Hi everyone,

Brief history.

Got a lovely Cocker Spaniel over 3 years ago from a nearby breeder.
2 endorsements with the agreement they would be lifted upon satisfactory health check.

Things went well seeing breeder often, going to shows together, talking about breeding and what stud would make the best mate.  Never any hint lifting the endorsements would be an issue.

Then we found out this person had been prosecuted by the RSPCA for dog cruelty.

Relationship went south and she blocked us on all channels.

Now our lovely girl has passed all her health checks and we desperately want a baby from her.

Sent 2 tracked letters and tried to contact her with no luck or reply.

Would like advice on how to word our case to the Kennel club and if it is worth involving a solicitor at this stage.

Any all help appreciated.

Be kind and respectful people.

Do you have a signed agreement about the conditions under which the endorsements would be lifted? Signed by you and her?

If so, send those to the KC and evidence you've met those requirements as well as evidence you've tried to contact her (your tracked letter stubs or copies of them) plus evidence of the RSPCA prosecution for good measure...and request that they lift the endorsements.

Hi,

Sadly you only really have two options.
1. Sending all the evidence you have to the kennel club and hope they rule in your favour
2. Sueing the breeder for breach of contract and claim for damages, loss of puppy sales, health testing costs (that you spend in good faith of the endorrments being lifted) ext.

Basically this all boils down to what is on the Sale Contract re the lifting of the endorsements.  And a health check isn't enough - what testing was required and has been done?   Yes, the KC has all too often lifted endorsementes (in my opinion) and I'm afraid this makes me cross because when a breeder puts endorsements on a puppy at the time of the sale, those endorsement should stand.

I appreciate that you want a puppy from your bitch, but you do realise that every time a bitch is put in whelp, her life may be at risk.    So you'd like a puppy from her (bearing in mind you may not get exactly like her - the stud's genes play a part) - what about those puppies she has when it comes to finding good permanent homes?

I wish you luck re the lifting of the endorsements but I have strong views about whether anybody other than the breeder should be able to lift them, and that I'm afraid includes the KC.

> Yes, the KC has all too often lifted endorsementes (in my opinion) 

I've not heard directly from anyone who has had endorsements lifted by the KC. I've heard plenty of third-hand 'I know someone who...' blah etc, and I'm afraid I just don't have any faith in those accounts because gossip is gossip... but first hand, someone saying 'yes, the KC lifted MY endorsement...' - nope.

>I wish you luck re the lifting of the endorsements but I have strong views about whether anybody other than the breeder should be able to lift them, and that I'm afraid includes the KC.

That is an insane opinion to hold. If someone purchases a dog and the breeder stipulates in writing conditions which need to be met for the endorsements to be lifted, then what the heck is there to have 'strong views' about?? If the breeder really doesn't want to ever lift the endorsements, then just sell the puppies endorsed with no conditions for it to be lifted.

I appreciate that you want a puppy from your bitch, but you do realise that every time a bitch is put in whelp, her life may be at risk.

I have to be honest there are some breeds (that I'm not going to mention) that the risks are very high, I would never be able to cope with all the STRESS with certain breeds yet some devoted breeders have managed to breed them for like 30 + years I have known a few, I don't know if it were STRESS related but they didn't live very long into old age either. I think too many people under estimate the long term affect breeding can have on your STRESS levels and the long term affect this will have on one's overall health and well being, that said whatever breed people choose to breed sooner or later your going to feel STRESS and sometimes it can be extremely difficult to deal with.

> <br />That is an insane opinion to hold.

OMG!!!   If I really have to explain myself .......... my 'strong views' relate to the fact that if I put endorsements on my young stock, which I did, in line with the ethics of the Basset Hound Club of Canada, initially, and now back in the UK, I do NOT expect anybody to set about lifting said endorsement behind my back, least of all the KC.   And sadly I do know of occasions when this has happened.

I'm sorry you felt you needed to jump on me - me thinks it's time for me to take some time away from this place. 

The only cases I have heard of is when they were improperly placed.

>if I put endorsements on my young stock, which I did, in line with the ethics of the Basset Hound Club of Canada, initially, and now back in the UK, I do NOT expect anybody to set about lifting said endorsement behind my back, least of all the KC.  

But the OP is not trying to lift them "behind the back" of the breeder - they have kept in touch with the breeder, met the breeder's requirements, sent registered letters to the breeder to request it and tried in other ways to contact the breeder...

Why are you judging someone for wanting to breed their dog, for "putting her life at risk" and questioning how they are going to "find homes" for the puppies they produce, when seemingly it was no problem for you to do similar with your own puppies which you bred, when you made exactly the same decision, and presumably put your own bitch's life at risk??

MamaBas, onetwothreefour, compassion:  Come on guys...I have been on the receiving end of you all at some point & I'm still here - why - because despite disagreeing with some and totally falling out with others, there is a lot of info to share and the OP approached the forum for advice which everyone has given to the best of their ability.  Hey at the end of the day the OP will decide whether the 'endorsement' scenario' works and the routes you can take if legal problems arise now or later.  Maybe start again with this topic?

