and have no wish to be part of that group.

In those responses the advice given is first and foremost around Genetics, Gene Pools & Enhancing the Breed and yet on this occassion, it was poo poo'd if the Litter looked good and my reason for 'hypocracy' response I gave.  There was a huge 'hullabaloo' not so long ago that 'pets' should have exactly the same right to being as healthy as 'show or working' which I supported but the latest comment now shows that this logic is irrelevant.

Is there anything else in my original post that seems an unrealistic point to consider when a new comer approaches the Forum for advice?

Happy to clarify my position on views offered to Hattie

Jeangenie:> If the sire is DNA tested clear for an autosomal recessive disease, even if the dam is Affected the pups won't be, but they'll all be carriers

And what responsible Breeder would breed Puppies who could be Carriers of anything that can be avoided through testing?  I certainly wouldn't!

I could  be mistaken but wasn't there a long discussion about breeding from carriers in a previous thread ? .

And what responsible Breeder would breed Puppies who could be Carriers of anything that can be avoided through testing?  I certainly wouldn't!

Any responsible breeder not prepared to limit the genepool by discarding perfectly healthy dogs that will only produce healthy pups when mated to clear dogs. Any responsible breeder who would not sell such puppies for breeding to novices. Even the KC recommends that carriers are NOT discared from a breeding programme:

Breeding only from clear dogs can have a significant impact on genetic diversity within a breed, increasing inbreeding and therefore the likelihood of new inherited diseases emerging. https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health-and-dog-care/health/getting-started-with-health-testing-and-screening/dna-testing/

Thanks for all the replies, although I may just be more confused than before!  Was looking at the one male puppy left in Blackpool where both Sire and Dam tested, but was only sent photos of puppy, not with mother, even although I asked twice.  This made me (probably unjustifiably, as sold though Champdogs) suspicious.  And now I have just got email from Champdogs saying dog is sold.   Thanks again for all the advice.

Goldmali:> Any responsible breeder not prepared to limit the genepool by discarding perfectly healthy dogs

But the carrier dog is not perfectly healthy is it? - it carries a deformed gene.  Looking back through previous posts, you were one of the 'flag flyers' selecting only the creme de la creme of healthy dogs as being deemed suitable for breeding?  Sorry if I missed it but when did that stance change? It seems rules of responsibility can be 'flexible' when it comes to a much needed gene pool.

> Even the KC recommends that carriers are NOT discared from a breeding programme:

A breeding programme - surely not in the 'hobby' breeders vocabulary.

So if I only have 'carrier' dogs included in a 'breeding programme' that is acceptable.

If one of my dogs has an elbow score of 1 and the KC has 'no recommendation' (a bit like having no objection to carrier of genetically inherited diseases) does that also mean that particular dog shouldn't be discarded?

This is a real 'can of worms' opener...

But the carrier dog is not perfectly healthy is it? - it carries a deformed gene.

It is perfectly healthy. That's the point.

furriefriends:> wasn't there a long discussion about breeding from carriers in a previous thread ?

Oh indeed there was. Seems a long time ago. Shame that no one grasps the fact that continually breeding from Carriers will produce huge nos of Carrier Parents and therefor future generations of non Carriers will be in danger of extinction.

A reply just made on here suggests breeding only from non Carriers will throw up other genetic issues - OMG!

Making my own decisions on what is acceptable practice and what is just farsical expectations of perfection will be up for consideration.

A reply just made on here suggests breeding only from non Carriers will throw up other genetic issues - OMG!

Read it again and you will see that this is said by the KC.

Goldmali:
Yes and there are no recommendations re a dog with a 1 score on his elbows either so what does that tell you - they are on the fence about everything that threatens their income....and yet Breeders on here have been less than complimentary about KC as a whole no matter what their stance so chosing what guidelines should be followed and which shouldn't is individual choice - even if the Forum to's & fro's depending on the majority view.

What an absolutely absurd comparison clearly showing you do not understand genetic disease.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a carrier of an autosomal recessive disease, to rule them out is short sighted, to believe they’re unhealthy is odd and plain wrong. If you choose not to use them then that’s your choice, but please try to be informed about what being a carrier means for an individual and their potential progeny.

Many breed clubs will also recommend not limiting the gene pool by discounting perfectly healthy carriers as well. It’s not just the KC. Their pockets don’t get lined at all.

I’d also add that obviously not all offspring would be carriers if one parent is clear - nature says 50%, so it is very unlikely that we’d end up at some point with no non carriers. At the moment I am contemplating on using a carrier as a stud, because he’s sound in every other way (FT CH and amazing type and temperament).

Tectona:  > What an absolutely absurd comparison clearly showing you do not understand genetic disease.

So please enlighten me with your wisdom. PRA, EIC, CNM. HNPK, SD2, AMS, AON CARRIERS to name but a few are acceptable in the battle to irradicate these horrendous diseases?

Genetic disease is very much in my understanding from Human experience.  Are you saying it doesn't apply the animal world?
I think you really need to decide what's ethically right or wrong?  I know where my loyalties are and in fairness my decision has been heavily influenced by Posters on this very Forum.  Didn't like some of it but taken certain things fully on board.  It's called being open minded & considerate of others views.

There are certain Breed Clubs who sit on the fence so their many numbers of Breeders will be seen as making acceptable choices when making Breeding decisions.