This forum has differed from others for as long as I have been a member, which is 15 years, in that it's never been the "fur baby" and "aww cute little puppy whuppies" type of forum, it has always had genuine, experienced dog people who have pedigree dogs and their breed's interest at heart and therefore say it as it is. Not encouraging breeding for the wrong reasons, because we've seen too much of what happens, often through involvement with our breed rescues. This is what encouraged me to join to start with. I'd read posts for a few weeks and realised how much more responsible people on here were. When I joined, one of my first posts had something to do with training (which has always interested me) and I made some remark about the need to be a pack leader to your dogs. The way I remember it, I was absolutely drowned in replies that all pointed out how wrong and out of date I was, how the old theories had been disproved etc. I literally had NO idea that what I had always been told and believed was the best way to train a dog was actually not only far from the best, but it was also unkind. I was floored. It felt bad because people were saying that I wasn't kind to my dogs. But I read the links given, checked up on what people said and I learnt. I understood that they were right, and they weren't picking on me, they just cared about dogs and shared knowledge. It changed my views and taught me a lot. I'd been wrong and this forum showed me that. And I'm still here.

A few years ago this forum was a LOT (lot!!) harsher towards the people who joined and declared they were going to breed because their cute little Fluffypants was the best dog ever and all their friends wanted a puppy and they were only going to breed pets etc. Then one day Admin put their foot down and said this had to stop, members had to stop assuming the worst of people. And it did stop. It's very different now. Advice and views are given in an effort to spread knowledge. Unfortunately the great majority of the long term regular posters left as they preferred it as it was. But there are some VERY knowledgeable people on here that stayed and have been members for much longer than I have, such as Brainless and Jeangenie.

The point is -if you ask for advice, you need to be open to advice AND people's opinions. If you don't want it, then don't ask publicly. It doesn't matter what the subject is, you will never get an entire group of different people to agree on everything. But when you notice that 90% or more of the members share the same views, then maybe you should start looking into it instead of dismissing it outright. I did.

None of this aimed at any particular poster.

Absolutely bang on Goldmali!

> I've been here for years now and it is only recently that the forum has become such hardwork.

That made me smile. I have been on here for longer than any of you and this place has always been a nightmare. I often wonder why I bother to keep it going.

I started the thread below 5 years ago and nothing changes

https://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=145096

But that's because u are a admin ;)

Fb group  admin responsibility are nightmares just the same :)

> It's very different now

Marianne you are right it is better than it used to be and I hope you don't mind me saying that you and a few other posters like you are just about the only reason why I do still keep this place running.

Thank you Mark.

Great Post goldmali

Lots of names on that thread who are no longer here posting, such a shame as they were valuable members who spoke with passionate sense. Thankfully many of those members I do still keep in contact with off this forum.

masajackrussell:Upsetting People: Yip as far as you are aware - they just leave and now you are calling them silly. As I said before, you don't upset me but my opinions upset you on every and any point.

Yes you have PM'd me in response but then backlash is brought to this page.  I have invited you to PM again in order to keep the thread on the right track but you refused.

There is freedom of speech in this country and on here and I have agreed with you and every other on the Forum re the ethics of BYB,PF & unscrupulous CB's and how I find it disgusting.

I am very happy with my practices and can offer multiple recommendations received over the years as well as new friends through lasting contact however your last paragraph threw yet another way of raising question to the Forum on how I continue to introduce my Dogs/Puppies in the Commercial Shooting World. (very subtle - well done)

I have no wish to enter your 'Showbiz' Arena or Working /Agility Grp. My Gundogs are proper working dogs: my life savers, companions & teachers of what makes the world a better place which I breed with waiting lists and recommendation enquiries ongoing and just as protective of as a 'prized pooch'.

If you want to know about working Dogs - great, otherwise Members including yourself are the people to ask.  Just different not 'the devil in carnate'

Suejaw:  Would you be talking about SL?  Who left after being banned for the second time? hmm - there is always a reason for people leaving I agree and it is not aleays good either.

I also want to say I’ve learned a ton here and I’m very grateful for those people who have been so generous with their advice.

I don’t always agree with everything and clearly people are going to have different views and experiences. That’s fine. I don’t need an echo chamber and I very much welcome hearing different opinions so I can decide for myself in a more informed way.

Sure, discussions can get heated. Some people are pretty blunt when it comes to expressing themselves. But I’m a big grown-up human and somehow I cope without getting upset at people speaking the truth as they see it, even if I don’t agree. We’re all here because we love dogs after all, and we want what’s best for them.