The contract will be contested because the Only thing we and the breeder signed had a paragraph re they should not be used in a breeding program ect.
Since the breeder has supplied another A4 page stating the tests required and when complete the breeder will “consider” lifting the endorsements. This was while we were friends and she said nothing to worry about this should have been in the puppy pack.

I think she would allege this was supplied with the 1 paragraph contract.
Can’t say as she hasn’t contacted us since the fall out.
The dog has passed all the mentioned tests and more.

We signed a paragraph that refers to breeding programs and agreeing not to be part of one.  I pressume this means puppy farming.

Months later, while still friends, she gave us another A4 page which she stated should have been in the puppy pack.

This documents states she willl consider lifting the endorsements when xyz test has been completed.

We were assured this was nothing to worry about and had no need to panic.

XYZ and more tests were done as we want to be responsible in breeding healthy pups and wanted to work with the breeder to resolve this.

Not possivle when they just won’t talk to you.

Sassy spaniels: Think the lesson here is that if endorsements have been applied to the contract of sale then the Breeder will always have the upper hand.  Not what you want to hear I know but 'Buyer Beware'!  When all is said & done, is it more important for your girl to have a litter or more important to take out legal action as a matter of principle?  Only you can decide...soz it's been such a minefield - good luck whatever you decide

> The contract will be contested because the Only thing we and the breeder signed had a paragraph re they should not be used in a breeding program ect. ....Months later, while still friends, she gave us another A4 page which she stated should have been in the puppy pack.This documents states she willl consider lifting the endorsements when xyz test has been completed.

So by the sounds of it the original contract did state the dog was not for breeding which you signed to. The extra paper they later gave you is this signed and dated at all? If not they could claim you knew and signed the dog was not for breeding and the later pages were not sent by them and it would be your word against theirs on the extra papers.

> We signed a paragraph that refers to breeding programs and agreeing not to be part of one.  I pressume this means puppy farming.

No a breeding program is what most breeders aim to be part of.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeding_program

This means establishing a breeding line and being an ongoing part of maintaining your breed through selective breeding to maintain/improve.

Puppy farming, and the opposite the one off litter would rarely be part of a breeding program, unless one of the puppies is used to start one.

We signed a paragraph that refers to breeding programs and agreeing not to be part of one.  I pressume this means puppy farming.

Months later, while still friends, she gave us another A4 page which she stated should have been in the puppy pack.

This documents states she willl consider lifting the endorsements when xyz test has been completed.

Unfortunately on the basis of both above I don't think you have any chance to get the breeding endorsement lifted. You bought a pup where it was stated she was not for breeding, and the extra paper given later only says the breeder will consider lifting the endorsement.They could easily argue that they considered it and decided not to lift it.

Goldmali:  Maybe it would be best if a Puppy is sold with endorsements there should be no 'offer to lift such in the future'.  The Puppy is either endorsed or it isn't.  The Buyer has the choice to decide whether to favour a Breeder who doesn't place endorsements or a Breeder who has placed endorsements.  There would be no room for argument then and hopefully save a lot of stress/heartache in the future? Just a thought?

> Maybe it would be best if a Puppy is sold with endorsements there should be no 'offer to lift such in the future'.  The Puppy is either endorsed or it isn't.  The Buyer has the choice to decide whether to favour a Breeder who doesn't place endorsements or a Breeder who has placed endorsements.  There would be no room for argument then and hopefully save a lot of stress/heartache in the future? Just a thought?

Providing the requirements aent ambiguous and are put down in writing and signed as per kc guidelines there shouldn't be any argument. If the owner meets those requirements and the breeder is uncompetitive they can approach the kc. In my option endorsements can be valuable for protecting the breed.

Maybe it would be best if a Puppy is sold with endorsements there should be no 'offer to lift such in the future'.  The Puppy is either endorsed or it isn't.

I sort of do this now, after I was stung by a pet owner who was adamant he wanted to breed -long story. My contract now states that I will never lift the breeding endorsement for a dog that is kept as a pet only. This is what it says:

The breeder may agree to removal of the endorsements upon confirmation of satisfactory health test results (list of tests follows for both my breeds) and proof that the dog has competed and been placed in either shows or any form of working activity. Endorsements will not be lifted for dogs kept as pets only.

I found that to be the best solution. Nobody buying a pup will then think they can breed without further involvement in the breed, just wanting a litter isn't enough. But I've had buyers who hadn't initially planned on breeding but then got really interested in one thing or another, such as one bitch who is a certified tracking dogs (to police dog standards) and is now working professionally. She's one of very few dogs in the field she specialises in and she's also a PAT dog, (again very rare for the breed) and she's been health tested, so I'm more than happy to lift her endorsements as she is no longer "just" a pet.

> Why are you judging someone for wanting to breed their dog, for "putting her life at risk" and questioning how they are going to "find homes" for the puppies they produce, when seemingly it was no problem for you to do similar with your own puppies which you bred, when you made exactly the same decision, and presumably put your own bitch's life at risk??

