I'd be grateful for advice please. I could kick myself as I am not a novice dog owner and should have known better, so please try not to judge me too harshly.
Back in June, I was asked for a 15% deposit to go on a waiting list for a puppy not yet born, and with no pregnancy in the pipeline. Reluctant as I was to do this, I went with it because this particular breeder seems highly regarded and their pups very sought after. Due to being 'messed about' in the past, they will not place anyone on their list without a deposit. Although not a KC assured breeder, this seemed the only way to have a pup of this particular breed which are not easy to find. Unfortunately I cannot mention which breed as everything would be too readily identifiable!
I was asked for bank transfer, as credit cards (my preferred method for the safeguards) were not accepted. After paying, I received an emailed receipt simply specifying that I was now on the waiting list but with no further details. There was no mention of it being non returnable on my receipt but this has since been added on their website.
I have not been able to visit the premises because of the pandemic situation.
Since my deposit was placed, I have never received a single update or courtesy call to let me know what is going on. I still have no idea whereabouts I am on the waiting list or how pups are even allocated.  I tried asking over the phone but got an evasive (although friendly) reply. The only 2 communications we have had were instigated by me.
I had been vaguely 'promised' a pup around the end of this year. There have since been 2 litters born recently. On phoning to politely request to be allocated a pup, I was again given an evasive reply, all the pups were allocated to others and I have heard nothing since. That would be fine if only I knew where I stood but I have been unable to find out.
As I was getting nowhere, I decided to cut my losses and look elsewhere. By a stroke of luck, I found and reserved a beautiful pup from another breeder who sent me videos, photos and immediately invited me to visit their premises whenever I liked without me even having to ask.
Would I be justified in trying to get my deposit back, or at least part of it? After all, the breeder has not had to incur any expenses as there was no puppy for me. I do feel that the breeder, having taken my money, had some responsibility to at least keep me updated. Had they done so, I would not have looked elsewhere.
Do you think it would be unfair of me to try for a refund under these circumstances, and if not, how best to go about it?
Thank you.

Sandee:  Deposit Refund What a shame this experience has blighted what should be such an exciting time!  Think you maybe on a 'sticky wicket' here as there seems to be nothing in writing re when deposit was received how much it was, what it was a deposit for or indeed any timescale entered into. All I can suggest is that you continue to comunicate on a friendly level explaining why you felt you have had to look elsewhere and that the deposit this Breeder is holding should be returned as it is part of the budget you put aside to pay for your new Puppy in full. Did you pay cash or by bank transfer?  If the latter, at least you would have a paper trail of payment.  I must admit I haven't come across a Breeder who enters into a financial situation with any new potential owner before they have visited the Litter and and all parties are happy with receipts given. Apologies I cannot see a legal way around this unless the small claims court could help as they are relatively inexpensive compared to full blown legal action and all the unpleasantness that may bring.  Hope it all works out for you.

I'm afraid you may have to say goodbye to your deposit monies.   You could take legal advice (and even discuss this with the KC if only to get this brhaviour 'out there', if these are well known breeders) because this is so obviously a scam or unethical at best.   You could send a registered letter stating that you are demanding a full refund of your deposit or you will start legal proceedings (Small Claims Court?)   However,  very unfortunately for you, the owness was on you to 'get it all in writing' including the situation re whether the deposit you paid was refundable, and under what circumstances.

It goes without saying that nobody should ever part with money, a deposit, to merely go on a waiting list!   The world has gone nuts and this Virus seems to have brought all the nasties in the world out of the woodwork. 

I suppose, knowing where these people live (?) you could send them notice that you will be visiting them on such and such date/time, to collect your deposit monies - which can still be done in many areas, despite Covid 19.

Thanks for bringing this latest to the notice of those who need to know what's going on out there.

ps.  I'd not looked at this 'the other way round' - ie if it doesn't say the deposit isn't 'non-refundable' then it could be assumed it IS refundable    Go for it!!

@ Hoggie - payment was apparently made via Bank Transfer.

Well as long as theres nothing in writing to say the deposit is non refundable then you woukd be entitled to your money back as the breeder has no proof its non refundable ( if its not in writing) . however it will be up to the breeder to give it back if not you will need to go to a small claims court and try to win your money back.

I would never give money to go on a list and would not want to go on a list without meeting both breeder and dogs and living conditions.

I would just explain why you feel you shoukd get your deposit back as there was no proper communication or updates on were on the list you were and that you have found a pup elsewhere. If not go to court if you really want your refund.

How much is the 15% deposit? Are we talking £100 or £500 or what?

