Seeing as the demand for puppies is still high and there are still horrendous amounts of bad breeders out there profiting off of this demand, I thought we could provide the positive things that people should look for in a breeder rather than what not to look for. Perhaps this could end up as a sticky thread if it works.

So, to keep it positive, can we start all posts with:

‘A good breeder’ followed by something that they do rather than something that they don’t.

In a way I’d like to create a checklist of do’s rather than don’t if that makes sense. Doesn’t have to be in order of importance.

For example:

A good breeder will always take the puppy back if the new owner’s circumstances change, regardless of age.

A good breeder is for life and will always try and help.with any issues the owner may have

A good breeder to my way of thinking, would be a breeder who would be prepared to do 'everything possible' to their best of their ability.

> A good breeder will always take the puppy back if the new owner’s circumstances change, regardless of age.

This is as good a start as anything!  And this was included in our Sales Contract.  Trouble is there may be owners who, for some unforseen reason, can't keep their puppy/dog but feel too awkward to go back to their breeder.   As far as I'm aware, this has never happened with any of mine

Next - a good breeder will take more time finding out about the home being offered, than anything to do with the price of the puppy.   In fact if I was approached by a prospective buyer with the first question from them being 'how much' that tended to put me off.  Not lignoring the fact that all too often, price is important.

A good breeder doesn't take litters from their bitches for income alone.   We only bred a litter for our next generation.   I abhore breeders who set out to make a living out of their dogs.  With the admitting that not everybody who does, is a bad breeder - keeping their stock in terrible conditions.

A good breeder should do all the testing relevant for their particular breed.   She says when we didn't unless we knew we had a problem in a specific area.

A good breeder should always be willing to sit with prospective puppy buyers, answer all their questions and show them their adults.  By appointment because breeder/exhibitors are busy people.

For starters .....

A Good Breeder will ensure their dogs are in 'tip top' health with annual Vet Checks, Boosters & Dental Care, regular worm,
flea & tick treatment and maintain relevant records.

Continue to seek knowledge and perform Health Testing as guidelines are updated or where new Testing is available.

Take every care to thoroughly vet a potential New Owner and the potential New Owner given every opportunity to vet the Breeder.

Provide all Administrative Paperwork with a full comprehensive signed Puppy Pack including a Bill of Sale and the policy relating to return of the Dog at any time during it's lifetime as well as offer continued support and advice.

Follow their 'mission statement' of applying diligence in producing & rearing healthy, amiable and well socialised Puppies.

A good breeder doesn't breed as a main interest. Breeding is the smallest part of it. Breeding isn't a hobby. Dogs is the hobby. They are heavily involved in their chosen breed, showing and/or working, and they breed when they want a puppy to continue their lines, they don't breed just because they have a long waiting list. They breed for themselves and for the breed.

Goldmali:> they don't breed just because they have a long waiting list

What makes a good breeder:
Previous Posters have advised that the only way to source a well bred Puppy is by contacting breeders who have waiting lists and ask to be considered for addition and I believe this to be the way ahead.

How would you quantify which is an acceptable number of possible new owners on a list (good breeder) vs the acceptable number on a longer list (bad breeder) and who would make the decision?

Not sure what you mean Hoggie. I could have 100 people asking to go on a waiting list but that would not make me plan a litter. I would plan a litter for when I want a litter. What influences that is the age of the bitch to use, when I am able to keep the pup I'm planning for, if there are any particular shows and/or judges I really want to enter the bitch under, if we are chasing tickets etc. If I have no plans for the next 2-3 years I tell people so, and obviously recommend other breeders to them. Some still ask to be kept in the loop so to speak. Many go to the breeders I recommend. It's only when I have definite plans, usually at least one year in advance, that I will tell people I have firm plans for a litter.

I think goldmali last sentence explains. She decides when things are right for her to breed nothing to do with waiting list or waiting list numbers

Goldmali:> Not sure what you mean Hoggie

Just an observation but you seem very anti 'the breeder list' practice in your first post; OIMO.

