Finally we've found the pups we really liked.

Option 1 - a private seller who is genuine, Mum and Dad are healthy with 5 gen pedigree  (no Hip or Elbow test) BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme - Unaffected and inbreeding coefficient is 6.7% . (Breed average CoI is 6.6%) This is Dam's second litter with same mating (last one was a year ago) and Sire's third litter.

Option 2 - an assured breeder. Extensively health tested. Good Hip and Elbow (0) scores. Inbreeding coefficient is 12.1% . Dam's second and Sire's sixth litter in a year.

We are so confused, really want to choose assured breeder but concerned about high CoI and number of litter produced in a year.

Shall we just ignore CoI or go with the one with low CoI , no hip/elbow test (though both Dam and Sire are healthy with many FTCh in their pedigree ).

Sorry about the long post but really need some serious advise.

TIA

The number of litters of the sire is not a big issue if it's a numerically large breed.

Using the same pair to produce pups, smacks of convenience rather than selection, in the first case.

What is the reasoning behind this litter?.

The higher COI is a little less than the equivalent to first cousins (12.5%), which in humans can marry.

The fact of extensive health testing, in a breed that has issues in regard to health would swing me in favour of this mating.

The beeders should be able to give you a reasoned argument for the choice of parents, it should be more than " they have great temperaments" as that should go without saying.

Personally I would not take the heartbreaking, painful and expensive extra risk of hip and elbow problems.

A truly responsible breeder will ensure that all breed appropriate health tests are carried out to maximise the chances of the best outcomes.

Don't know what breed this is, but I would never buy a puppy whose parents were not hip/elbow scored regardless of breed. The parents may look healthy, but unless you have Xray eyes you cannot tell hip/elbow status without Xraying. The number of FT Champions in a pedigree does not guarantee good hips/elbows

As to the second part number of litters, because a stud has produced more than 1 litter doesn't mean he has been over used that depends on how numerous the breed is for starters & also what area the stud excells in. Over using is like a stud(on this site) that has been used over 150 times in 10 years & produced well over 1,000 puppies & has no activities/show results, despite being a "working" breed.

Are you sure the bitch has had 2 litters within 12 months? Have you checked on the KC site the dates of birth for the bitch's litters

As to COIs unless the dogs that are line bred to have produced non testable conditions like epilepsy more than once they are of less importance than health testing

Neither of those litters would come up to what I would be looking for.

And ignore the ABS status, all it means is that someone has checked that their paperwork looks good, there are so many ABS that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

kayenine:  ABS status  Do ABS Inspectors not do establishment visits etc? possibly makng advisorys if premises is unsuitable?  I think all aspects have to be of a certain standard before given ABS status...

Ann R Smith: Hip/Elbow/DNA Testing:  If both grandparents have really low hip and elbow scores & are clear of important DNA Tests, would that make a difference?

I'm not Ann but no, it wouldn't for me.  Hip dysplasia is not straightforward, and parents with excellent hip scores can still throw up pups with terrible hips.  Elbows I'm not up to speed on but the hips would be enough for me to walk away from untested parents.  Any dog to be bred from should be scored.

Thank you all for your inputs, much appreciated. Sorry did not mention the breed is Lab Retriever.
We are still in dilemma but more inclined towards the assured breeder. Its such a vast topic to dig in and as a first time puppy buyers we are overwhelmed with the information available on internet.

From all the advise I've got so far, it seems Health Tests are certainly important aspect to consider before jumping into any decision.

The hip and elbow scores would definitely  steer me to that breeder if I bought from either. Especially in a breed that u are considering

Elbow dysplasia is more genetically caused than hips, this is why both should be screened especially as the BVA recommend only breeding from 0 elbows for the same reason.

All dogs should be fully health tested, just because antecedents were health tested doesn't mean their offspring will be better/equal to them

But the more generations and relatives that have good scores the better the likelihood that a higher proportion of future generations will have good results.

So every breeding animal should be fully health tested and paired appropriately.

There is no good excuse for not testing.

Ignorance is probably the worst excuse, as no-one should breed without extensive knowledge.

The main real reason is money.

