Times change Ann & I would rather err on the side of caution.  If you have ever seen a Puppy die of Parvo. Disptemper etc you wouldn't take a chance on your responsibility as a Breeder
NB  my Puppies do not leave until they are 10 wks old

Masajackrussell...I find it shocking if a Vet suggests starting again with the same product - now that really is taking advantage of a new owner in my book.  Do you think or have  proof that many Vets do this - I would be disgusted if that was the case and if found to be true - I would stop the practice of vaccinating and avae myself the concern

I can’t agree with you over this. A puppy is far more likely to pick up these diseases if they are vaccinated too early, and 7-8 weeks is too early in my book, as there is too much reliance on that vaccine ‘taking’ and protecting the puppy. Far better to vaccinate at 9-10 weeks when maternal antibodies have waned and the vaccine will properly provide protection.
I’ve never bought a puppy having had its first vaccine in 50 years and I wouldn’t start now.

I did a lot of research on maternal immunity as part of a study done by the Immunology department at Glasgow when I was doing my MSc.

It was eye opening to say the least & lead me eventually into research as a career rather than general practice.

Sadly the general public follow the traditional regime of vaccination from 8 weeks of age & end up with dogs with allergies & compromised immune systems. They also are totally unaware of how titre testing works. It amazes me that a once in a life time titre test for rabies is acceptable as OK & no further testing required just 3 yearly boosters, yet do the same for core vaccines & the test is declared useless. I've done testing on dogs for rabies titre tests many years after their last vaccination & they still had required levels!

Because my dogs have always been fed naturally even when there have been severe outbreaks of the core diseases they have never been affected. They have very strong immune systems & my dog ownership goes back to the 1950s

I do think the public believe, totally incorrectly, that vaccinations protect from diseases, they don't they, allegedly, lessen the effects of the disease.

I, personally, had my immune totally system destroyed by over vaccination(according to my immunologist). There is no traditional treatment for me, so I go down the natural route.

Does the forum think  a NEW THREAD should be started re Vaccination rather than go off topic on Puppy Transportation?

A lot of vets do this Hoggie. I know from experience and also have heard it from a lot of people. I can’t give you definitive proof no but it is very common.

Hi Jody - sorry I should have confirmed my Puppies don't leave until they are 10 weeks and I agree on the 8 week immunity cover from Mum.  As the 1st jab only gives 75% cover at what ever age it is important that the 2nd jab is administered at the correcr time giving the final 25% cover,

masajackrussell - My goodness - this is shocking!!! Didn't realise we are all being ripped off...thank you for this insight.

Anne R Smith:  I am sorry to hear you have suffered from this immune deficiency problem.  Despite our differences in the past I can tell by your responses that you are very knowledgable on the Science of the life cycle of genetics.  Could I make a little pint that the oublic can only follow the information produced from those they have interaction with as professionals whether Vets, Governing Bodies or experienced breeders so not sure what your expectation of people's knowledge should be?  Please feel free to advise

Its often forums like.this that start people thinking and researching more on many subjects . Reading work by people like dr jean dodds and Ron shultz are very useful. As are the wsava guidelines.


Its like human medicine don't just follow blindly what u are told educate yourself so u can engage in proper dialog with professionals
It's amazing what you learn that is different from just following one conventional line on many subjects

Furriefriends:  I understand that we all learn something new every day and infact seek knowledge as we progress and I thank you for details of reports to be studied by dr dodds and r shultz and I will google said however just not sure that everyone who is involved in the 'doggie' world would perceive this as necessary to make breeding decisions?  I'm sure you will correct me if you feel they will ...

> No Puppy should leave the Breeder without their 1st vaccination.

No, no, no!

I'm sorry but I would never let any of my puppies go with first vaccination.

My breed club COE states pups sold past 10 weeks should have first jab.

If I keep pups beyond the 8 -10 week usual homing period, then I woukd have both done.

Vets use so many different vaccine brands, and it be covered by manufacturers warranty will insist on giving 2 vaccinations of the brand they use.

This even happened to me way back in 1992, when I bought my foundation
bitch home at 11 weeks, and then there were usually only two main vaccs companies products in common use.

I with many breeders and owners disagree wirh over vaccinating puppies wirh imature immune systems, and if vaccinated too early may end up with no vaccine protection because it is overidden by maternal antibodies.

For my own pups I prefer to vaccinate at 10 weeks, with second vaccine up to 4 weeks later.

