I was in the x-ray room with one of mine - wearing a lead apron.    However that was only done AFTER her due date to see what was going on and before she was given a C.Section.   And this wasn't in the UK but in Canada.   Again the only time i'd agree re x-ray with a pregnant bitch, would be after the due date, if nothing had happened.   It makes no sense to me to x-ray rather than scan if there's a need to know beforehand.

>And of course they don’t sedate her for a simple X-ray!! My dog is well behaved and lies calmly when requested to do so

In the UK nobody is allowed in the room when x-rays are taken (except the vet, behind a screen) and not many animals will lie absolutely still when their owner leaves them alone in a strange environment; that's quite advanced competition obedience! o they need to be sedated or held in place with many heavy weights - which of course would be stressful.

Purely leaving aside the sedation side of things and just focussing on the x-ray, it's really not advisable or best. It exposes all the puppies to radiation at an early and developmental time in their lives.

Why do you think we don't x-ray pregnant humans and if we absolutely have to, we use lead aprons over reproductive organs...?

There is no medical need for it whatsoever, it just makes people feel better. Personally, I'd rather go with what is medically better for the puppies than just feeing better and alleviating worry.

onetwothreefour: X-rays: Why are Xrays not advisable?  I have them done on all of my girls routinely in pregnancy.  I will take any advice you give on board as I have now realised you are Vet trained...sorry if I questioned your views previously!  Sorry just realizes you said Xray not Scan which I was relating to.

I'm sure it is super sensible to the three Vets who are happy to take the money for performing the x-ray.

I wasn’t going to reply but now I am.. I came to this forum as a total newbie, naive but utterly genuine
I needed support and guidance and advice
All I have got is sarcasm, reproaching and little else
I am so disappointed
I don’t hold much regard for the medical sciences in England to be quite frank .. the uk is well behind europe on most medical matters

Things are done differently in different countries, I had no choice to take vets advice,
The difference with me is that my girl is not “one of my bitches” she is my beloved pet and I will do anything to keep her well and safe

Having now had the puppies I am most grateful for my vets advice and activities during pregnancy and one very supportive member of this forum

>I'm sure it is super sensible to the three Vets who are happy to take the money for performing the x-ray.

My oh my, how cynical!

Here in Switzerland the one (ONE) ex-ray shot of a pregnant female a few days before the expected birth (along with the second herpes injection) is standard procedure.  And - this not being exactly a third-world country - you'd be surprised at how competent and ethical most vets are!  The University Animal Hospital in Zuerich, where most vets were trained and accredited, is no slouch.  I would never think of accusing our vets here of making money at the expense of the well-being and health of the animals.

I've raised 53 litters over more than two decades, and every single litter was ex-rayed before birth.  Once.  What is supposed to happen?  I've never encountered the slightest problem related to that ex-ray.

I realise that this forum is British.  It's supposed to be international, but it is diffiult for non-Brits to feel welcome or even to feel that there is any interest in their opinions or experiences.  I suppose one has to accept that as understandable.  I do think, however, that anyone who reaches out for help as sincerely and urgently as Havanais-eli did, deserves something other than preaching and fear-mongering.  We all know how a comment can strike fear into our hearts when it concerns our precious babies, especially if one is new to breeding.  A breeder starting out doesn't know what to DO with that fear!  Of course new breeders must be ready to confront problems and to acquire knowledge, even if it IS scary sometimes, but it is well to remember how WE felt, starting out.

I would just like to add that not one of my females was ever sedated when the ex-ray was performed.

Nimue:  None of my girls were sedated either.  Just trust in humans was all that was necessary and my girls are big Labradors - could easily have rebelled.  At the time of whelping calm, comfortable as could be and excellent Mums to their Litter.  Again all about the experience they have had with socialisation

Obviously he’s not a bitch so won’t ever be x-rayed during pregnancy, but my River would definitely need to be sedated for any kind of imaging.

Unfortunately he had to have his anal glands emptied at 11 or 12 weeks (long story, breeder wormed him but he still had loads of worms when he came home, and it took a while to sort the inevitable liquid diarrhoea out). It was clearly a traumatic experience having a finger up his tiny little bottom and despite lots of treats and play and fuss at the vets several times a week for months, he never regained his trust of vets, poor little boy.

