I bought a bitch a good few yrs ago.

She is mine. Mine only, not co owned
I signed a contract acknowledging there are endorsements in place.

Both parties knew there was always intentions to breed a litter from said bitch. She was pick of litter to show.

From day one pressure has been on from breeder.
I got health tests done as early as i could.
I aggressively campaigned this bitch in shows and she did very well. Breeder always proud,he took credit ect ect
She is dual purpose

Breeder has constantly moved goal posts

Tells me "priority is to work and have her lightly shown"
Then suddenly wants titles
First in ring
Then in field
Then its get a SBN and what not

Either of which is now on hold due to covid.

Then its use this so and so stud in a completely different country

Bitch is now of age where i dont want it left too much longer to breed. I don't want a too old a bitch to have her first litter

Where on earth do i stand?

I'm losing sleep.

Its killed my passion for wanting to show ect
And im even debating getting out of the breed i love

First question did she pass her health tests?

I take from the field comment you have a gundog, training to the gun unless you know what you are doing is not easy.

What endorsements are on her, my contracts when I breed state the requirements to lift them.

He has no say in the dog you use it is your choice he can advise and that is it

What exactly does the contract say. if it states what health checks are required to be done and passed and you have passed them you have meet the contract requirements

Thankyou for replying Yes she passed  kc recommended health tests and tests that aren't kc recommended but just as important in the breed, and had very good scores.

The contract literally states that the buyer has acknowledged the endorsements.

Being that  the progency isn't eligible for registration and export

It never stated, endorsements will or will not be lifted if buyer does or doesnt do x y z

Tough one - I state in my contract that health tests must be done and acceptable results AND I must meet the bitch to check her temperament and she is a good example of the breed before I lift the restriction.

For some reason it appears the breeder isn't keen to lift restrictions, if you have kept all correspondence relating to her asking more of you it ay well be worth asking the KC to get involved.

I had a lady wanting to use my boy on her fully health tested bitch but the breeder refused to lift the restriction - she's a pet breeder, never shows her dogs and knew this lady would like a litter in the future - I just don't understand their reasoning - power control freaks!

If time is passing re taking a litter from her, and she really is a top quality animal with enough good to contribute to her breed, I'd take this to the Kennel Club.   They have been known to lift endorsements (which personally annoys me but there are always two sides to a story - and judging, results, is subjective).

>The contract literally states that the buyer has acknowledged the endorsements.  Being that  the progency isn't eligible for registration and export  It never stated, endorsements will or will not be lifted if buyer does or doesnt do x y z

Unfortunately you've bought an endorsed dog and as far as the paperwork goes, there are no specified situations where the endorsement would be lifted. So the KC are unlikely to lift the endorsement without the breeder's agreement. That's what endorsements are for.

So this is between you and the breeder - you either jump through their hoops and/or explain your concerns and plead with them, or give up - because the KC aren't going to help.

> <br />So this is between you and the breeder - you either jump through their hoops and/or explain your concerns and plead with them, or give up - because the KC aren't going to help.

This is how it should be.   Sadly I have known the KC to over-rule what a breeder intended, and had expected the KC not to interfere.

All I can say is talk to breeder asking exactly what they want to lift endorsements, if it is not possible due to covid explain this and state age of your girl. Say you are running out of time to have her first litter due to her age I would even use the dog they want to get the results I wanted.

If no results come talk to the kennel club about where you stand

I too would use the dog they want, as once endorsement is lifted, you can use your preference next time.

It could be they would like the option of having a pup back from you from that combination, or hope that pups from the breeding could be incorporated in their plans later.

Could of course mean as your Novices (assuming here) they are keen you don't undo their good work with an unsuitable ( with their deeper knowledge) combination.

Experienced breeders often know of potential pitfalls, on pairings that on the face of it look excellent.

Thankyou everyone.

Up until now i have been compliant, even agreeing to the stud they want.

But when ive been explaining the covid situ and what not, ive been straight up ignored...or had subject changed in a dozen occasions now

Her next season isnt far off and its gunna be impossible to get a title or abbreviations on her between now and then.

With the choice of stud situation: You don't want to breed whilst the endorsement is in place - due to the risk of breeding and then (for whatever reason!) them refusing to lift the endorsement. So you need to get it lifted before you breed.

In which case, you can just agree to their choice of stud, get the endorsement lifted and then change the stud to whatever you want. You might piss them off, but they can't do anything...

> In which case, you can just agree to their choice of stud, get the endorsement lifted and then change the stud to whatever you want. You might piss them off, but they can't do anything...

They may not lift endorsement until the dog has mated the bitch!!

I don't think I'd ever breed a bitch if I had this weird non-trusting relationship with someone who put the endorsement on and there was a risk they might not lift it.

Who wants to end up with a litter you've always wanted - only you can't register them?!

Tbh I'm heart broken over this. This bitch is such an honest and biddable dog to train and work, shes more than proved her worth for her breed standard in the ring. I was so looking forward to owning her progency

Ive agreed to use the stud the breeder wanted .. And as soon as i agree to his latest stipulations, he comes out with some other hoop to jump through

Is there a third party who could mediate for you?

Your bitches sire's owner perhaps?

Have you tried putting your requests in writing tobelucit a written agreement of what they require?

Are you both members of your breed club?

What hoops are they giving you now??

