I'm an occasional breeder and am expecting my first litter in 4 years. A friend who breeds quite often said I should get some liquid calcium in and that it was all the rage now, but I thought calcium was really outdated and people don't give it to the bitch any more?

LucyDogs:  Liquid Calcium:  Hi there.  Please don't follow this trend without Vet advice.  Over doses of Calcium can lead to as many problems for your bitch as calcium shortage!!!
The only thing you cannot over dose on is worming medication.  If I have a girl in Pup, I worm from day 30 until day of giving birth.

That's exactly what I thought. I suppose I could get some in just in case, but I think if my bitch was showing signs of eclampsia I'd feel safer taking them to the vet.

LucyDogs Some have used the liquid calcium without pre eclampsia signs and lost their girl & Puppies so glad you are keen to seek advice.  Good Luck with that planned Litter - a fantastic feeling when you raise these little babies!!! x

No one should give calcium to the bitch pre whelping as that is what may cause the problems however having it to hand for post whelping is a reasonable safety net as even with a trip to the vet supplementation may be required for more than the one visit,

1234 knows a fair bit about the pros and cons of calcium.  Might be worth contacting if she doesn't see your post

Some worming medications are not safe for all breeds let alone an overdose of wormer.

satincollie: some worming medications are not safe for all breeds.   I would imagine a certain breed owner would check which was safe for their breed.  Administer in good faith of that advice and follow the same pattern of dosing.

satincollie:  Calcium:  Totally agree - none pre whelping. Fair point in having stock available.  Most of us have a 'doggie' first aid kit so making this part of it would be wise even if unused.

Yes but you are posting on a open forum and have no idea of the readers knowledge so blanket statements need care

satincollie I expect any reader would have sought worming advice from their Breeder on collection  & Vet on their initial 8/10 week visit? Once established, to my knowledge I have never known a dog of any breed to have been over wormed?

Some wormers are poisonous for certain breeds such as collies and some other herding breeds that carry a certain gene.

Vets have prescribed these medications to these breeds before today. A google search will quiet often bring up a post on the forum and some will rely on such things for information. Also there are knowledgeable breeders  and then  there are the  people down the road who thought having a litter of puppies was the thing to do and consequently not everyone has the information they should.Iin an ideal world things would be as you say but it's far from an ideal world so it is better to not assume everyone has a certain level of knowledge and avoid blanket statements.

satincollie:  Vets prescribing wrongly: I can't comment on that as I have no data of such available & wouldn't want to get into legal 'hot water'.  Haven't quite gotten my head around people approaching a site such as champdogs if they have invested in a pedigree dog/puppy of their chosen breed without doing their research, receiving a puppy pack including all such info from the Breeder and visiting a Vet who maybe incompetent on a subject as basic as worming.

Agility tervs:  Wormer:  Yes but not all wormers can be poisonous or where on earth would the health of our collies & herding breeds be?

When a blanket statement gives information that wouldn't be safe advice for all if followed by the uninformed then it is better it is corrected for those that aren't well informed now let this lie please.

Not all.wormers are toxic to herding  breeds but those containing ivermectin must be avoided unless u know your dog does not carry the faulty gene. (Mdr1)
It is surprising how many owners are not aware of that . There other drugs within that drug family that should be avoided as well .
I
Sadly I am aware of one border collie that was given the wrong wormer by the vet with very serious consequences.  Hopefully that is a very unusual occurence.

I usually feed lots of ice cream and scrambled egg.
Someone did say to me that dogs can't overdose on calcium because what is not needed is expelled, now I'm not so sure of that but post whelping I do up calcium intake.

Under normal circumstances dogs can suffer from the effects of Calcium overdosing such as stealing their humans supplements, however during lactation the possibility is lessened by the increased need for calcium so normal supplementing at this time isn't usually as  dangerous.

I have to say I was sceptical about this, I did try and find something to confirm one way or another, best person is probably a repro vet on that.

furriefriends:  Wrong Wormer given to Border Collie:  I have had Border Collies all of my life and my goodness they are such a special breed. (2 at the moment). This happened to my neighbouring Farmer when wormer was prescribed by a locum vet so aware how awful it is. I thought a one off but as satincollie said - a problem that we hope is an unusual occurence but maybe another thread topic - so sad.

but I think if my bitch was showing signs of eclampsia I'd feel safer taking them to the vet.

Indeed Lucy and if the bitch collapses it is a real emergency. But if she is showing minor signs and it happens to be 3 am on a Sunday, then it's very useful to have calcium at home. I have to say that my toy breed bitches all get extra calcium after birth and for a minimum of 3 weeks, having witnessed first hand whilst visiting a friend just how quickly a small bitch can go downhill. The big dogs do not get extra calcium, but I have given it on a couple of occasions when the bitch was still panting and being restless past the first 2/3 days, and that did sort it out.

Never give calcium before whelping; there's evidence (even vets will say so) that calcium supplements during pregnancy are linked to a higher chance of eclampsia in the first week after whelping. But it's very useful to have for after whelping for if the bitch has a large litter and starts showing eclampsia symptoms (more the usual restlessness at uterine contractions). Otherwise you can bet it'll happen at the most inconvenient time and you can't get to the vet, especially at the moment. Having some Collo-Cal D to hand can buy time, and often will save the stress of getting a bitch and litter to a potentially infectious place.

Great thanks will get some in :-)

If you're choosing a calcium supplement, make sure it says clearly how much ELEMENTAL calcium is in it and/or what type of calcium it is.

It's confusing but there isn't just 'calcium', there is dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, calcium citrate, calcium lactate, calcium propionate....!!!  And each of these has different amounts per mg of ELEMENTAL calcium. And it's the elemental calcium that we need to know the quantity of, because that's what we dose by. For example, calcium carbonate is 40% elemental calcium, whilst calcium lactate is 13% elemental calcium. This results in very different dosages.

Secondly, calcium deficiency can cause unsettled maternal behaviour, digging, panting, getting in and out of the crate, looking stressed, moving puppies around.... and none of this is eclampsia and it probably wouldn't progress to eclampsia, but heck it is awful to deal with. I always supplement with calcium - during whelping after the first puppy is out, because it helps with contractions - and then throughout lactation to replenish calcium stores.

Thirdly, I've known many people take their dogs to the vet and get calcium levels checked when people tell them that calcium might be low, and the vet tells them the calcium is normal and they come back and go 'SO THERE' - calcium is normal - that's not the problem. BUT, somehow they are persuaded to supplement with calcium anyway (because it won't hurt) and hey presto, all the problem behaviour stops...

So we can only conclude that despite levels appearing normal in bloods, they are actually low - it could be that the dog is mobilising their own calcium stores to get it into the blood where it's needed, but their own stores are getting depleted - only we are measuring bloods and not amounts stored elsewhere, so we are not seeing that their own stores are being depleted.

Calcium is not an expensive drug so there's no money to be made in running trials or incentive for vets to figure this out further, so we can only pass it on by word of mouth.

The only time I have used it, in a friends bitch who had been unwell with direhoea, and ended up with C section for most of her litter, with very low calcium.

I was prescribed Calcal-D I believe as it hasbthe correct balance of Cacium to vitamin D.

Calcium needs to be used with Vit D.

If anyone in North America is reading this, Doc Roy's Healthy Bones are the best calcium tablets to get and are made for dogs, balanced calcium to phosphorous and with vit D. It's a shame we don't have them in the UK.

>I was prescribed Calcal-D I believe as it hasbthe correct balance of Cacium to vitamin D.

Yes, Collocal-D is what vets will recommend here because it's the correct balance.