I worked super hard on his socialisation but he never forgot that one bad experience even with so many good experiences to counteract it.

I think my old Lab, on the other hand, would have let the vet cut her leg off without anaesthetic and still be all kisses.

So sorry you feel that way.

As a primarily UK based forum, I did point out there are differences in attitude to x-rays in pregnancy.

Some posters in UK do not realise it is standard practice.

Here in UK the dangers of the radiation exposure by the developing pups are considered to be too high for pregnancy.

I am surprised that Ultrasound as a safer alternative is not used more in those countries.

Especially as the newr equipment gives much clearer results than in the past.

Another advantage is that in real time heart beats can be seen, and in a slow whelping can help determine if pups are in distress and a C section needed.

Congratulations on the safe arrival of the litter, enjoy!!

>Another advantage is that in real time heart beats can be seen, and in a slow whelping can help determine if pups are in distress and a C section needed.

I have used this procedure many, many times while waiting for - and worrying about - the big contractions kicking in.  More than once, it DID indeed result in a C section.

I'm afraid it's got nothing to do with being in the UK.

Avidog is American and its founder Dr Gayle Watkins, is American. Her views, put forth in the link above - along with research - are put forth as an American, living in America, where routine x-raying of pregnant bitches continues. As such, she speaks out even from within a community where this practice is commonplace - as it is in many European countries. (Fortunately not in the UK.)

Science doesn't know any boundaries. X-rays increase the risk of cancer when delivered to neonatal animals whether you live in the UK, US or Europe. Science is science and it is not different dependent on where you live.

Seek out the research and the truth, rather than attacking the people who tell you about it.

Here are the links:

https://www.avidog.com/how-badly-do-we-need-to-know/
https://www.avidog.com/how-badly-do-we-need-to-know-part-2/

If you can read that and still think it is best to x-ray pregnant bitches just to know how many puppies are coming, then you're in denial IMO and just don't want to accept the cognitive dissonance that occurs when you realise this is what you've been doing to bitches and puppies...

No one is blaming people who x-ray and don't know any better or whose vets advised them to. But to be given the information and research and then to persist in arguing that it's ok, and then to attack the people who've tried to help you avoid this practice for future litters, is clearly just done to avoid cognitive dissonance because it doesn't feel nice. And if you can't deal with that cognitive dissonance, it's the future pups and mothers who will continue to be x-rayed.

Be bigger than that, please. Deal with a bit of discomfort and cognitive dissonance in the name of advancing science and doing less harm.

And don't just attack people because you don't like what they say.

Especially when there is a safer option in Ultrasound.

Goodbye everyone. I hope your sanctimonious attitudes carry you through and make you feel big about yourselves
I for one do not wish to subject myself to your toxic attitudes any longer nor your negative responses
I had really hoped to find like minded people here, whose pure unadulterated love for their dogs would unite us.

Seems I was sorely mistaken

Good bye Havanais-eli: Well done everyone who replied!  Another possible new forum member bites the dust. 2nd one in 3 days....hmm....very very sad.  Keep your beliefs sacred Havanais-eli and good luck

I think there are an awful lot of over sensitive snowflakes around.

If you ask questions or opinions don't expect everyone to agree with you.

In some cases the majority view may conflict with your own, at other times the majority will agree with you.

Some topics will ellicit strong feelings/opinions.

It really should not be taken personally.

Brainless:  Snowflakes :  Yes we are all aware of heated debate and Whelpng will always be a particularly 'hot bed' due to many people's different experiences - X-ray & Scanning are personal choices and if X-ray is their choice and they have found no ill effects. frightening data links re Cancer will increase reaction and anxiety. We all need knowledge but some are in early learning and need a bit of Patience.
Calling people names though is not nice and comparing them to film characters. (on another thread) is particularly disprespectful.  Sorry!

> and if X-ray is their choice and they have found no ill effects.

Thing is the known ill effects may be suffered by the pups and new owners.

So it is important to point out the risks.