> I am very happy with my practices and can offer multiple recommendations received over the years as well as new friends through lasting contact however your last paragraph threw yet another way of raising question to the Forum on how I continue to introduce my Dogs/Puppies in the Commercial Shooting World. (very subtle - well done)

Oh Hoggie that wasn't my intent at all but if you want to take it that way fine.

> I have no wish to enter your 'Showbiz' Arena or Working /Agility Grp.

Nobody tells you working dogs aren't proper dogs so why disparagingly tell people that their show dogs are 'showbiz'? Not sure what a working/agility group is.

> Just different not 'the devil in carnate'

Never said working dogs were - actually said that showing and working were the best ways to prove a dogs quality.

All I would like you to do is be a bit clearer with what you write and then some of the responses might be better - hey perhaps I should do the same as I'm apparently unknowingly upsetting people!

I doubt we will ever agree on much though Hoggie.

people's drama aside
Welcome to the forum Aspirant

> Please tell me, If no one will sell me a bitch to breed from, how can I get started??

Most I know got started out by first owning their breed and getting more involved in it either by showing, working or getting into dog sports then later into breeding. I myself got my own girl as a pet with the aim to show, had no plans to breed, did later get into flyball. When old enough I had my girls health testing done mainly for my own and her breeders knowledge (i'm a big fan of pet dogs being health tested not just breeding dogs) and her results were acceptable and she matured into a nice bitch then her breeder asked if I was considering breeding and it went from there really. My girls breeder became my mentor and I now have my girl and her son and have plans to have a girl from him later on.
So I would suggest waiting until after things get going again and attending some shows and meet breeders in person and have a chat with them and see the dogs that are out there.

I'd like to try some obedience comps with my boy although from what I've read I'll lose points for his barking but I'd still like to try it although i couldn't ever find any classes here.

As you may have now read from the breeders here the responsible ones worry about where their puppies end up and as there are a lot of irresponsible breeders out there most are suspicious when someone they don't know contacts them with the aim of getting a dog to breed. I'm not saying you intend to be that sort of breeder but to give you an idea of why some of the breeders you have contacted may have refused you. There is a thread on this section of the forums second page by someone who sold a puppy to what appeared a nice home to sadly later find out she is being puppy farmed.

masajackrussell:

Let me make it clear: As a Senior Manager for most of my career my experience has taught me that it is not only 'what is written' but the 'intent of the unwritten' meaning behind it. (at sales school - (words confirm but the underlying message demonstrates).

Let me make it clear: Nobody said show dogs (showbiz dogs) aren't proper dogs. Just different to my preference.  Nor are my dogs the 'devils in carnate' because they are not Champions and nor would I wish tjem to be.

There is a difference between 'working dogs; as you identify them as a Breed for show purposes & 'working dogs' who have an actual job which they are bred for and partake in daily.  An agility group are a group of people with working dog breeds competing in Agility

Let me make it clear: We have actually already agreed on many things within the Forum which I upvoted however I find it rather distasteful when the 'heirarchy' as I descibe some. respond with desparaging remarks with the full intention of destroying their interest and posters making assumptions about their intentions or long term goals.

And regretfully the 'baw wi us is burst; as they say in my Scottish homeland.

I'd like to try some obedience comps with my boy although from what I've read I'll lose points for his barking but I'd still like to try it although i couldn't ever find any classes here.

Bit off topic (sorry) but in the Rally regulations it states 2 points to be deducted for "excessive barking" so maybe rally could be suitable?

> my experience has taught me that it is not only 'what is written' but the 'intent of the unwritten' meaning behind it

Well like I said, that wasn't my intent. Accept it.

> Nobody said show dogs (showbiz dogs) aren't proper dogs

You're intent with the word 'showbiz' was derogatory upon the receiving end. You could have just said show.

> Nor are my dogs the 'devils in carnate' because they are not Champions and nor would I wish tjem to be.

Again, never said they were. Mine aren't champions either...

> as you identify them as a Breed for show purposes & 'working dogs' who have an actual job

I was talking about the latter. I shoot, my husband is a farmer, my dogs are workers as well (ratters), I did not mean the 'working' group from the show ring, I meant those that work in the field.

> We have actually already agreed on many things within the Forum which I upvoted

I wouldn't know as I don't think you can see who the individuals are who have upvoted comments.

> respond with desparaging remarks with the full intention of destroying their interest and posters making assumptions about their intentions or long term goals.

Again, never my intent, I'm all for new people coming into the dog world, we need the young blood. Perhaps I was having a bad day and my words came out harsher than intended. Again, perhaps we should both be looking at what we write.