Health testing is expensive, and tests may reveal the dog/bitch is unsuitable for breeding on health grounds, let alone anything else.

While people are prepared to buy poorly bred puppies, the people breeding them will continue to cut corners, and dogs needlessly suffer, causing hearbreak and expense to their owners down the line.

Brainless:  Makes sense to test  :  Absolutely! Avg waiting time for hip & elbow results is 12 - 14 weeks.   Avg waiting time for DNA Results from KC has gone from 34 days to 45 days & KC Registration is now taking up to 8 weeks.  KC Official Emails are being sent out.  Ofcourse clear results and very good elbow hip scores will have a bearing on the parents results.  Could I just be reminded of a previous post regarding percentages of affected & non affected puppies in a Litter if one parent is CLEAR and the other CARRIER please?

> Could I just be reminded of a previous post regarding percentages of affected & non affected puppies in a Litter if one parent is CLEAR and the other CARRIER please?

If one parent is CLEAR and one is a CARRIER all puppies will have a 50% chance of being a CARRIER, none will be AFFECTED

I'm very sceptical re ABs, for one.   Secondly HD (and perhaps EB?) can be caused by environment - incorrect rearing as well as genetics although if there is a predisposition to less than normal hips, environment would play a part.

I worry about the coefficients thing.  Many breeders actually do line-breed, but also know when there's a need to 'come out'.  Provided they know what they are doing, in other words, I'd not damn any breeder just because the numbers don't add up.

As we only ever bred for our next generation, more often than not we only took one, perhaps two litters from any of our bitches.   I believe if you don't get what you want the first time (provided you get a good number of puppies) then there's no point taking endless litters, especially from the same sire.   It's different with males re how many litters he's sired.

Given the breed, I'd want to see good hip (and elbow) scores in the parents, to avoid unnecessary pain to the dog as he gets older or even as a youngster - my nephew bought a Choc. Lab from clearly a BYB and the poor dog had both hips and one elbow operated on by the time he was almost a year old.   I did wonder about doing the surgery that soon but he was insured.  However, the dog was never really 'sound' and didn't live to the usual age for his breed.

It's up to you - and which of the two breeders YOU feel most comfortable dealing with.   This relationship has to be a good one, going forward.   Remembering always that you are buying a living being, not a new car or a bag of sugar!!   The best laid plans can go wrong, and breeders can make mistakes.   What matters is what they do about any mistakes that show up in their breeding programme.   Unfortunately I've been aware of this with my most recent loss.

Brainless:  Thank  you for your response.

There is absolutely no way I would even consider buying a Labrador without hip and elbow testing being done on both parents. It just doesn't even make it to the 'consideration' phase and shouldn't even be an option for you, let alone something you are considering. Jeeze... Just wait longer! Just this year I've had a 5 month puppy in my classes already diagnosed with bilateral hip dysplasia and going to need surgery on both hips. Neither parents hip scored. Just don't even consider it. And what about eye testing and DNA testing?? (On both litters?)

12% is too high a COI personally and there's no way that's desirable either. It might be inevitable in some breeds where COIs are that high and it's impossible to find anything lower, but Labs have an average of 6.5% so it shouldn't be hard to find a lower COI litter.

You are talking about one of the most popular breeds in existence. You can do much better than either of these litters. Look harder, pay more, drive further, wait longer - whatever.

> Could I just be reminded of a previous post regarding percentages of affected & non affected puppies in a Litter if one parent is CLEAR and the other CARRIER please?

In conditions inherited as Autosomal Recessives no affected offspring can be produced when at least one parent is genetically clear.

Two copies of the faulty gene are needed for Affected individuals.

Offspring get one copy from each parent.

Clear/Normal parents can only pass on a Normal copy.

A Carrier can randomly pass on a Normal or Abnormal copy ( similar to how sex ratio works in theory 50/50, but you could still get all boys or all girls).

So in theory half pups will have 2 normal genes and be clear, and half will have one Normal and one Abnormal and be Carriers.

A Clear Parent to an Affected parent can only produce Carriers, as each pup can only inherit an Abnormal gene and a Normal gene.