Decisions are best based on as many pertinent facts as possible.

I agree with Brainless, no one can be expected to make a sensible decision unless they have all the relevant information, no matter how “scary” that information may be.

Where’s the logic in hiding information that a particular practice might cause serious health problems, for fear of upsetting someone? In my opinion, the more scary the information, the more we have a responsibility to share it.

Facts don’t care about anyone’s feelings.

Do you think we ought to rename this forum  "Reactive Champdogs UK" forum?      My boy is reactive and he is a fully fledged member of Reactive Dogs UK, some dogs like to say hello to him but they often wish they hadn't bothered and don't try again.  Is it just me or is there a similarity here.

What I don't understand is that at least in the uk we are very careful about xrays for humans amd animals.a like. Especially if any suggestion of pregnancy .  The dangers are well known
There cant be many who haven't had an experience of xray and the questions asked followed by only allowing the patient to be near enough to receive the xrays.everyone else is either out the room or at least well protected.
Is it just here that we feel.this and infact its ott ? Even with a dental.xray same procedures are followed .. y husband who happened to be with me recently had to leave the room with the dentist. No chance of pregnancy  there!!
I feel if someome isn't aware they should at least be given facts so they can make an educated choice and discuss with any professional . This applies to other things too Imo

>Even with a dental.xray same procedures are followed .. y husband who happened to be with me recently had to leave the room with the dentist. No chance of pregnancy  there!!

The radiation could damage his sperm production! It's a fact that x-rays should never be considered a routine procedure - they are dangerous which is why there are so many  safety precautions with their use. To use a risky procedure when there's a much safer - for the puppies as well as the bitch - one available is pretty stupid really.

>X-ray & Scanning are personal choices and if X-ray is their choice and they have found no ill effects.

How about the potential damage to the unborn pups' reproductive organs, as well as their brains and other sensitive developing tissue? Many breeders will never get to hear about their puppies after they've gone to their new homes and so don't know what damage has been done that only becomes evident a few years down the line?

When X Ray's were first invented the side effects were not known & many people died from the cancers the X Ray's caused, not just to patients but to the operators too.

This is why lead aprons, gloves etc started to be used, now with scientific advances & remote control of Xray machines plus the speed of exposure the risk is much reduced, but the risks are still there, especially to feti in uterus.

The current veterinary advice is only to x Ray pregnant animals in emergencies & to use ultrasound where possible. Of course it is down to individual vets or practices whether they choose to follow this guidance. Most of the vets I know would not choose this option on pregnant patients

This is very true jeangenie and just proves the point that we don't take chances unless an xray is really necessary

It was over 50 years ago, but I was x-rayed during pregnancy. My foetus was small and maternity doubted my dates. My dates were correct, baby arrived two weeks overdue, but only weighed 4lb. 12oz. I don't think there was ultrasound at that time.
I worked as a vet. assistant in the 1950's - pre RANA days. We had a clunky second-hand x-ray machine which was used in the consulting/operating room. One of my tasks was to hold the animals still while imaging took place. I was about 5' 3" but had to wear a gents size lead and rubber apron and gloves - I could hardly move in them.
Those were the Herriot days, how things have changed!

Jeangenie>  Scanning & X-Rays:  I agree with you that X-ray would not be my choice either (an emergency - definately would if it saved lives).  The Forum Member who lives in a certain part of France, far from large practice facilities.  Fair comment from you but no one wants to risk an unsafe labour, so that's possibly why some owners will make sure everything is alright especially those with their first litter. and  Hindsight can be a wonderful thing no doubt but as the thread relates to 'questions for advice on whelping' maybe
the facts about X-rays was very much too little too late and has cost us another new Forum Member.  All about the approach I suppose.

91052> Reactive Champdogs UK  Think you might find a reactive response (often overly harsh IMO) to every thread/topic on the CD Site.

> It's a fact that x-rays should never be considered a routine procedure

I was on a thread once where someone from America I think it was was saying an owner can't say their dogs dental health is fine unless the dog had been xrayed. They seem very surprised when told that vets here don't routinely x-ray to check teeth unless they suspected a problem that would require it. The amount of pregnancy xrays I see on some of the facebook breeding groups seems some countries they have a very different attitude towards xraying.