I would say that it's all a bit of a weird situation. From the breeder's perspective, I can see that it's not really possible to predict whether matings will be successful and even commit to breeding certain dogs at certain times, let alone know how many pups there will be - so it may not be possible to say in advance when you will definitely have a pup.

But the deposit should be refundable given those circumstances. Ie - if you don't like what you're offered. Otherwise you're committing to having a puppy without even knowing who its parents will be, when you pay the deposit!!

Call Trevor Cooper at Dog Law and have a quick phone consult with someone there. I think it's about £50 to get legal advice over the phone. And yes, there's the small claims court...

But firstly you need to contact the breeder and explain your situation in detail - how you've waited, how you've often asked when there might be a puppy for you, and no answer has been forthcoming and so on... and give them an opportunity to offer you the deposit back.

onetwothreefour:  Deposit Refund:  Weird Deposit Amount:  Some sites now advertising on a Breeders behalf offer a 'safety deposit scheme' similar to that of Private Landlord's a few years back.  Funnily enough - the one's I have spotted are suggesting 15%.  Don't know if this is a good or a bad thing.  Certainly would have safe guarded the OP in this case.

Sarakingsley:  Deposit Refund:  Think the OP mentioned that the Breeder added 'non refundable' to their site advert at a later date.  Not sure if this can be proven as users
can edit their advert at any time during it's run.

I think it is wrong to take deposits to go on a waiting list.

I only take a 10% deposit once pups are born and I am allocating available puppies, so that everyone knows where they stand, and I can quickly get those who have missed out onto another breeders list in a timely fashion.

Mine is a numerically small breed with less than a dozen litters registered a year (just 7 litters, amounting to 37 pups last year).

Litters are often Feast or Famine.

Thank you all so much for your detailed and helpful replies.

My emailed receipt was dated and simply confirmation of the amount of my deposit (£250) towards a puppy - no mention of the balance, although I was told it verbally. It was about "right" for that breed, not over the top. No mention either of what would happen next or at what stage they would be contacting me. Of course I understand and accept that these things are not predictable, but as I mentioned, 2 litters have since been born, yet I was bypassed and fobbed off, despite asking. Again, even that would have been fine if I was being kept informed. Just refusing me at the outset would have been preferable to this.
It just seemed that they didnt think I was worth bothering with once they had the deposit.

I did try assured breeders first and even tried rescue, but no go.

This breeder doesn't advertise anywhere as they don't need to - prospective owners have to apply to *them*, and there are a great many, so there was no deposit safety scheme involved (I've found that advertisers often don't tend to use that much anyway - I imagine it costs them extra?) and no safeguards.
I've had dogs before but as you all say, never have I known any breeder to ask for money to go on a waiting list but it was some years ago, so for all I knew, the protocol could have changed since then.

I know I sound really stupid (I obviously am!) but they really do have a glowing reputation with many excellent reviews which was why I wasn't too concerned at first. But now that 4 months have passed with nothing but radio silence (emails are ignored although they are happy to chat on the phone) I feel I've had enough, I'm quite angry and will be writing a polite but firm letter requesting a refund. They are quite open about their address, they've never attempted to hide their full contact details.
My instinct is that this person knows they have a breed that is very much in demand and are not very organised, professional or businesslike, as opposed to being an outright scammer.

Selling at £4500? I'm itching to know the breed. I know I tend to live in the past, but that seems an awful lot to pay for an unseen puppy.

Where did you get £4500 from?
I said 15 per cent, not 50!

Sandee:  Deposit Refund:  Don't think beating yourself up will be bothering the Breeder so as some other Posters have said, make them feel just as upset as you.  Do they live in an area where Licensing is required? Not sure if everywhere in the UK is subject?  If so Trading Standards may be able to help. It's the only other thing I can think of.  In the meantime just concentrating on this new Puppy you have in the pipeline will be brilliant!

Hoggie- missed the bit about the website.

OP - in that case if it now states that its a non refundable deposit then the breeder would need to prove at court that this was already on the website before she\he took your deposit. If it only went up after your deposit then it wont apply to you.

I would still try to contact the breeder to kindly but firmly ask for your deposit back but if it says that on the web i think it likley that you will be fobbed off and told its non refundable.

Hoggie - Thank you - yes, you are right. 
I'm over the moon and can't wait! He's only a couple of weeks old, so a little while to go yet until I can bring him home, but I will visit.

I'm not sure if this original breeder is licensed but I've a feeling they are probably not. Yes, their local council does require licensing but there doesn't seem to be any kind of register to check, as there is with say, Trade Associations.