Carrier to Carrier, Carrier to Affected, and obviously Affected to Afected matings should never normally be carried out as they will almost inevitably result in some (and in last case all) affected offspring.

Theotetical numbers for:

Carrier x Carrier = 50% Carrier, 25% Clear, 25% Affected.

Carrier x Affected = 50% Carrier, 50% Affected.

The breed wasn't evident when I gave my answer.

I agree with a numerous breed like Labradors I would want to know what the overiding reason was for that particular pairing.

In terms of the risk to the individual offspring at this COI, as opposed to their impact on the breed it should not be a high risk.

Higher COI's lead to inbreeding depression, reduced fertility and increased likelihood of things running in the family (good or bad) coming through.

Around this level for me would be about as far as I would tolerate.

The number of full generations the calculation is based on matters here a lot.

The high COI litter is from Full health tested parents according to poster, and I'd be interested if it really is all available labrador related tests, not just ABS required.

And ignore the ABS status, all it means is that someone has checked that their paperwork looks good, there are so many ABS that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

That's simply not true. You cannot register puppies unless the parents have had the required health tests for the breed. (Yes I know it's seldom enough, but it's more than a non ABS must do, which is nothing). They check your dogs, your home, feedback from puppy buyers -very little is paperwork really, especially as they ask for all paperwork to be emailed to them before they visit to assess you, so that the time spent on checking everything else can be maximised. Even so the visit tends to take around 3 hours. And they notice things. Stuff you can't fake, like dogs' temperament, body condition including muscle etc etc.

Would I right in asking if this is a chocolate litter? Labs were our family dogs for years until our last boy died last year aged nearly 14. He had very little arthritis - he was from long lines of hip scored relatives but only parents were elbow scored. He actually died of thyroid cancer that was suspected secondary cancer, he had xrays with shadows on the bone but this was never confirmed.

I do not have this breed now (we kept another breed too, I recently have acquired one of these instead) but previously I did extensive research into another show line chocolate and found that the average chocolate COI in the UK was far higher with many of the same dogs/lines being used to sire litters. I know there are far more experienced people in this breed on this forum so perhaps they can enlighten me!

If you are super keen to have a puppy ASAP I would choose the Assured Breeder, at least the testing is there. As others have said, non testing is just not worth the heartache. Have you considered the breeder who has not done the testing has purposefully avoided it because they are aware of issues in the lines or previous matings? Hip and elbow scoring costs under £500 to do (I’m based in Hampshire and this was recently quoted by my vet for sedation, xrays plus BVA fees) or maybe less depending on where you live.

With the COI you are looking at, you just need to be aware that it is accumulative. You might want to understand from this breeder How well they know the lines, can they share more pedigree information and whether those lines were tested? COI is there as a risk assessment tool, I would not be too concerned if this breeder is happy to support your enquiry and work with you to understand the lines and what health testing exists before just the parents. It will demonstrate you are caring and not just desperate for any puppy.

I am not a breeder (I hope to be in a few years) but my own opinion is that you would not expect to buy clothes that had been put together with thread or fabric the retailer knew could fail, but didn’t bother to check. Full DNA panels plus hip and elbow scoring, and eye testing, can all be done for less than the price you would expect to pay for a puppy (pre-Covid prices!). Sellers should be respecting buyers no matter the product, in this case why would it be ok to potentially play with people’s lives as that is what dogs become to us.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Just to add my nephew bought his Choc.Lab at a time when all the yupees wanted this colour/breed so all the BYBs jumped on the bandwagon.   And he and his family found one. 

Having met a lovely chocolate lab puppy with both hips utterly gone by 9 months old and seen his pain, his families distress and the horrific vet bills no way would I get a breed known for dodgy hips without these tests.  It was dreadful, he cried trying to play in garden let alone do normal exercise.

On top of hips, elbows and eyes I would want to see extensive dna testing too for which the breed needs so in this case neither litter. The option one with 0 health testing is an absolute no no as we know that Labs suffer from HD and ED. They need all the tests done. I would find a breeder you like, like their dogs and they do the full range of health tests with good results and get on a waiting list.

https://www.thelabradorsite.com/health-screening-for-labrador-diseases/

This covers all the health tests breeders should be doing whether working or show lines.

