Hi everyone.  I am new to the group, so apologies if this question has been asked many times before.

I am an NHS Nurse in Lincolnshire and I'm retiring soon.  I have had dogs all my life and I want to become a hobby breeder of Golden Retrievers.  I'm not looking to breed more than 2 litters per year, so I'm not going in it for the money, I just want to breed confident, healthy, trainable dogs for loving homes.  The thing I have found is no one wants to help you when you're starting out.  You have to know or be related to someone already established, which I'm not.  Breeders I have enquired with have treated me with suspicion, like I'm trying to steal their 'lines' and others have dismissed me because I am working class (would you believe).  I have been caring for people all my life as a Nurse and I know I would be able to rear beautiful , healthy and well-socialized puppies.  Please tell me, If no one will sell me a bitch to breed from, how can I get started?????
Regards
A

Hi Aspirant,

It’s going to be a bit difficult at the moment what with COVID. Let’s go with normal times for the purpose of this discussion. Responsible breeders are likely to want you to be involved in showing or working your breed before being happy about you breeding them. The aim is to improve the breed so if you can have some success at working or showing then you know conformation and ability are pretty good and so a good base to start with. If you go in with I want to breed but don’t show any interest in showing/working for example, you are unlikely to get people willing to help you.

You also need to get all the necessary health testing done on your breed and only breed of the results are good. This can be very expensive especially if results aren’t satisfactory as you can’t then move forward. There’s all the other associated costs with breeding too.

Have you done any showing or worked your dogs before?

Some people can be difficult and very protective in the dog world I’m afraid. Not very helpful to newbies at all as you say and we’ve  all been newbies before! I still am I would say!

In normal times you could go to shows, watch the dogs, chat to the owners of the dogs you like, but as I’m sure you are aware it’s just not possible at the moment. It’s the best way to find a mentor though.

Hope that helps.

To add to what masajrt has said have u spoken to the breeder of your dogs ?
Its likley you have endorsements regarding breeding in your dogs anyway and a good relationship with them is a good place to.start . They should have a lot of knowledge hopefully and would.be very useful as a mentor

Hi

Thank you for your response.  I have done some advanced obedience competitions in the dim and distant past, but not recently.  I am interested in starting up again though (when Covid is over), so that might help(?).    I also might decide to train her as a therapy dog, but I need to get the dog first!!!

I guess Ill have to wait until things get back to normal, before I can do anything.

Regards
A

Thanks furriefriends

Unfortunately, we lost our GR a while back and his breeder has now retired, so don't have a dog at present.  As I said, breeders I've approached have generally not been very kind or helpful.

Regards A

Ok so what I would suggest is...

Find a breeder that you like the dogs of, health tests fully and raises them properly (ask on here for help if you aren’t sure). Get in touch with them and get on their waiting list. You shouldn’t really be looking for a puppy you should be looking for a breeder.

You might be waiting for up to a year but it is worth it for the right dog.

Make sure you let them know that you want a dog to show/work with the possibility of breeding further down the line (once the dog is 2 years old) subject to good health test results. I would also make it clear that you are happy to take advice and learn from them. Having puppies really has to be secondary to everything else. If someone came to me saying straight off they wanted a puppy to breed from they wouldn’t be getting one. The interest has to be in the dog first not what it can produce if that makes sense. That is why an interest in showing/working, having a purpose for the dog alongside being a companion is important. It won’t happen overnight I’m afraid. There is going to be some waiting.

Even if the breeder has retired they maybe able happy to help
Although I wasn't wanting to  breed after I lost my flat coat I contacted her breeder for help with finding a new puppy
Admittedly we had been in contact throughout Jose's life. she was really helpful knowing many others in the breed inspite of no longer breeding herself

Good advice has been given.

No dog should be obtained with the sole Intention of breeding. All dogs should be either pets or working dogs(as being a stock worker or gundog first etc) first  depending on breed.

So decide whether your pup is to do some activity or a pet. Then find your breeder being 100% honest re wanting possibly to breed a litter & of course if you intend to breed 2 litters a year you will need 2 breeding bitches eventually not just 1 having back to back litters

You are also looking into a breed thst is already over exploited, so will encounter more suspicion from good breeders.