Apologies  My example would be:   If your chosen Breed has a normal Litter of 6 then are you viewed as a (good breeder/) by only taking 6 possible new owners details

or if you take 12 new owners details in a view that the 6 you have to disappoint in this instance would roll over and may be lucky next time you breed (is that a bad breeder?)

In other words - how long should a reserve list be without over stepping the good breeder's practice and which 'professional body' would set the bench mark for the number accepted against any one Litter.

I have more than one bitch of breeding age and if I wanted to, could have 3 litters in a 12 month period next year and I am aware that some have 'rolling' waiting lists - just wondered what your thoughts were under the heading 'what makes a good breeder?'

Hoggie I don’t think Goldmali meant that a bad breeder has a long waiting list. More that a breeder shouldn’t breed just because they have a lot of people waiting for a puppy.

Masajackrussell:  I see.  Just wanted to steer clear of 'bad practice', In my chosen breed there are normally 8 in a litter so never have more than 8 possible new owners on a reserve list at any given time in an effort NOT to disappoint if I can avoid it. (bearing in mind these possible new owners are fully vetted by myself before they even get to 'reserve list' status. I do feel we have a duty as Breeders not to deliberately build false hope or our reputations could be tarnished for different reasons.

If your chosen Breed has a normal Litter of 6 then are you viewed as a (good breeder/) by only taking 6 possible new owners details

or if you take 12 new owners details in a view that the 6 you have to disappoint in this instance would roll over and may be lucky next time you breed (is that a bad breeder?)

In other words - how long should a reserve list be without over stepping the good breeder's practice and which 'professional body' would set the bench mark for the number accepted against any one Litter.

The size of the waiting list has nothing to do with whether you're a good or bad breeder. The reasons for WHY you breed has a lot to do with it. And breeding a litter without any homes lined up is not good as some people then end up selling to anyone who wants a pup, suitable or not, just to not get stuck with several unsold puppies.

How many people are on a waiting list is also not that important -as long as there are more homes than puppies. I had 20 people at one point and ended up with just 4 puppies. My waiting list has nothing to do with "first come, first served". There's no order. It's a list of interested people. If I have x number of puppies available, they go to the people I pick. And some people always drop out as well. And you could have 5 people wanting a dog and only one dog pup. You could also have people wanting a show dog or an assistance dog or a competitive agility dog, and there might not be a puppy of the right character for those. It's all to do with matching the right pups to the right new owners, not just numbers.

In an ideal world, if you could press a button on your bitch and order how many puppies you wanted, I would never have many. If I could I'd only ever have the one I want to keep -but of course, a singleton is never ideal and yes people need to be able to find a pup from a good breeder. But my point is still that I only breed when I want to keep a puppy. I don't breed to sell.

The bold bit is personal to me and just because someone isn’t doing this doesn’t make them a bad breeder by any means.

A good breeder proves that their dogs are true to type in looks, temperament, and working ability if appropriate.

I don’t necessarily want every dog they produce to be champions or win trials, but it’s always encouraging to find out that they’re doing well in something else as well as showing. I like to see that their pups can succeed in obedience, Good Citizen, flyball, agility, tracking, hoopers, herding, bitework, etc, or work as therapy dogs, or whatever. I like a dog to be able to do something other than just look good.

Silverleaf:  Hear! Hear!> I like a dog to be able to do something other than just look good.

Goldmali:  I am grateful for your response as the more views I can consider the better and I want to keep my own lines going too and have kept a pup back from each litter.  I have people approach me at clubs, agility & working groups asking if I have litters planned but just like you it would only be on MY terms. I have been told by the Forum that a good breeder only recoupes their outlays. So what do you call a Breeder who makes a mediocre profit? If I have put time and effort into training a gundog then yes I expect to have some recompense. A good breeder in this instance would have chosen the appropriate Pup from the litter who had the most promise and nurtured that ability surely?