The breeder I am going with *is* licensed and they display their number, whereas the original one does not.

Sarakingsley - thank you, I definitely plan to do that.

I would suggest a chat with trading standards might be useful then a recorded delivery /registered letter politely asking for a refund so you have paper trail . If that isnt forthcoming small claims court.

As for licensing it will depend on what their local council requires and how many litters they breed  . I believe their local council will have the register of who is licenced .

Personally while you are trying to get money back from them suggesting you may report them would not  be the way to go. Keep it polite and "friendly "  There is an outside chance you may get the deposit returned.
What's the saying ? you catch more files with honey than vinegar  :)

I do hope the puppy you are hoping for now all turns out well. It isnt a good time to find healthy well bred puppies at reasonable prices

Sandee.
Bad maths, thats where! Sorry.

CaroleC

£1666.66' would make £250 = 15%

Its certainly an odd figure but doubt if that has anything to do with the way the breeder is behaving

I would send a letter recorded delivery requesting your deposit back, either they send it back to you or you will go to small claims. Give them a time frame to sort it and give the way you want to be paid too ie your bank details for a bank xfer or PayPal etc. 

I have heard of someone in my breed asking for a deposit for puppies before even knowing a bitch is pregnant or before they are born and this before any vetting has taken place on either side.
People who contacted me for advice asked me if this was the norm, I say no way. If they ask for a deposit this is after vetting has been done and the litter is on the ground and you've seen them in person too.

Hopefully they will listen to the letter and send it back to you.

Suejaw:  Deposit Refund: Totally agree with no deposits or any financial exchange before Puppies are actually here.  Could I just add that morally I don't feel any monies should be exchanged until a visit has taken place and all parties agree that that next step should be taken,

@Brainless - Yes £1600 (roughly 15%).

@Suejaw - thanks that's exactly what I'm going to do.

I've been doing a bit of digging around today and discovered the other side of the coin to this breeder who seems to have quite a little scam industry going on. At least 10 other people have had exactly the same experience as me; there are probably more, as this has been going on for years. Some have demanded a refund (and actually got one;) others have been too reluctant, upset or scared to fight for their money and just want to put the whole sorry saga behind them and move on.

This individual has been charging deposits ranging from £50 to £250, sometimes no deposit at all, but everyone has ended up with the same end results - no puppy, no contact and a cock and bull story when chased up.
The saddest stories were a related by a couple of ladies whose elderly dogs of the same breed had recently passed away and they were looking forward to a new puppy with great enthusiasm, only to pay their deposits and then hear nothing at all for 6 months, a year..... When finally chased up, this despicable person would either tell them that there had been no pregnancy after all, or their puppies had 'died!'
Some people do actually get puppies but they have had issues.
There are also accounts of this breeder acting as an agent and ripping off other breeders who use their stud dogs.
This rabbit hole seems very deep and I'm going down it!
No way are they getting away with this.

By the way, does anyone know if taking deposits on non-existent puppies is actually legal? I cant find any info on it.

Try trading standards .as dogs are seen in the same way as buying a sofa for example they may beable to give u accurate answer.
Otherwise try trevor cooper from dog law.  His telephone consult is very good ,charged at premium rate but the maximum time used to be 20 mins so u know what u are spending.  I have found it very useful

Sandee:  Deposit Refund:  I don't think there is a legal requirement re making deposits on Puppies who are not physically on this planet,  There are many, many breeders who have 'Reserve/Waiting Lists' and speak with possible new owners regularly before even conception/mating takes place and if they are entering into a financial agreement then IMO  THIS SCAMMER needs to be stopped!  There is an option at the top of this page to 'private message - little envelope symbol'.  You are reluctant to 'name & shame' which I understand but due to your further findings, I can only advise that I would be happy to hear from you about who this person is as I assume messaging any of us on here would be.  (sorry didn't want to speak for anyone else).  The info goes no further than the individual you have messaged so no legal problems will arise.  We all need to speak up in order to make change.  Sorry but this makes my blood boil!

This is fraud. Need reporting to the Police by everyone

I agree with Hoggie , this is a scammer and i will happily help anyway i can and i also would be happy for you to Private message me so you can tell me what breed this is and breeder. My best friend is a lawyer so can ask him for you but I'll need more detail to give him.

I agree this breeder needs to be stopped. It boils my blood too.

I wouldn't call them a breeder or even a puppy farmer.
Just a plain dog dealer laundering money out of people.
Hopefully you'll get your money back.