JoStockbridge> x-rays should never be considered a routine procedure>Yip, every country has a different view and as I believe the CD Site is open to world wide Members, I'm sure we'll have a lot of different views and hopefully less sharp responses as time goes on.

Nimue:  > I'm sure it is super sensible to the three vets who are happy to take the money for performing the x-ray:  Sadly anything different in a small minority of people will be met with criticism Nimue. Criticism has been vented on here at Vets, UK Kennel Club Assured Breeders, DEFRA, Licensing Bodies, British Veterinary Association - the list is endless - even the Champ Dogs site itself.. Please keep posting and lets not lose another Forum Member...especially non British advice as I believe that is the only way forward and proves there is diversity on many topics.  That's what constitutes a Forum

Dear Hoggie
Thank you for your kind and diplomatic efforts to smooth out the squabbles.  The forum should be grateful to you!  Of course it is a valuable forum, that's why I've been on it for many years, mostly lurking!  But the frequent unpleasantness just isn't worth it.  I don't know who needs that these days with the world in the shape it is.
Kindest regards!

Smart fact: I trust European vets and doctors considerably more than English ones.. the historical data speaks for itself

Next fact: I live 30 minutes from the closest out of hours emergency vet hospitals I prefer the SMALL risk if it exists of ONE X-ray over being in a position of losing a puppy or my beloved girl if there is a troubled labour

The difference I see rather clearly is that my girl is my beloved pet and not just “a bitch” so I would rather move heaven and earth to do everything I can to be as sure as I can that SHE will be safe
I guess that’s where we all differ, my girl lives in my heart and I would rather lose a pup than her (money means nothing to me)

As it turns out, she had a difficult first whelp with a very large puppy being first and no placenta etc, being a first timer having to help her with all 5 was anxious enough as it is so I am absolutely standing by my decision to trust the vet I have in Switzerland and France because it armed me with the information to know when everything was over ! Had I not know, the night would have been a hell of a lot worse
Forewarned is forearmed !!

I would be interested to know the statistics of emergency c-sections in England versus the continent, purely because owners are totally ignorant going into the birth .. I’ll bet the numbers are higher in England (bit higher cost to the dam don’t you think?..

I would like to thank Hoggie and Nimue for being supportive and nice
I guess this is the dog world of trolling

How many litters, born by C section, can be registered to a bitch after the first C section with the FCI?

A bitch can be monitored by ultra sounds if there is concern over pregnancy. No need for Xraying the feti & putting them at risk.

So UK vets are pants according to our esteemed European members. Strange when so many European vets come to the UK to work, attend our Veterinary schools if the Veterinary practise is so behind the European standards.

A friend of mine is considered one of the global experts in his field( no not the"supervet") & he not only treated animals from Europe, but also in the US, because he is at the top of his field. He has many European vets come to his practice to learn about his techniques & gain UK qualifications.

He is not alone here in the UK in treating animals from Europe & training European vets in techniques unknown in Europe.

With Havanais-eli's permission, I thought I'd tell the forum about the birth of her puppies.  We met each other here on the forum, as I wrote to her behind the scenes, offering my help and experience.   So during the days leading up to the birth, we developed a lively correspondance per email, telephone and skype. On Wednesday night starting at 1.30 a.m. we birthed 5 puppies together by skype in two hours. We are still enjoying sharing the newborns (photos) and all that goes with that wonderful experience. We look forward to continuing.  Sometimes, really nice things happen!!

No! My prickles came up because UK members berate me for trusting my vet and my mentor (who has xrayed every litter she produced !)
No one seems willing to accept that things are done differently on different countries and attacked me with the sole goal of making me feel like crap that I have voluntarily put my litter at risk
That’s not nice behaviour , especially not what I expect from a forum of people who are meant to have a shared passion DOGS!! All I have felt is totally unwelcome

Ann R Smith: Who is this reply aimed at? So confusing!>  How many litters, born by C Section, can be registered to a bitch after the first C section with the FCYI.  C Section recommendations will differ throughout the world.
Who said UK Vets are 'pants'?  Nobody!...We have fabulous UK Vets, we have fabulous European Vets who if want to specialise in a specific area of Veterianary Medicine
will train whereever the experts practice. NB - please don't go down the route of unprovoked attacks again?  We have just had 2 European Members agree to return....