In numerically small breeds where we need a wider breeding base anyone with a true interest in becoming a 'preservation breeder' will be welcomed with open arms.

I started as a Single parent Mum of two pre school children after my first dog of another breed died.

The breeder and the owner of her sire were two of the Doyennes of the breed.

Spent hours on the phone picking their brains.

For the first two years I could not attend shows as my son was too young to leave with Grandparents.

During this pre computer time I researched the breed, her pedigree, buying decades of back numbers of club publications, read books on the breed, genetics, breeding etc.

I contacted owners of dogs in her pedigree for photos etc.

I then started showing, and with my mentors help bred my first litter 3 years later.

That was in 1995, and have had 8 Generations, and added many puppy buyers to my extended family, and I still consider myself a Novice with lots to learn.

Sadly especially in popular breeds modt people who want to breed do not have the breeds welfare at heart, and most don't realise or care for the responsibility for the welfare of the breed, the pups or their owners.

But don't be tempted to get 2 pups at once.
Concentrate on one pup and whatever disciplines you choose and
Working towards what u need to consider breeding .always hoping that pup will be suitable of course
.
Later in your plans as ann suggests a second bitch which may be one you have bred yourself by then

A retired breeder is the best mentor going, as they have all that knowledge to pass on.

Hence my caveat "eventually"

This isn't how you get into breeding responsibly. The hobby is being involved in a breed, showing and/or working, learning all that you can and enjoying it. Then one day years later you start to toy with the idea of having a litter one day. Because you love the breed and have learnt a lot. Made friends in the breed, know what lines you like and which you don't. Know enough to be able to support your puppy buyers with help and advice for the lifetime of their dog.   Nobody responsible will sell a bitch for breeding to somebody who plans to breed just because they like the thought of it. 2 litters a year is a LOT and if you just bred puppies to sell as pets without being involved in the show world and without breeding for yourself and your next pup to keep, you do become just a business. Breeding responsibly isn't something you can just decide to do before you even have a bitch. It just doesn't work like that. This is why no good breeder will  consider selling you a bitch. I struggle to come up with a suitable comparison that's easy to understand but if you adopt a child you don't do it solely because you want grandchildren to care for you in your old age, and if you start taking part in a sport you don't do it because your plan is to enter the Olympics just two years later.

Sorry ann u certainly did :)

Lol no problem

Well thanks Goldmali, but you don't know me, so don't judge.

Regards
A

Thank you everyone.  Much appreciated advice.

A

Thank you so much Masajackrussell.  Excellent advice.

Regards
A

I've had enquiries like this the people enquiring had no standing in the breed in terms of working or showing, they just fancied the idea of breeding. I wouldn't entertain this, for me if someone wants to show or work their dogs and then prove their worth and become emersed into the breed and learn about it then maybe down the line I may consider it.
For anyone wanting a bitch just to breed from then for me the answer would be no I wouldn't sell them a puppy as how would they know what is a good specimen? Could they say the faults of their bitch and pick a suitable stud dog or at least have a short list to discuss with their breeder or mentor in the breed?
Would they give life time back up to all those pups they produce and take them back at any time at any age?

None of us know you but from what you've posted i wouldn't entertain this either.

Indeed suejaw, none of you do know me.

As it's a forum, I only gave a brief outline, not my life story.  See you all at the shows (when they start up again)

Regards
A

Again I was stepping back but I can't resist adding my two-bits worth to this one

I did it perhaps the wrong way round in terms of keeping my numbers under control at least.   I wanted a Basset and eventually when we were in a position for me to stop working full time, found our first from one of the top kennels in the country - located quite close to where we lived.   I decided to venture into the ring, without much success even if I thought we had the next Crufts BIS (hah).  He was bought as just a pet, which is what he was really.  

I'd joined the Breed Club and the local Branch and saw another member who became a friend, out (showing) with a super new puppy.  I persuaded her to do a repeat mating and she let me have pick male to show.  Hopping the pond, he became our first Champion, albeit a Canadian one.  Then the bug bit and I wanted something I'd bred to show.  Going back to the breeder of our second hound's sire, in the UK, with the help of the breeder/friend, they chose me our foundation bitch, knowing I was serious re starting my own bloodline.  She came to us at 5 months, was shown to her Ch. title and it all began........   It took many years before our first litter arrived (not without problems but that's another story).