Thank you all.
I will be taking this much further, no two ways about it, and report it to everyone relevant.

jogold:  Breeder/Puppy Farmer/Money Launderer: I would just call him a plain Criminal hiding behind a curtain of respectability. (debatable I know) but certainly worth the attention of Authorities.

Hopefully they will get caught Hoggie and get what they deserve.

Jogold:  Deposit Refund:  Reply received so many of us on the case X

Have you contacted the revant breed club/s to see if they are aware of this person?

Breed clubs will know who the bad eggs exploiting their breed are.

If by any chance this oerson is a club member, they need to be made aware, and the person named and shamed in the breeds community.

@Brainless
This breeder is not a member of the breed association - they look on it with disdain.
It was members of the breed association who started a dedicated Facebook group for people to exchange experiences about this breeder, so they are aware of it. I discovered this today.

Oh I didn't expect she'd be a member, but breed clubs often know who the cowboys are.

It is why I always advise those looking for pups to check with the breed club.

They will often be able to advise of a breeders reputation, and who to best keep away from.

They can advise what are usual protocols, price range, required and adviseable health screening, breeding practices etc.

Another avenue to try is HMRC from a tax point of view, they are often far more effective than Police or Trading Stds .... think of how they got Al Capone

I actually think I know what breed and breeder you are referencing here, having admired the breed for a very long time If it is the same one. From what I understand, this person has tried to have the monopoly on the breed and whilst claims to have dogs living in a family setting, keeps them in a garage with little exercise, despite demanding this whole application system for prospective owners. I would be calling HMRC, Trading Standards and writing a letter to the council. The problem with the latter is that unless there are more than two litters a year, unless it breaches their own local policy, nationally three litters is the licensing threshold. Good luck, £250 is a lot of money, I hope you can use your receipt to threaten legal action and frighten them a bit to get some action.

Also, why can’t you post a review on their social media page? That might spur some action.

@74Alexandra - Thank you, Yes I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same breeder. I now know enough about his modus operandi to realise that he cannot even be described as a true breeder, but some kind of self-appointed 'broker' for the breed (I really don't know what the term is for whatever the heck he's doing, but it doesn't seem a million miles away from puppy farming just that particular breed, purely to line his pockets.)
He breeds from his own dam(s) - and seems to also receive visiting dams for mating with his stud dogs. I don't know how many litters he himself actually breeds per year but he is cunning enough to stay just within the law. He also rents out his stud dogs and as I understand it, takes it upon himself to allocate the resulting litters where the dams are not even owned by him?? Again, I don't know what the arrangements are and his role in them, but I'm sure the authorities would take a pretty dim view of them..
A couple of weeks ago, I sent him a letter asking for my deposit to be refunded and also emailed him a copy of it, but unsurprisingly, no reply or refund as yet. I've also reported it as a scam to my bank who are investigating; I'm expecting to hear back with a decision within a week or so but not holding out too much hope there as I paid it voluntarily.
If no joy with the bank, my next move will be a Letter Before Action with a deadline and then if still no refund, the Small Claims Court.
I have found out that he is not licensed with the council, apparently not even registered as a business but regardless, appears to be in breach of Lucy's Law by selling litters of puppies he has not personally bred. However, I'm not sure how to prove this.
Yes I will for sure be reporting this Greeder to every single authority I can, but for now it seems prudent to hold fire until my situation is resolved one way or another, by which time I hope to have some more concrete facts.
I belong to a private social media group that was set up by concerned people involved in the welfare of this breed, precisely to warn  against unethical breeders in general and this one in particular, plus to exchange experiences, as many have fallen victim to this scammer. Some lost their money altogether, just keen to put the whole sorry saga behind them, and others received refunds only after applying pressure. This person comes across as genuine, knowledgeable, friendly and plausible.
Rest assured I'm not giving up on this. I am not only angry but also concerned for a beautiful and small-numbers breed being abused in this way.
I cannot post anything to his social media page as I left his group as soon as I realised I'd been scammed. If anyone posts any kind of negative comment on his page, as admin he immediately removes it and gets nasty, although he has no power to remove comments on Google reviews and again, I will be doing this once my personal situation is resolved.

I hope that once your legal dispute is settled you can go public on some other format so that people are aware. I heard of a blind puppy (not in the breed you are discussing) that was sold and the breeder was able to gag the buyer, they are still selling puppies without checks today. Good luck!