> So what do you call a Breeder who makes a mediocre profit?

For me it's not whether a breeder makes a small profit that is the issue, it's if their motivation is to make money.

In all honesty, I have bred two litters and not yet kept a pup back. Each time my plan was to do so but for me they just weren't quite what I was looking for and I only want to keep something that improves on my current dogs. I used the same dog and bitch for both because they are both very nice and I was hoping on the second time that I would get what I wanted. I didn't from my initial thoughts, however, having watched them grow up a bit more with their new owners, there is one bitch that I am regretting not keeping as she is turning out very nicely indeed. Luckily for me, she has gone locally and her owners are considering letting me show her for them when the world opens up again. I am doing more research now into different stud dogs to try to get what I am looking for next time, although my next litter will be from my other bitch when she is old enough.

My aim when breeding is never just to sell the puppies, it is to further my lines that I have just begun. I am learning a huge amount along the way from my fabulous mentor as well and I'm sure there are always things I can improve on - my eye for picking a puppy for one! Obviously, some get sold and there is the 'potential' to make a small profit I suppose (although when you take in all costs including time it is unlikely) but if I did or didn't is neither here nor there for me.

> For me it's not whether a breeder makes a small profit that is the issue, it's if their motivation is to make money. <br />

Absolutely agree.

I'd like to add that for me, a good breeder is one who only breeds for their next generation and further, if they have done their research and still don't get what they wanted from that mating, then I'd usually not breed from that bitch again. 

I also only took a second litter, probably to another stud dog, if mum turned out to be a good mum.    If not, then it was only one litter and then retirement/spay.

As for profit - we were content if we had a good enough litter to keep one, or perhaps two puppies (or as in one case, three - we'd not intended to keep a male but the experienced stud dog owner said we'd be nuts to let the best dog, and he was good, go), but that usually meant we didn't break even.

With apologies for the typo errors in my earlier post.     It's too late for me to change my errors.

masajackrussell:> Obviously, some get sold and there is the 'potential' to make a small profit I suppose (although when you take in all costs including time it is unlikely)

So so true..I love my dogs/puppies to the very bones of them and seeing them grow with their new owners is a huge reward in itself.

To add to the thread topic 'what makes a good breeder?' A breeder who has compassion, care and the ability to share this with like minded dog lovers who want to have that same experience of a healthy dog in their lives.

Then there is the other side of when I have provided the puppy, trained the puppy and results from the puppy are apparent, then yes that is a different scenario.

Both Hubby & I work very hard in two other areas to provide our income - not breed puppies to provide it.  So my question would be - should every GOOD breeder have another source of income and is someone who breeds without another source of income a BAD breeder?

We could be in danger of going away from the original question if we go off into discussing the various ideas of.good and bad breeders and definitions .  Think we have done that before.
Question was to try and compile a list of what a potential . owner should.look for when selecting a breeder .
Slightly different imo

For me some of the things I look for

A good breeder uses all the recommended health testing for their breed of in cases of a cross all breeds in it.

A good breeder will answer any questions a puppy buyer asks and in turn will want to vet the buyer to ensure they are sutible.

A good breeder treats their dogs as their pets first not breeding stock.

A good breeder socialises their puppies to new sights, sounds and experiences.

A good breeder when looking a breeding partners considers health, temperament, type, as well as breed diversity, coi ect.

A good breeder has a reason for the breeding other then producing litters to sell with the aim to make profit.

A good breeder will offer lifetime suport and will be willing to help take back and rehome if needed.

A good breeder would like to know how the pup does as they grow.

Good point furriefriends!

Furriefriends: Yip, Fair comment.  It seems from previous posts we are all singing from the same hymn sheet re listing the important things to consider when looking for a good breeder.

JoStockbridge:> For me some of the things I look for

All are so relevant and there seems to be a concensus that these are the basic requirements of a good breeder.