>I trust European vets and doctors considerably more than English ones.

Having worked with very many European vets I find the exact opposite; that the European ones have a lot to learn, and they've told me that the last 18 months of their training is all connected with food animals and not domestic pets. One had never even handled a pet rabbit and had no idea about what diseases they suffer from! By the time they've been with us for 2 years they're approaching the experience of a new graduate from a UK vet school.

>The difference I see rather clearly is that my girl is my beloved pet and not just “a bitch”

On the contrary, I think everyone here who's been pointing out that x-rays should only be used in an emergency situation and not as routine, has all their bitches as house dogs and not kennel bitches. They are all pets first and foremost!

>As it turns out, she had a difficult first whelp with a very large puppy being first and no placenta etc

The pup must have had a placenta, and x'rays can't detect soft tissue like that anyway.

>I would be interested to know the statistics of emergency c-sections in England versus the continent

I would hope that all c-sections were emergency ones, because routine elective sections are very bad for a breed; they soon become the norm and in some breeds the ability to self-whelp is almost lost.

Jeangenie: Whelping & X-rays vs Scanning>  No one on here that I have come across has 'Kennel Bitches'.  Not part of the thread either. European experiences are not wrong - just different.  If owners are taking the very best advice on offer and indeed may well be ahead of the UK on up to date information (who knows without discussion?) then expecting them to justify their actions is a poor reaction IMO

> No one on here that I have come across has 'Kennel Bitches'.  Not part of the thread either

Jeanjeanie has direct quoted from Havanese_ali's post time 16:56!

> No one on here that I have come across has 'Kennel Bitches'.

Someone does...

Jeangenie:  Working with many European Vets> The last 18 months of their training is connected with food animals and not domestic pets and after 2 years are only experienced as a new graduate >  I believe Vets train for 7 yrs - 2 yrs longer than human GPs.  18 months to 2 yrs into training they haven't even completed a third of their course. Has your Veterinary arena treated a Siberian Tiger or a Duckbilledplatipus? I'm sure you would find out how to if you were presented with one needing help.  I'm sure 'Graduates' would do the same. Please stop ridiculing yet another profession...

Masajackrussell> And despite your beliefs it is not me...

I came to this forum holding out my hand to those with knowledge, I had armed myself with all the knowledge I could glean from resources available to me
I was rather hoping to immerse myself in this new world
However I for my arm bitten off, once bitten twice shy ..
i rather feel I’ve been trolled

I hope no other new members suffer the same fate as me, I’m a tough cookie but some of the comments here have played on my mind somewhat

I’m kinda done fighting with people who simply work with such closed minds and righteous bashing
It’s not what I need or want
So please, be adults, accept we are not all clones of eachother with identikit personalities, and we live in a diverse world with diverse methods and opinions - none of which are my fault

Some of you ought be hanging your heads in shame the way you treat new members honestly

It’s done, my babies are here, healthy and thriving nothing any of you can say to me will destroy this time for me

I dont feel anyone is ridiculing any profession just replying to an allegation that uk vets are not as good as European. 
I suggest its subjective especially if someone feels.they have to defend a position or action

You are all funny
In my quotes post at 16:56 I wrote

The difference I see rather clearly is that my girl is my beloved pet and not just “a bitch” so I would rather move heaven and earth to do everything I can to be as sure as I can that SHE will be safe
I guess that’s where we all differ, my girl lives in my heart and I would rather lose a pup than her (money means nothing to me)

Do any of you find the word kennel there ???? No I thought nor
I was going off the fact that during this session of 2-3 weeks, everyone has referred to bitch , while technically correct somehow removes a feeling of love in my mind

So feel free to continue reading things into my post that aren’t there

furriefriends: Ridiculing professions.  European Vets have just been classed as inferior to UK Vets if you read all posts before reacting.

Havanais-eli > Well said to everything! xxx