74Alexandra: This particular breeder has been highlighted to 4 of us Forum Posters and the problem has been that there is no time specific agreement on when sandee should expect an available Puppy.  Their social media page is read by so many and for every bad review, all of a sudden a dozen good ones will appear by supposed relevant followers.  Last I heard was that the OP was sending a polite but firm registered letter asking for the deposit back and if no joy, next was the small claims court. Just hope it's not happening to anyone else out there!

@74Alexandra
Thank you. It's sickening to hear that all too many are such greedy scum with no regard to the distress they cause to dogs and buyers.
Absolutely no way will he, or anyone else be gagging me! I dropped the ball initially by sending a deposit but I won't be silenced. Money is of secondary importance to getting these activities stopped.

@Hoggie - I did send that letter off, plus a copy via email but radio silence ever since. I didn't really expect a reply to the email certainly, because he has only ever responded (by return!) in regard to the deposit. I received his paying-in details at the speed of light!
More people have joined that 'anti' group on social media asking for advice on where to buy a puppy. All had been led to believe that he was the main or indeed, sole source for this breed - that's how much he has managed to infiltrate and gain this enormous following.
And it's been going on for years, apparently unchallenged.

Sandee:  Well done for keeping this in people's minds and great you are doing things in the right manner.  Bad Publicity is key to making these 'criminals' answerable and here's hoping more advertising sites adopt the 'safe deposit' option for Buyers which safeguards from fraudsters & weeds out those who have no bank accounts or do not wish to provide proof of identity.  Not perfect but a start!!!

I’ve actually taken deposits for my pups, before visits
But mainly due to covid preventing early visits, I advised people who were interested and that completed my screening process that they were unable to visit until at least 5 weeks and that I prefer they visit before committing
All of them said they prefer to pay a deposit to secure their right
So what I did, was wrote it into the contract that both of us could effectively pull out immediately after the first visit if anything was unsuitable, on either side ,  but at the visit if all ok ok both sides they would sign the general terms and conditions , after which, if they pull out It’s  non refundable
I’ve been in nearly daily contact with my buyers sending photos and videos
On the other side of the fence, when I was a buyer, my breeder didn’t care for any screening of my suitability, only the first one to get the deposit in his account, and I was not allowed to visit before the dog was reserved for me - I now know just how bad that breeder was.. he never even let me see where the pups were being raised

All in all, i feel that if the breeder has a respectful relationship with buyer and can make fair and honest agreements then it’s ok to send deposits before viewings, but not as OP has endured

Non refundable deposits without even seeing the pups and how they are raised and they pull out is imo wrong.
I would if I went deposit route its refundable if they aren't happy otherwise you have kept money from someone at the point of viewing and they change their minds, not ethical in my book and would not offer a deposit before seeing a litter ever nor would I give one should any breeder ask me. Once viewed yes.

Suejaw:  Non Refundable Deposits: As a Beeeder I do accept non refundable deposits from prospective new owners who have been on my waiting list and haven't viewed the Litter.  It's all about trust when you have been in regular contact for 6 - 9 months. Many advertising sites offer a 'safe deposit' scheme now which prevents non reputable greeders/breeders from scamming anyone. As everyone advises on the CD site, finding a good Breeder who will consider you for their waiting list is the only way ahead - rather than considering a litter that is advertised.  All so confusing!

I can fully understand why you pulled out, I would to if the breeder never got back to me.

However, trying to see it from a legal point of view (I'm not a solicitor) , if the agreement was to give you a puppy by the end of the year then a court might not rule entirely in your favour as they haven't yet breached this agreement as the year hasn't ended yet, It would be you that is breaking the agreement at this point.

The court will then look at what evidence you both have and then the judge will decide what they think is reasonable. They can't be left out of pocket, they will likely be allowed a reasonable amount for the time they've spent talking to you (time is money after all) , ext

If you decide to gamble on them not having a puppy for you by the end of the year. If they don't they have breached the contract as they don't have the goods to sell. The court will be much more in your favour. Problem is that they might have a puppy for you and then you could lose more of your deposit.

Do you have a contract in writing, even emails will do. What you do is up to you and how much the deposit was worth to you. You could also ask, who knows they might turn out to be reasonable.

Crazy dog lady:  So agree with everything you are saying.  Been down that route myself.  The problem here is that there is a full facebook page regarding this Breeder and his 'scamming' of taking deposits without puppies being made available even 18 months later and indeed one elderly possible new owner passed from covid without a deposit refund being made although requested several times.    The Breeder in question if not legally in the wrong but morally in the wrong.  Terrible way of working.  I for one am disgusted that this practice continues

Agree. This practice needs stopping. The government and police are so slack when it comes to puppy scams