I tend to take 3 people per sex onto my.list, then advise others that  at given moment are further down, and that I can pass them onto someone else, or will do so later..

Of course people often fall off your list, and few let you know.

Once the bitch comes in season I contact all those on my list asking if they still wish to proceed.

I do the same when she is mated, confirmed in whelp.

Once puppies are born, I contact the vetted owners who had confirmed their continued interest in the earlier steps

I then offer them a pupoy, and ask for a 10% non refundable deposit.

This enables me to pass on those I have too few pups for, to another breeder who is either planning a litter, or has a spare puppy due to large litter or sex ratio.

If I have any pups left then I may consider advertising, but more likely I will have another breeder pass on their excess enquiries.

I do take deposits as I don't like keeping people in limbo, and don't like last minute buyers, as less time to form a relationship.

Mine is a numerically small breed (7 litters, under 40 pups registered last year) so both.puppies, and occasionally buyers are Feast or Famine.

Hi Brainless,
Apologies for going off topic but in your breed, can I ask whether the breed club has a plan for continuing the population longer term (sort of like succession planning for the future) and if they are proactive in trying to drive popularity? I read in one of your comments on another thread that you suggested to someone to “think outside the box” when choosing a breed.
I’m asking this because my breed has seen rapid decline in registrations in the last 20 years, but there seems to be little attempt to attract newbies to the breed. Many of the people involved in the breed are of retirement age of older, just keen to understand what your view is on this and then relevant to this thread, would it be better to advertise litters even if fully reserved, to show people they exist if they might not have considered them before as a way to drive popularity? Thank you

74Alexandra:  > would it be better to advertise litters even if fully reserved, to show people they exist if they might not have considered them before as a way to drive popularity?

As a breeder, (not of the declining popularity breed I may add), I would never take on the practice of advertising something you do not have available. Morally very wrong and if your reputation is important to you, it would certainly be jeopardised!

I truly believe that registrations of declining Breeds will continue to fall as Breeders become more involved with keeping the gene pool 'pure' rather than considering that extinction of the breed is a true threat over time.

As you said, many of the people involved in certain breeds are of retirement age and older which will also add to the sad outcome of limted or non existent succession.

Thank you, yes I certainly agree on advertising something that doesn’t exist, but really what I mean is that without actively promoting puppies in that breed are being born or that they do exist, many people will never think to own one when they may well be very suitable for them. For example, someone in a neighbouring road owns a Skye Terrier. I was able to correctly identify them the first time we met and they were so shocked, and told Me that outside of a dog fanciers environment (shows, ring craft etc) not one person had ever heard of the breed. I’m not saying that breed is in trouble because I don’t know enough about them, but with the massive increase in people owning cross breeds, the smaller pedigree breeds are going to be seen less and less, probably only by existing enthusiasts. A Spanish Water dog litter has just been listed today I see, the advert basically says they already have a long list but to contact them for breeding plan enquiries. This is exactly what I am suggesting :)

Re your comment about being pure, it’s unfortunately something I have become aware of in our breed. In the US the breed is one and it would certainly be beneficial to cross the coat types here too, no one want to support it as they are not in agreement on the contributing factor about lack of immune support caused by the small gene pool.

74Alexandra:  > actively promoting puppies in that breed are being born or that they do exist

Enthusiasts will only allow one litter every few years to be born, (something I was unaware of and can only assume from responses read on the CD Forum), so very few Litters of Puppies are born & don't exist in number at any one given time. 

Due to the diligence future Breeders have embraced, declining oumbers of the breed are not their priority.  Only 'perfect' show examples are of worth or at least those with 'pure' genetics.

For this reason I believe numbers of the specific type will continue to fall.

Skye Terriers are absolutely beautiful as are Spanish Water dogs but the plain truth is, breeding plan enquiries can be upward of 2 years and even then if the breed has a historically small Litter, that could be even longer as there are not enough to satisfy interest.