While I rarely miss reading a post on here, I rarely comment, but in this case I will.
For a labrador, I would not, for any reason, buy a puppy from parents without health tests.
But I actually just wanted to comment on Brainless's comment "Using the same pair to produce pups, smacks of convenience rather than selection, in the first case." I would not necessarily agree. In two cases, I have been so pleased with a litter, that I have repeated a mating, and if I saw that someone else had done this, I would be interested in the outcome of the first litter and see this as a positive rather than than it being done for convenience. I'm sure that in this particular case though, that if they have not even bothered to do health testing , that you may be right, but I wouldn't generalise a repeat breeding as such. Hope this makes sense, I'm drinking wine

Gundogs:  Repeat Matings: All good poyniant responses:  Maybe the wine is helping?  I too want to keep intact bloodlines and have mated my stud dog with my girls more than once last year.  It is such a shame that recommendations, outcomes of fantastic litters & fabulous updates can't be included on the forum (would be seen as advertising).
When as a breeder you have had real accolades - you would want to generate from the same successful matings - just don't get it?

Hoggie: Gundogs: Maybe the wine is helping? always :-)

>The high COI litter is from Full health tested parents according to poster, and I'd be interested if it really is all available labrador related tests, not just ABS required.

The tests done (all clear and satisfactory)

Dam -  Eye, Hip, Elbow, SD2, PRCD-PRA, CNM, MCD, DM, HNPK, HUU, Cystinuria 

Sire - Eye, Hip, Elbow, SD2, PRCD-PRA, CNM, EIC, HNPK, DM

Problem with repeat matings is they bring nothing new to the table (gene pool), as a rule.

Unless of course the first did not give the sex needed to move a breeding program forward.

It is also from a bitch owners point of view a waste of a bitches breeding potential.

I did a repeat mating only once, primarily because at the time there was nothing I could mate her to that wasn't closely related or did not involve doubling up on potential prcd-PRA or Glaucoma Carriers, as we had no DNA tests at the time.

I used an imported stud I was involved with bringing into UK, with her in mind.

He sired 2 of her 3 litters, the first was just 4 pups, with a Ch and RCC winner, only the Ch breeding on.

The second produced an Irish Ch Dual CC winning male, and a bitch the mother of 2 Am Ch.

Her last litter to another Import produced an Ir Ch and CC winning bitch, the mother of a top winner  All breeds in UK.

I would much rather have been able to use a different male.

The problem with Repeat Matings, especially if successful is even worse than popular sires.

Both narrow Gene pools, and obviously successful dogs are more likely to be bred on from.

We all want a piece of that success, but the fewer different genes that go into the gene pool the more loss of genetic variation.

Your much better putting that good producing bitch to different males for her litters, therby hopefully producing offspring with more varied genome.

With stud dogs an owner should aim to allow his use to as few closely related (to each other) bitches, for the same reason.

We need to be looking at our breeds as a whole.

The fully tested litter would not put me off, especially if pup not destined for breeding.

If it is then you will potentially have a narrower choice of future breeding partners.

In the next generation an outcross producing low COI should be the aim.

If those tests have all been completed and all with food results when this is the one I would be happy with providing temperaments and type are also correct.
Even buying to breed on from that COI to me is low and I've no issue with repeat matings as I've seen fabulous dogs from 1st and repeat matings, if they have produced so well the 1st time then a repeat for me is not a bad thing especially if the offspring have since been scored with good results too prior to the repeat mating taking place.
What I don't like to see if a breeder with multiple bitches and owning a stud dog and putting him to all their bitches once or twice, I don't see the need for that other than its cheaper as no stud fee but that is very common practice in commercial breeding which I would advise people to steer away from.

Looking at the puppies page, I noticed the majority of litters are reserved, & the price seems to be £2500. I looked at last years price on the Lab page here, £938.
Are people mad ? If say, both parents were FtCh from a long line of the same, then perhaps, but for an average bred dog.
I think this virus is affecting people in strange ways.

What I'd love to know is where the heck people get the money to pay covid prices, after 7 months of lockdown and then restrictions.  It's baffling.