What I'm suggesting is you'll be lucky to get your hands on a good sound foundation bitch from a reputable breeder, without putting your time in.      And even then you'll need to find a reputable breeder with good stock, who hasn't bred their most recent litter to keep the best male but the best bitch, which most breeders do - meaning you'd be unlikely to find a breeder who will sell their pick bitch to an 'unknown'. 

As for 2 litters a year - from the one bitch?  Nah.   And if you buy in two bitches, you'll quickly be over-run.

Personally much as I understand you'd like to venture into breeding, I think you need to look at this as a long-term project, finding yourself a decent bitch to show (curtailing the breeding thing at the outset) and finding a breeder who you can become friends with (and for a mentor) who will understand your ambitions.

Don't take the information from the people who have replied personally. As you say they only know what u have told us.
Thise people, notincluding myself, 
i dont  breed , are very knowledgable and respectable breed  in their different breeds. Having learned over many years
Rather take.those things on board and with whatever other knowledge and experience u may have I would keep those comments in mind
Along the way u will have enjoyment in your.chosen breed  and may then decide that u still wish to breed with all the knowledge and support u will have gathered . It may not be with that first bitch but see what happens along that journey.
I

If Aspirant has previously done higher level obedience, and wishes to return to that discipline, she may have more success sourcing a puppy from a working breeder. Previous remarks about health test results would still apply. Whether choosing working or show lines, there is no guarantee that any puppy will eventually develop into a brood prospect. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - whether that be working or the show ring!

Well thanks Goldmali, but you don't know me, so don't judge.


I am not judging, I am responding to the information given.
One other thing: Most people STOP breeding when they retire. I am 54, my husband is 63. We had planned to have our final litter in 2017, it will now instead be this year. Keeping a pup for showing means that if that lives for 15 years (which isn't uncommon in my breed) my husband would be 78 by then. That's okay, hopefully, but any later than this could mean we'd end up too old to be able to properly care for our dogs or leave them without owners if we die. Even if we bred without keeping a pup (which again isn't what responsible breeders do, except in some particular circumstances and only then rarely) we'd still be responsible for any pup we have bred for its entire life so if I bred a litter at 70 and the new ower could not keep it ten years later, I'd have another dog to care for at 80.

You can get a great new hobby by buying a good quality dog from a good breeder and starting to show or do obedience or take part in field trials or flyball or anything else - there are activities suitable for everyone of all ages and all abilities. That would be a great plan for retirement IMO.

Goldmali

Well good for you dear.

Well good for you dear




How rude

If you did "advanced level" Obedience many years ago(not sure what that means-you were a Ticket handler perhaps) you will have to relearn training methods as Obedience has changed in the intervening period. The exercises are basically the same, but the technical training is much more detailed. I have a few friends who have been involved at the highest level(ie Ticket classes & winning the Crufts Championships with more than one dog) for many years & even they have had to change their training methods.

There are breeders who produce puppies from their Obedience Goldens, but not many & I doubt they would sell l a bitch purely to breed from & they would also put endorsements on to prevent puppies being KC registered from their puppies, which would not preclude you from breeding, but make the puppies less saleable & defeat the objection of breeding quality Goldens.

Aspirant: Hilarious!!! Wet pants now! Don't forget your zimmer either at this rate you won't be having a Puppy until you are at least 70!

Aspirant is rude??? - really??? Look in before looking out ...hmm

Hee hee Hoggie!  I just love all these professional offence takers!

What I can never understand is how people breeding from their first dog at 2 years old can have the experience to give advice to their puppy buyers.

I have been involved with dogs as in owning showing and working them for 45 years. Have had my second breed for 30 years and have been on my breed club committee for about 25 years and I still don't feel qualified to give advice on many situations

Just how I feel

Yup, the more I have learnt, the less I feel I really know.

Cava14Una: giving advice is a no no on here  Sadly I agree and very sad that is the way you feel with the fantastic stuff I am sure you could share with all of those valuable 'doggie' years behind you. If you gain a scientific degree or perhaps the attitude that 'only you have a point of view'.  You'll be G8.  sure you are anyway and people would be glad of your advice outside of CD.