I think all breeders will have differing opinions after all vaccinations always  engender strong views himam or animal   but  I do feel very strongly along with other aspects of breeding it is imperative that people are informed so that they can decide what they feel is best .
I dont see  knowledge  of.vaccination any less important than  any other knowledge u need to breed healthy dogs

Sorry didn't see all the other posts in time to delete my post, which I wrote when clicking from the link in replies to me. :)

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/    although dogs naturally is more of an alternative magazine the information in this article is quoting  from conventional research and may be of interest to some

Brainless:  Whoa calm down!:  My Puppies don't leave until 10 weeks old as reputable breeders dictate.  If my hairy babies are jabbed at 10 weeeks then surely depending on vaccine used they should have their 2nd at 12 weeks or 14 weeks? You must have kept your Puppies back until 14 or 16 wks before collection? My New owners receive an email 2 weeks before collection stating what the pups are being jabbed with giving their vet plenty of time to order that particular product.  Timing wise we are on the same wave length here!

Unfortunately a lot of.vets won't order in if its not from the companies they use.
I cant prove that to you but have heard of many who are chasing around trying to find a vet that uses the right company
Maybe something to stress to your prospective owners in case their vets offer something different and they arnt aware of the potential risks

For interest re vaccination - Ron Schultz
http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm

Also re puppy vaccination.

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

snap brainless we have got.the same links  lol

Snap :)

Guys Guys:  Brainless & furriefriends please!:  Not arguing just stating that as a Licenced Breeder following the KC Assured Breeder Scheme Guidelines I have to follow their advice...what am I doing wrong now?

> what am I doing wrong now?

Nothing as such, just you stated no pup should go without first jabs, but it's not a hard and fast rule, or even considered safe or  best practise by many.

Sadly I was shocked to disciver in NSW Australia breeders had no choice but to vaccinate, young litters of pups.

Didn't say u were if.thats what the kc require but maybe its them that need to think again and this is something u may choose to think about in any case
Some breeders have chosen not to be assured breeders as it gives them more.freedom to make.their own choices, this may be just one example .
I am a sure others more.knowledgable.than me ,especially as I dont breed ,.could.tell.u more

It's more likely to be local licensing rules from the Council.

My friend is a Dog Walker.

Where we lived in Bristol we were on boundary of 2 councils.

One for example would not allow boarding of dogs that weren't neutered!!! That same one would not allow walking of more than one male, etc etc.

Now obviously common sense prevailed in our council. Leaving such decisions to the assessment of the dogs.

Another reason why I and many breeders that breed 2 or less litters in any rolling 12 months do notbwant to be subject to licensing, and having sometimes random, or impractical regularuons thrust upon us.

So often homes, needs of breeds or even individuals require different things.

More heat, less heat, segregation from felliws, support of canine family, age if homing pups.

Then things like seperate food prep and storage, waste management. What is appropriate with larger numbers, or more frequent breeding is not needed or appropriate in a small scale occasuonal breeding situation. Rules rarely alliw fir suffucient flexibility.

Brainless:  This is exactly the reason I first joined the CD Forum so that I could get a balanced perspective and make the right decisions.  To be honest it hasn't been a pleasant experience but I have gained an insight into lots of different things to be considered.  I am not a Crusader' only an individual and will take all comments on board.   As suggested earlier. it might be wise to start a new thread on this subject as we are going off thread 'Transporting a young pup'

>Nothing as such, just you stated no pup should go without first jabs, but it's not a hard and fast rule, or even considered safe or  best practise by many.

It definitely isn't 'best practice'; many vets are of the opinion that puppies should leave for their new homes either unvaccinated or fully vaccinated, but not with just one. They should also not - for health reasons - be vaccinated within a week of being homed; this means that if they leave at 8 weeks they shouldn't have their first injection till 9 weeks (with the second at 11 weeks).
Certainly no vet is going to order in a box of special vaccines just for one puppy; if what's been given for the first one is incompatible with the brand they use then they'll just start the course again, which is far from ideal.

But getting back to the transportation of puppies; I always send my puppies off with a blanket that the litter has been sleeping with, but advise not to put it in the travel crate (if used). If the pup is travel sick onto it, it'll need washing before it's put into the pup's bed in its new home, and will have lost all the element of comfort and familiarity!

furriefriends:  Thank you...I have qustioned ABS before but at least I have an overall view of how it ties you down. Losing the will to understand everyone's point of view.  As long as my guys are happy, healthy, their welfare needs are met and my litters have a full and comfortable life - brilliant....