> And regretfully the 'baw wi us is burst; as they say in my Scottish homeland

I have no idea what this means and I'm pretty sure I won't be bothered by it if you tell me.

Just as an aside, it isn’t only working dogs who compete in agility. River and I are only beginners and not ready to compete yet (we will), but it isn’t only working dogs who do agility.

My class has my papillon, a springer, a small lurcher type, another mixed breed that I think has a fair bit of Stafford in her, and Maltese poodle cross. The other beginners class is two cockers, a border collie, and a boxer.

No Roscoe and dogs a babe. Many many more on that old thread. SL hasn't been on the forum for that long.

I think you're maybe putting the cart before the horse Aspirant. I don't think anyone should start out wanting to be a breeder, all the good breeders I know started out with just a dog, that they bought as a pet then maybe decided to show or work, then they realised that it wasn't maybe the best example of it's breed, so they went on a waiting list and got a better dog to show or work. After some success with their second, third or fourth dog they started thinking maybe they would have a litter from it, so they choose the very best stud dog, now they know a little bit more about their chosen field and with help from the friends they've made in their hobby and so on.

This is why breeders would view you with suspicion if you want a bitch to breed, not every bitch should be bred from and to know if she's good enough to breed from or not you need to immerse yourself in your chosen field. If you don't do that then you're what we would call a backyard breeder, or a commercial breeder or puppy farmer. None of these names mean you would be bad to your dogs, they could be very well looked after and have all their health tests done but you're not breeding for a purpose.

> Bit off topic (sorry) but in the Rally regulations it states 2 points to be deducted for "excessive barking" so maybe rally could be suitable?

I'll have to look in to it thanks, we would prob still lose those 2 points lol

Off topic I know but the discussion was brought up on this post and I wanted to clarify. I’ve just been through all my posts on the forum and none of them look out of order to me so I’m happy with how I post. The only posts I’ve had deleted are some of those ‘discussions’ with a certain person.

Hope everyone has a good day.

I agree with JoSB, definitely try and wait till all this COVID has died down. I eventually bred my first litter (on my own, I’d been ‘involved’ in litters before then) with my third dog. I breed now too but my last litter was 3 years ago, it’ll be 4 if I decide to go ahead with breeding a litter next time. I think to say you’ll have 2 litters a year may also not have helped your case on this forum - its good to have a plan but as much as I love having a litter in the house, 2 a year would be very tiring with all the work involved. Also it’s then hard to get the girl who was bred from out into the world, whether that be showing (some bitches look like scarecrows after a litter and can take months, if not a year to get back to full show quality) or working (the bitches fitness will have declined and would only be starting on good form months down the line) there’s also a lot to consider in terms of ‘when’. Shooting season and show season only lasts a few months a year (the big ones anyway) and its very hard to plan a litter round that too as a girls seasons can be unpredictable, especially if she’s been bred from she can have a ‘new normal’. Realistically she’d be out of action for 4 months just whilst she’s pregnant, Whelping and rearing, plus the other things I’ve mentioned above. This is only a brief case of all the things that should be considered, I would imagine you will or have researched into breeding and possible situations that can arise.
It’s slightly off topic but I had someone come to me previously to enquire about me helping her out with a litter. Once she realised what really was involved, and imo how to bring a litter into the world ‘properly’ it did put her off - that wasn’t my intention but a lot of people do just think ‘ooo puppies’ and unfortunately it doesn’t always turn out as nice as that.
Only recently I’ve ??selfishly?? Decided (can’t decide if its selfish or not?!) that I’m not going to breed the girl I kept from a previous litter - I love all my dogs but she’s special and particularly amazing, she’s a therapy dog and has been since she was 12 weeks (unofficially at first as she was too young to be official so she was a therapy dog on behalf of the school, long story, but of course is now officially) and I can’t bare to think what if something went wrong...also she’s too precious to me to be tainted by a male   she’s worked her way into so many peoples lives and has helped too many people, although part of me is disappointed because with the right male I think her puppies could be something!

Another thing to add is that I’ve been looking for a golden GR to bring into the family, not to breed from I should add, but it is so hard anyway at the moment because of the vast amount of emails breeders are getting - I know all about that part! So at this point in time receiving an email that talks about future breeding will be off putting to many breeders I’m afraid.

I would try and find a breeder who works or shows, the one you’d want to do with your dog, (therapy work is great and potentially you could do with either type, temperament and training is key and so long as you know what you want to do the breeder can help in choosing the pup that at the early stages is showing a good temperament for what you want to achieve with it) and take it from there, you don’t need to start breeding from your first, in fact having a dog that you haven’t bred from would encourage breeders that you’re not ‘in it for the money’ as they’d see that the girl you already have isn’t being used for breeding etc. Also imo you learn from every dog you have and just having one you can learn from what to do and not do will help for the future.