In my breed there has never been a differentiation in price based on titles.

Yes prices have gone mad.

My own opinion and experience is that the reputable breeders have not hiked their prices, other than to account for costs increases and difficulties due to Covid.

Most of these had postponed litters.

where the heck people get the money to pay covid prices, after 7 months of lockdown and then restrictions.

Just being a grumpy old cynic - I appreciate that many are genuine but how many of these puppy buyers are the same ones protesting that their kids cannot get free meals during school holidays?

Nikita:  Puppy Advice:  Think the pricing has increased because a) No. of Puppies are not available vs the no. of new owners has increased ten fold (don't quote - just an assumption).b) Many many people are now working from home and will be for the forseable future so feel they are in need of companionship from a pet at home to eleviate the
feeling of having no interaction with work colleagues and I believe this trend will continue...batton down the hatches because as Breeders we will be inundated with enquiries
from totally unsuitable new owners!

tatty-ead: People working from home are still earning their salaries so could probably have afforded a new addition before hand.  Difference, they are at home all day and now think they are in a suitable position to have a new addition.  Yes that was a very mean comment about kids & free meals - some of these parents can't feed themselves either!

Agree we must not draw parallels between those who need fsm and that those may be the same people who are buying expensive dogs . Most unfair

Furriefriends  Yip such a sad situation - we just can't imagine

> And ignore the ABS status, all it means is that someone has checked that their paperwork looks good, there are so many ABS that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.<br /><br />That's simply not true. You cannot register puppies unless the parents have had the required health tests for the breed.

Sadly I know of several cases where 'required' tests simply haven't been done but litters have been registered to ABS breeders anyway.

Sadly I know of several cases where 'required' tests simply haven't been done but litters have been registered to ABS breeders anyway.

I don't see how, without exceptional circumstances. I had a bitch fall pregnant this year, just before lockdown, she hadn't had a season for 19 months and lived with a male dog the entire time, then all of a sudden she was pregnant. We had still seen no signs of a season and at first I blamed my husband for feeding her too much and making her fat....but no, just a week or so before she was due she was confirmed pregnant and had a small litter for the breed. Her eye test was out of date and obviously during lockdown I couldn't get it done. I had to ask permission from the KC, explain the situation, put it in writing to them that I agreed to do the eye test as soon as possible before they would register the litter, and I had to put it in writing to the puppy buyers as well, and get an extra signature from them for that. Had I not done all that AND then got the eye test done (which I did when the pups were 5 months old) the KC said they could cancel the registrations.

> Sadly I know of several cases where 'required' tests simply haven't been done but litters have been registered to ABS breeders anyway. <br /><br />I don't see how, without exceptional circumstances.

Several litters where a required DNA test hadn't been done. Breeder said they didn't know so KC said that was fine. Another litter with neither parent tested for a required test, KC said oops we didn't spot that. Their system should have prevented them but it's all manual checks and they slip through.

That is bad. Should not be allowed to happen and should not be possible to happen. The KC really should have taken strong action.

As someone who has owned gundogs pretty much all my life I would never buy a lab without good hip and elbow scores from it's parents. So echo Gundogs response. Seen too many labs crippled before their time.

I'd never buy any dog of any breed whose parents had not been Hip Scored and eye tested, and tested for all testable breed specific issues.

Thank you all. I'm glad that I asked a question in this forum. Certainly, it was a silly decision to buy a puppy with no health tests.
So the only option to consider is to buy from a breeder who seems all legit, emailed registration paperwork and council license as well. The breeder is not charging unreasonable price (like many others) and claims that they only breed for health and temperament. Except from High CoI, I can't find any negative point.

However, the second lockdown has brought things to a standstill as we can't visit Mum and puppies and only option is to keep in touch via video calls.

Still pondering....

If they are licenced how frequently do they breed and do they breed to show or work their dogs rather than another person flooding the pet market, in other words are they breeding to the breed standard or working ability?

Suejaw; how frequently do they breed and do they show or work their dogs: Not quite sure where the relevance is if there are no health tests done? If every puppy ever bred was only to comply with breed standard or working ability, there would be no 'pet puppies' available....