In fairness, no one wants to breed unhealthy Puppies and the cost of that is that certain breeds will no longer exist.
a subject I have long debated but no one seems to take note of other than yourself.  Cheers 74Alexandra - well highlighted.

A friends nieces has recently bought a Skye Terrie, the breeder has asked that if she turns out ok and has good health results would she be interested in breeding from her in the interests of increasing breed numbers.

Even though all breed clubs aims are to foster interest in their breeds, at the same time of course breed enthusiasts worry about exploitation.

We have a long standing (small by other breeds perspective), puppy farming and rescue problem in the breed, primarily from Irish puppy farmers.

As with your experience we have/ had an aging core of enthusiasts, some quite happy with the status quo.

That’s brilliant. I don’t want to start a whole separate subject, whilst I am all for not encouraging the wrong sorts to start exploiting declining breeds, it is still nice to know there are some encouraging breeders. Largely the experience I have found is that breeders don’t want you involved until you have proven yourself. Again, I am not disagreeing with any of those points of reasoning, but without some encouraging and now with the increase in licensing vigilance by councils, I just can’t see that the small breeds will be around in any number in the next 50 years. On one of the Facebook groups, it’s choc full of people breeding their pets (huge amount of crossbreeds) but imagine if those people who have the time and inclination could be guided in the right way and as part of an effort to preserve breeds.

Again just want to stress I’m not trying to be provocative here! It’s just what I personally have seen and how it is also relevant to me. Thank you.

Jodi:> good health results would she be interested in breeding from her in the interests of increasing breed numbers.

That would be fantastic if all turned out well health test wise.  She could then increase the population by avg of 5 puppies at age 2 yrs.
When next would be up for discussion and then a maximum of 3 Litters in her lifetime (by age 8) would be quite rightly - cut off point

I hope your friend's nieces have a successful outcome   Many, many new owners would have to take part year on year to bring the breed clear of the ' declining list' unfortunately.

Thank you, I saw this after my reply to Jodi but 100% understand your point on that too.

Do breed clubs create succession plans at all?

Thank you

I so agree with you and have successfully and unsuccessfully encouraged new enthusiasts.

Unfortunately many balk at the responsibilities and costs, and now increasing Red Tape (some Councils insist on Licensing for any breeding where pups are sold).

When I next wish to breed I may habe problems if my Council require a Licence, as my deeds prohibit running a business.

We have demand outsripping supply, and a thriving involved cote of pet owners, and owners who have lost their dogs, but committing to keeping the breed going by breeding is more than most can comit to, due constraints of time, facilities not to mention finance.

Yes, unfortunately I am one of those whose council has told me ANY breeding activity requires a license. They said if I could not prove I wasn’t going to profit the license comes first, just because I am planning a single litter in the future (likely less than one every 18 months) it doesn’t matter to them :( wouldn’t it be great if the KC were more proactive about what a registration means rather than worrying about all the money they are losing by not registering cross breeds.

Updated because some of my post is missing. I added that I have met some lovely mixed breeds, but it would be great to see those who are in a position to breed being offered support by the KC to continue certain breeds who may otherwise be heading towards extinction in the not too distant future.

Just to add.

Someone mentioned that breed enthusiasts reduce their activitirs too much and only seek perfection.

For most serious breeders the breeding is a small part of their canine activities, and needs to be fitted into life and the canine activities.

Breeding a litter takes a lot of time and work, which many can ill afford between work, family, and finance.

Those who have the time are often less physically able duento age or health.

There is also the tesponsibility for puppies bred.

Homes do fail, and dogs need to be re-homed, sometimrs many yrars later.

Few of have the facilities or time to deal with too many bounce backs.

For me having a male back could be difficult if I had a bitch in season.

If the returnee was unsociable it would involve finding and paying for kenneling.

So we breed first for ourselves, and occasionally just to keep linrs going in the hope of attracting new enthusiasts.