I really hadn't intended to come back on this, which has gone off the OP in any case.   Suffice to say that my breeding programme, and it was an ongoing programme so I had something for the next generation to show and continue my bloodline, was rather different to the situation put forward by OP.   Of course I was aware of the risks to my bitches when I mated them but I made sure I had all the professional back-up I might have needed, available (even if on one occasion that went badly wrong and yes I did almost lose her).   Of course finding homes might have been a problem but I always had a book full of names, even if by the time I had a litter on the ground, many had gone elsewhere, or to another breed even.  I felt both issues needed pointing out, in this instance.

Trying to get the KC to lift endorsements, if the breeder won't, for whatever reason, has to be somewhat going behind the back of the breeder who used endorsements to protect their breed and more importantly, their bloodlines.   I do agree that including a clause saying endorsements will never be lifted for pets is a great idea.   One I'd certainly use if I was still breeding.

I'd like to know why you (1 - 4) feel it necessary to get at me - or perhaps I don't    And now I am going to take a time out from here.

At the time of sale you do not know whether the buyer will develop a pashion for the breed far beyond purely pet ownership.

I have had buyers determined that they were goingbto show, and picked them the most promising puppy, two seperate owners even entered a championship show, and didn't turn up.

I have had others gradually become more involved, and these.I have lifted endorsements for.

In my contract I stipulate they must be health tested to what is breed specific at the time they intendbto breed, and that they must breed in accordance with my breeds code of ethics.

Our COE covers ages for breeding, having suitable rearing facilities.

I did refuse to lift for one Health Tested bitch, whose owner had developed mental health issues, sold her home, and thought it would be OK to breed from a 5 year old maiden bitch in a Touring Caravan on a Caravan site!

No-one would allow her to use their stud, of course.

Sadly she deliberately let her get mated to a neighboring collie, while out walking her for that purpose.

Result a crossbred litter raised in the shower cubicle, which she then couldn't sell.

Breed friends and I then had to step in and persuade her to let them go, and we had a time finding suitable homes, as their characters were not typical of our breed.

Sadly I could not persuade her to relinquish the bitch.

Few years later she contacted a Stud dog owner, when the bitch was 9 years old!

I worry about her, though she was very well trained and looked after. She will/would be 12 on Christmas day.

I rely on the Ear Tatto registry, or Microchip getting her back to me if the owner dies, or has to give her up to rescue.

Not sure 2 would be productive.  She was always begging for money for this debt collector And that.

Breeding and to be used for a breeding program or so,d to be used in a breeding program suggest puppy farming to us.
Why else would the other unsigned A4 page mention the tests required for lifting of endorsements.
Plus of course verbally it was well understood we wanted a Litter to carry the line on.

And your view on a breeder who lifts the endorsements for 1 pup because the owner pretended to be her friend (no interest now endorsements lifted) but refuses to even talk to the owner of another pup (same litter) because they found out about a RSPCA prosecution for neglect.
Hardly professional or anything to do with protecting the breed.

Sassy spaniels Endorsements;  What a sorry situation you are in and I can imagine your disappointment.  Should this person\breeder have owned a dog or bred puppies if she has an RSPCA conviction for neglect?
I wouldn't be too concerned about the term 'breeding program'.  As Breeders we have waiting lists for future puppies and without a
'breeding program' in place we couldn't advise if or when a puppy might be available.  (all vetting completed on both Breeder & Prospective New Owner of course).
Would the owner of your girls sister perhaps offer you a puppy from the same line if she had a litter from her? or is she non contactable now too?

>Months later, while still friends, she gave us another A4 page which she stated should have been in the puppy pack. This documents states she willl consider lifting the endorsements when xyz test has been completed.

Was this follow-up A4 page dated? Is there any proof that it wasn't part of the original puppy pack?

I would send it all in to the KC along with the info about the RSPCA case and see if they will lift it and if they won't, talk to Trevor Cooper at DogLaw and see what he suggests. (Or perhaps talk to him first to see if you can present things to the KC more favourably.)

MamaBas, there is nothing underhand or 'behind the back' about meeting the requirements for an endorsement to be lifted - and then trying to lift them.

Might not get any money if she stuck to her guns (can't get blood from a stone) but she might agree to lift the endorrments to avoid the stress and time of going to court when the legal action papers get served. Depending on if you still have the second contract about lifting, and how it's worded. If it says 'may lift' your out of luck as it isn't a promise, it it was 'will lift' then that's an agreement

Who knows, maybe wishful thinking.

I can’t see that the second ‘contract’ means anything at all since she should have a copy that you’ve signed and agreed to rather than just handing you a sheet of paper. So I would say whatever the paragraph you signed says is what will matter. Unless you did sign a copy of the second one for her?

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/about-us/about-the-kennel-club/the-kennel-club-codes/registration-rules-and-regulations/

Scroll down and open the tab on endorsement rules.

Hi, I signed the copy with the breeding program that was dated I actually thought it was a contract of sale I think I just skimmed read it to be honest so excited to get my new puppy. Nothing was said about endorsements at time of sale. I do not want to be a pro breeder just want the 1 litter only wanted the kc because worried the puppies wouldn’t sell.