Jeangenie:  My pups leave at 10 weeks - they have their first jab at 9 weeks - my vet comes to me as I have livestock as a farmer and have regular visitts - what advisory council,  government body or wet says they should have their 2nd jab before they leave?  Re no vet will order in a box of especially? If they start the course agin it is completely for fiancial gain

Jeangenie:  exactly  - the blanket is put in with their starter food pack, pads, poo bags & water bottle.  The familiar toy goes in their transportation crate.

Admin any chance of branching the thread, as most of  the most recent posts are about breeder policy on puppy vaccs.

Exactly the request I posted hours ago! Please do Admin

Just picked up this post from you Brainless: I agree that Councils have no idea of what the rules individually or by County should be.  As I breed an average of 3 litters per 12 month period, I had no choice but to become licenced and that is why I have to  promote myself as a commercial breeder (trading standards disciplines).  I have to have temperature controlled kennels with daily reports on each. I have to have a waste management programme - monthly invoice notification - feeding records daily and signed. cleaning regime also signed - and I also have to incorporate number of sheep dogs on the farm as part of my allowed number on sight to comply with my licencing agreement.

Any vet who vaccinated dogs over 10 weeks of age more than once for the core vaccines is going against the manufacturers guidance.

Those who do not believe me check out the NOAH compendium.

There used to be one smaller manufacturer whose guidance was different & I know of vets to swopped over to them in order to keep their profit margins. Don't know if they have come in line with the other manufacturers as they used to advise annual full boosters as well.

If councils insist on dogs over 10 weeks being given double the manufacturers recommended dosage then they are sre flying in the face of the manufacturers & should just 1 pup suffer vaccinosis because of their rules they leave themselves bring open to compensation claims for treatment

Anne R Smith:  My goodness!  When I said I was losing the will to take any more info on board  in my last post - this is just tipping me over the edge.  Is anybody trustworthy? Need to go into my kennel block now and just give my guys a wee treat and thank them for being so uncomplicated. (probably the reason I prefer dogs to humans)

>Any vet who vaccinated dogs over 10 weeks of age more than once for the core vaccines is going against the manufacturers guidance.

WSAVA and BSAVA agree that leptospirosis is a core vaccine in the UK. The initial leptospirosis vaccine needs two injections, 2 to 4 weeks apart, to be considered to provide adequate immunity. Therefore all puppies should, if the vet is following the correct protocol, have two injections for the puppy course, either DHP/L twice (if the first is given below 10 weeks) or DHP/L followed by L (if the course is started at later than 10 weeks.) at whatever age it's given.

Agree its the timing of.the first vaccine ,lepto excepting, that dictates if.pup is to have one or two.vaccines or possibly 3 as I have heard in some.cases. 
The data sheets confirm.this

>Any vet who vaccinated dogs over 10 weeks of age more than once for the core vaccines is going against the manufacturers guidance.

It doesn't matter what the manufacturers' guidance is, it matters what the science and research is. Manufacturers for some reason put out guidance which is at odds with research. Even the WSAVA recommends that the primary vaccine course ends no earlier than 16 weeks: https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/WSAVA-Vaccination-Guidelines-2015.pdf  "The recommendation of the VGG is for initial core vaccination at 6–8 weeks of age, then every 2–4 weeks until 16 weeks of age or older."

For example, there is research showing that maternal antibodies very commonly persist until 14-16 weeks of age. There are even instances where they continue until 18-20wks of age. Avidog recommends a protocol whereby the mother (dog) is tested in the final weeks of pregnancy and her blood sent off to form a nomograph which determines at what age her puppies should be vaccinated for the vaccine to be effective. Many Avidog breeders have discovered their puppies have maternal antibodies until they are 16-18 weeks of age and vaccines would be ineffective.

In reality this means that many dogs in the UK are completely unprotected in their first year of life (until their first booster) and it's only because of the low incidence of disease and the fact that dogs over a year old are protected due to a booster at that age or older, that we don't get more disease outbreaks.

I now give a final DHP vaccine at 20 weeks of age and would not feel safe that first year unless the primary course finished this late. A titre test is also useless at this point because it cannot discriminate between maternal antibodies and vaccine protection, so cannot be used until over 20 weeks (according to Vaccicheck themselves).

1234 if u give one at 20 weeks what age do u give the first or do u delay everything until 20 ?

I'm lucky that I currently live in a very very low risk area for parvo, so that factors into things too.

I give the 1st vaccine at 9wks, delaying just one week because I still can't quite bring myself to put the pup down everywhere without *any* vaccines - but I do know that there's a chance that 9wk vaccine was completely ineffective.