Giving advice has always been the way in cd  and often very good advice.long may it continue
I have learned loads thanks to many people here  and have stood me in good stead in caring for my dogs.
Unfortunately  it is all to easy to take offense to the written word when none is meant something that seems to be happening more often recently Some of us are better than others in putting down what we mean .
BTW none of my comment is aimed at the op or anyone in particularly. Just rather fed up with many posts becoming  hard work

Although I’ve never wanted to show or breed from my dogs I do find it all very interesting and I have learned quite a few things since joining especially about breeding. I don’t contribute as all my knowledge is from reading not from any hands on experience. However there  are a few things I can contribute to and consequently do so. There are those with far more experience on breeding dogs as they have been involved for many years

Problems arise on forums as the written word does not contain expression and quite often seems to get misconstrued and people imagine slights that are not there. Also people who ask questions don’t often go into much detail for whatever reason, people who reply can only answer what is written and try not to assume.

I have reread Goldmali’s reply several times and I honestly cannot not see the part where she is being rude, Goldmali is rarely rude I’ve noticed.

I'm in a similar situation as I'm just starting out, though I intend to show. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time.

Breeders are very concerned about anyone they don't know wanting to breed and that's perfectly understandable if you think about how many irresponsible breeders there are.

You've asked people not to judge you because they don't know you or your life and that's true, however it's human nature to judge and the breeders you are talking to you also don't know you or your life and can only judge based on what you've written or said.

When I first started contacting breeders with my plans, many didn't contact me back. I realise now that was because of how I phased things. I had thought that what I wrote showed that I had intended to be responsible but after getting feedback from third parties I realised that wasn't the case. I said 'future breeding dog' rather than 'future breeding prospect'. My poor phasing made them think I'd breed the dog regardless of how it did in the show ring or health testing, which isn't the case.

After improving my phasing and making it clear that any possible breeding is subject to passing health testing, ect, the feedback I got was a lot more positive. I have now found an experienced breeder that is willing to work with me and I am getting a puppy from them next year (if all breeding goes to plan). They will also help in choosing any stud dog.

The problem with writing, is that you don't have the benefit of body language  and tone. It's easy to take things the wrong way, especially when someone is talking about the more negative things, even if that person is only mentioning it in an attempt to help you.
People can phase things poorly, so come across as negative and people need to point it out in order to help you.

Crazy Dog Lady

Thank you.  This is true.

Regards
A

Crazy Dog Lady:  Newbies Shouldn't Feel Judged: Having read through your post it's refreshing to see a balanced view and acknowledgment of all the fabulous advice that it given on here and which I agree exists.

Coming from a professional back ground with more than one global employer (who refer to you as Associates not Employees), the written word was key.

Over the years it was unheard of to have face to face interaction with the majority of your Counterparts. If however, Associates dished out judgemental, sanctimonious and unrealistic emails explaining their views had been misunderstood by their 'good' intentions, it wouldn't have been received well by their superiors and they would have been brought to book.

I'm appauled by the judgements, discourteous responses, name calling and often downright derogatory posts on this site.  Proof needed (with their permission I could name seven in nine weeks who have approached the Forum and left promptly within days describing their horrendous experiences of certain posters)
.
This is not the only thread in existence on CD Forum. There are many on the 'Active Topics' board - perhaps checking those would give you a wider picture.  Only a suggestion
Please feel free to correct my phrasing if it will help.

I remain as a Member because I will always feel for the underdog and despise bullying....

I think from the outside it’s very easy to see breeders as snobs who don’t want anyone else to get involved with their precious breed.

There are obviously exceptions, but most of the breeders I’ve met are passionate about their breed and desperately don’t want any of their pups to fall into the hands of anyone who might exploit them. This can very much come across as a personal rejection, when realistically the prospect of their babies becoming nothing but breeding machines is so horrifying that they want to avoid it even if it means they end up refusing to sell to someone who would be a perfectly good owner and upset them in the process.

Someone who wants to show and/or work their new puppy (and maybe breed later on if the pup proves good enough) is much more likely to be interested in the breed for its own sake rather than money. (Not saying anything about OP’s intentions here, obviously.)