To add, I do think whatever age you start there’s probably cons (I’m in my late 20s) and when I first started showing an interest there were a few people who were ‘judgey’ - I do get the posters point about the older you get the older you’ll be to then care for that pup should they need to come back (sorry forgot who that was!) but I suppose it depends when you’re retiring and maybe once you knew what you were doing (as much as the rest of us?!) you could mentor someone and they could take on your role? I don’t know, I do see it from both sides.

Don’t take offence to this, I was in a similar place to you at one stage, I mean this in the nicest of ways.

masajackrussell: Off topic I Know Not surprised you had them deleted.  These are the ones that caused offence in the first place - I rest my case.

Along with a load of yours that were deleted too.

ETA: I haven’t been banned though so could be worse

Can we just stop this nitpicking and returning to old news please hoggie.
Time to move on

Agreed furriefriends.

Furriefriends. Nitpicking. You are absolutely right and again I apologise.  When you have been truly dented early on in joining the forum, there is a very bitter after taste. I will drop the whole thing and start again but I can't speak for anyone else. (sorry Furriefriends - off thread again). Lets hope this is and end to it.

On a lighter note, many of us were involved in the Breeder Scam Thread but as that was put bed a couple of weeks ago, I thought I should give you the update on here which was received today:
After such a highly charged thread and thanks to the advice given by the Forum, Sandee has won through and received her deposit back from the
unscrupulous Breeder in question. sarakinglsley who very kindly put her self on the line and had a horrible experience with the said Breeder has decided to leave the Forum which is sad but the eventual outcome has been sucessful in achieving the goal of the OP.

masajackrussell:  Very true and I was so lets just leave it at that please....

As a breeder I would be concerned about anyone who was purchasing a puppy with the sole intention of breeding, things don’t always go to plan and I’d be concerned what would happen to the puppy if her health test results were not good. We have had 14 Golden Retrievers and only 7 have been suitable for breeding. The first 4 were not bred/used at stud for various reasons but in hindsight this gave us several years of being around the show ring, getting to know dogs in pedigrees as dogs and not just names on paper and lots of time to learn. I’d say find a puppy from lines that you admire and from a breeder who can support you, work or show her and if she is a good example of the breed and has good health test results then you could consider breeding her.  I doubt being working class is what is putting people off, the vast majority of people I know in Goldens would probably consider themselves as working class.

Coming at this as a breeder.........
A lot of blood, sweat and tears has gone in to my breeding.  I've spent hours studying pedigrees, planning a mating, carefully whelped and reared puppies, cared for my bitch, had sleepless nights, my stress levels have shot through the roof at every cry.
I then spend hours evaluating my puppies.  Because I show, and I'm always trying to improve on something or other in my breeding, I want to keep back the best out of the litter.  There's your first problem....... you're unlikely to get the best dog out of the litter because a decent breeder will be wanting to keep it.
Secondly, because of the time and effort I've put over the years in to developing my lines, I don't want to sell a promising puppy to someone I don't know.  I don't want someone breeding a litter and trading off my reputation.  I don't want the work I've put in to my lines ruined by a mating I wouldn't do; and here's the thing - if I sell you a bitch to breed from, I've no say in what stud dog you mate it to.  I may well know the pedigree well and that it won't work with that bitch.  If I know you, then I know whether I can trust you to at least chat to me about it.  If I don't know you, then I'm working blind.  It's not about you 'stealing' lines, it's about breeders wanting to protect their lines.
I have sold bitches to other breeders in the past - but I knew them.  I knew what sort of set up they had, experience, and that they wouldn't overbreed the bitch or go out to a stud that wouldn't work.  I knew that the bitch would be loved and cared for in the same way I would care for her - and not just be a breeding machine.
Someone who is completely unknown to me is a huge risk. 
However, it doesn't take much to get to know people.  I've recently sold a show/breeding prospect male to a lady that I met at a dog show.  She wanted to get in to showing and went along to a number of shows to chat to breeders, and she sat and watched the judging.  I had chatted to her at a few shows (all of which where my dog went Best of Breed) and then after a few weeks, she told me she loved my boy, explained her intentions, and asked if and when I had any puppies out of him, would I consider selling her one.
Breeders can be a prickly bunch.  I am fiercely protective of my breeding, my dogs and my puppies, and would be very cautious about selling any puppy to anyone for breeding purposes.