Then I wait till 20wks. I go everywhere in my immediate area - training classes, town - I don't restrict socialisation because I've delayed the vaccination. The last case of parvo in my remote area was 6 years ago.

I also give only DHP, no Lepto - so I don't need to worry about the required 4 weeks between Lepto 4 jabs, and having to factor all that in. I am also really fortunate to have finally found a vet who works with me and does what I ask on all this, even though I know it's not what she tells her other clients to do or usually does. (But I did send her about 10 papers on the lepto jab and my thoughts on that - because she asked to see the research - I never got a reply back from her but I assume I've proven that I've researched the subject LOL!)

For me, the priority is to ensure the dog is properly protected through the majority of the year when I might travel outside my immediate area and into high risk parvo locations. The risks of that would IMO be far higher if my dog stopped vaccinations very early and was effectively unvaccinated: I'm happy to take more risks during puppyhood given I live in a safe area, if I know we are 99% likely protected after that. I also feel confident not giving even the 1st year booster if my final vaccine of the initial course has been at 20 weeks or older - because I know that one has taken. So I get to skip another vaccine in my dog. So the pros of this outweigh the slightly increased risk in puppyhood.

If I lived in a higher risk area for parvo, I might do what is done in the US - which is to give 3 DHP jabs a few weeks apart, 9wks, 13wks and 20wks. Or not do the 20wks vaccine but run a titre test after 20wks to test whether the earlier vaccinations took - then I know if I need to do a final one or if we're good. (I don't like the stress of doing blood draws though, so I always factor that into things and would probably just do a 3rd vaccine.) I wish we could run nomographs as Avidog breeders in the US, but short of shipping bloods to the US with FedEx and ensuring bitches are tested (stressful) in the last few weeks of pregnancy, this isn't possible.

thank u that makes sense .

> .  I have to have temperature controlled kennels with daily reports on each. I have to have a waste management programme - monthly invoice notification - feeding records daily and signed. cleaning regime also signed -

This is one reason most good breeders do notvwant to increase breeding numbers.

For those whose councils insist on considering any breedingbto be commercial will mean people won't breed, or will give up.

Most of us fit in breeding around our hobby and lives.

So thevwell meaning insistence on more licensing, even for one litter, drives out the goid caring occasional breeder.

It means that to make all the hassle worthwhile breeding will be done mainly by larger scale breeders, in purpose built kennels.

Some of these may have decent facilities re hygene and physical care.

Sadly they will lack the to most of us thebessential human interaction, and long term emotional needs of the breeding dogs.

There is also no room for the development and maintenance of breeds and bloodlines to a high standard.

Breed enthusiasts do not make breeding decisions based primarily on finance.

Breedingbexpensive litters by choising to import dogs, or travel overseas for studs, importing semen etc.

We also are rarely likely to use our own or most local studs.

Of course, there are bad small scale/single litter breeders, and horrific large scale licensed breeders, and everything in between.

Enforcement of all dog laws is poor.

It is far easier to monitor the more visible and honest pet lover, than the puppy farmer who knows all the tricks to avoid detection.

So the rules become onerous to those who don't need to be subjected to thevred tape, and are flouted by the greeder puppy producers who largely breed unregistered un traceable stock.

Brainless: Response to daily routine:  This is one reason most good breeders do not want to increase breeding numbers
When your dogs are your life you take all responsibility on board whether you own one or ten of them.  I love this daily routine ( I wasn't complaining just emphasising how involved I am and what it entails)
Sadly the dogs will lack essential human interaction
My group are highly trained working dogs who have human interaction all day whether it be socially with myself and teams of Guns/Shooting Parties. With my Game Keepers or hour long walks with the girls who help me with the kennels and I agree not every commercial breeder has the lifestyle that can incorporate a fantastic life for their animals and those are the ones who tend to be unscrupulous and the ones who want to avoid detection.
Just to throw a question out there - do the members beleive it would have been better to have no legal changes to rules of licensing or the red tape in light of the fact Brainless has expressed and I totally agree with that policing is really poor despite legislation?

Maybe start a new thread we are really off at 2 tangents now with another question

Furriefriends:  Totally agree - I've suggested this 3 times already....would you like to open a new thread?  Happy to get involved in discussion

Why not start a new thread yourself Hoggie

I was referring to your last question hoggie. As its your question  it should be u to start a new thread

Jodi:  happy to if someone can tell me how?

go to board index ,decide which area.suits your new thread best , go to new post ,add title and then the comment / question

furriefriends: thank you

Sorry that should have read go to post not new post but I am sire u will  beable to.sort it out