Furriefriends:  This whole site is hard work especially the forum. I stick with it because I hate bullies especially those who hide behind knowledge. If some of the responses on here were judged on experience yes but judged on non critical advice - never...
Question: If someone said to you 'I would never sell you a puppy, you need agility update training or you will be too old to have enough knowledge and I suspect you were only a ticket holder in the past or before breeding you won't get there without a Show Type Mentor, would you feel open to suggestion from these people?  I'd like to add, these comments were not directed at me but a brand new member....

Silverleaf: Sorry if I am misunderstanding your point but you are going from one end of the rickter scale of protection of the Breed to hell, fire and damnation at the other end with unscrupulous breeders all included in one band of people... so unfair

I beg to differ. I've been here for years now and it is only recently that the forum has become such hardwork.
  The members many of whom are long term  respected.members and breeders  give their advice freely

People can  take.from.that advice what they see as relevant to their particular circumstances or.not as.they see fit.
If.they are unhappy then the ignore button is handy

> it is only recently that the forum has become such hardwork.

I agree furriefriends it is only recently. I could pinpoint it exactly but I will refrain from doing so.

Aspirant. Please don’t take offence to the comments on here. You will get there but the world is so full of puppy farmers and greeders nowadays (especially with COVID) that people are extremely protective of their puppies and really want to know you and be able to trust your intentions before risking their pups being bred by the wrong people.

I try to look at it like a job interview. I’d rather be thoroughly vetted than just be given the job no questions asked.

Furriefriends:  Apologies but when I first started to view the forum (without joining), the spats, fights and discontent between administrators & members was horrendous, Suddenly some one joins intrigues by it all and fights back against Bullies - long standing Members or not. Historically it is long standing, unquestioned and respected persons who have been later found to be the worst...only IMO of course,  Ignore button would allow it to go unquestioned

You are as entitled to your opinion as we all.are . I stick with mine
In the majority the forum like all forums and social media has its good points and not so good .one can take it or leave it as one wishes leaving the administration and monitoring to the admins

masajackrussell.  Bit late to appeal to another 'newbie' would't you say? the other 6 possible new members who felt insulted have gone.
This obession re BYB, PF & Greeders again?
Aspirant:There are other Forums

Furriefriends: so true

> Bit late to appeal to another 'newbie' would't you say?

Pretty sure I’ve not upset anyone other than you

Shame you didn’t follow through on your ignoring comment

Masajackrussell:  I'm not upset just, at times; shocked by your responses to others? Are you sure you haven't upset anyone? I am happy to PM the Administrators with names.  Unlike Ann R Smith when asked to provide some details last night of her claims and couldn't...Oh and I did ignore you yesterday but use the IGNORE button - no.  You would be able to continue treating newcomers like the 'great unwashed' - stay away from the elite breeders... no emojis necessary.

Posted by Hoggie
Cava14Una: giving advice is a no no on here  Sadly I agree and very sad that is the way you feel with the fantastic stuff I am sure you could share with all of those valuable 'doggie' years behind you. If you gain a scientific degree or perhaps the attitude that 'only you have a point of view'.  You'll be G8.  sure you are anyway and people would be glad of your advice outside of CD.

I never said that I felt I couldn't give advice here. I said I felt that people who had no real experience were breeding dogs and giving advice when they had no depth of knowledge to fall back on. I am not talking about anyone on here before anybody takes offence.

> Are you sure you haven't upset anyone? I am happy to PM the Administrators with names.

As far as I’m aware I haven’t and haven’t intended to. Had they told me I had I would have perhaps clarified things. Like I said to you, it is very easy for things to be misread on forums. We have to be careful how things are written and nobody is perfect at it. It has never been my intention to upset anyone. I am no expert by any means and never claim to be but I do have very strong views on what is ethical when it comes to breeding and what is not. They will not be quieted and I will bang on about puppy farmers and bybs and commercial breeders until I’m blue in the face if it helps just one person looking for a puppy to avoid those sorts.

I do think it is a little silly to get upset at what is said on a forum. I have said to you previously, if you are happy with how you do things why be bothered about others opinions. Opinions is all they are and they only affect you if you let them.

You can PM whoever you want doesn’t bother me.