I am fed up reading posts like this one.
People really need to stop abusing these endorsements, they should ONLY be used for a valid reason like health conditions.
In fact I think a better endorsement would be ALL PROGENY MUST BE REGISTERED.
Also the kennel club should be the only ones to put on or take off.
You keep hearing responsible breeders endorse, well I was a responsible breeder and I never needed to use them.
I would not buy an endorsed pup or adult either.
As by endorsing you practically say you don't trust your own breeding or puppy buyers.

>Also the kennel club should be the only ones to put on or take off.

How can the KC hope to know which puppies will turn out suitable to breed from eventually?

>As by endorsing you practically say you don't trust your own breeding or puppy buyer

By endorsing you're acknowledging that your crystal ball is malfunctioning and that you don't know what the pup's eye test at 6 weeks old, its hearing test at the same age, or it's hip and elbow scores at 12+ months will be.

A better idea - if change is needed - would be for all registered puppies to be automatically endorsed and then the endorsement/s lifted only if health tests, temperament tests and independent assessment (by a minimum of three different people) at 12 or 18 months of age are all satisfactory.

That is more like many FCI countries, where to be registered a litter has to have more than merely registered parents.

It can all get a bit crazy though. One of mine can only have endorsements lifted if (as well as health testing) she wins a field trial. I'm all up for achieving that but trialling is expensive and time consuming. Even getting a run can be difficult - and when breeders put such incredibly high requirements on the lifting of endorsements, it only further limits the gene pool: She has an incredible pedigree, yet many substandard dogs will be bred from galore because their breeders didn't put any endorsements on - whilst she might never be bred from if life gets in the way for me and I just can't get to trials, even if she is a fantastic working dog. It did really make me consider whether to go ahead with getting her as a pup, TBH. And you don't want to be putting off 'good' owners who are ambitious, with endorsements...

I would be highly dubious of a breeder who didn't endorse. Do they not care who breeds from the animals they have bred?
Pet only never to be lifted makes sense in a contract.
If someone works, shows, exhibits in some way and have it written health tests to be done and give parameters of what is deemed acceptable in say hips and elbows etc and then the breeder and owner to meet and discuss and also the dog or bitch is of good quality and of sound body and mind. It should all be written into a contract if a breeder is prepared to lift and under what circumstances.

I do believe that lifting requirements should be reasonable.

Primarily health, temperament, and typical, with showing working ability.

Many super dogs are owned by people who can't campaign their dogs to highest levels. Sad for their genes to be lost.

One of my mentors (RIP), who with small numbers has produced the record of UK champions, mostly owned by others, had a decade where she hardly showed due to work commitments.

I am sure there are other top breeders who have had to curtail competing in whatever arena, as life gets in the way.

Some excellent dogs have been produced for others by mentored Novice or even pet owners, especially with older mentors winding down their own breeding..

Yes, there is the opposite too - people who enjoy competing with dogs but don't want to breed (or are too busy competing to breed and raise puppies!). So those people could easily fulfil the requirements and criteria - but the dog doesn't get bred from. Meanwhile their littermate, with similar genes, went to a non-competition home who does have time and desire to breed... but can't because they haven't fulfilled the requirements. So - neither get bred from and the genes stop there.

Although the littermates will have similar genes, they won't be the same, and could have developed possibly major faults; one might have developed epilepsy, one might have bad hips, one might be nervous ...

It's not until adulthood that an individual can be seriously assessed as a potential breeding animal, at which stage it's far too late for endorsements to be applied (unless the breeder has kept them all in their name and possession). This is why a whole litter needs to be endorsed and lifted when a sensible assessment can be made.

Oh yes, every litter I have bred have all been endorsed.

Suejaw that's the thing we can't stop people from breeding endorsed or not.
All breeders are doing by refusing to lift endorsements is limiting their breeds gene pool.

Pet only never to be lifted makes sense in a contract.

Agree 100%. This is what my contract says now.

Of course if they decided to work or show their dog and got very much into it and felt they would be someone trustworthy to breed and then did all the health tests which came back good and the dog was a good example in all avenues then I may then lift but selling stating that they agree never to breed from the dog ever and endorsements will never be lifted should cover you either way.

All breeders are doing by refusing to lift endorsements is limiting their breeds gene pool.

Quite the opposite. Selling unendorsed pups is opening the floodgates. In my main breed, you used to be able to tell who had bred a dog just by its looks and the breeders all knew where their puppies were. If there was a single one in rescue in a YEAR that was bad, but always got sorted out. Now 95% of all pups bred are not endorsed or from health tested parents and sold without care and suddenly there is a major rescue problems with dogs ending up in rescue every day.

You could say exactly the same about endorsements.
Surely it better to help than just say no I won't lift them for any reason.
It's no wonder there's so many crazy crossbreeds now and yes mostly from endorsed or unregistered dogs.

I think there has to be a happy compromise, where endorsements are placed but the requirements to lift them can't be so high that almost no dogs will meet them. Pedigree dogs are in a poor situation as far as genetic diversity goes anyway, further limiting the gene pools really isn't doing the breeds we love any favours at all.

By all means, ensure the dogs are health-tested and good examples of the breed but don't set the criteria for that at some pinnacle of achievement but at something sensible and 'decent'.

Personally as a breeder, I've put endorsements on my litters with the requirement to health test and to prove that the dog is worked or competed with in some way and is showing promise. (I have a very detailed and specific list of things I'd accept and they are not difficult to achieve, but I wanted to avoid people just breeding because they fancied a litter from their pet dog which they don't 'do' anything with.)

I really don't like the idea of endorsements on a dog I purchase myself and I'm looking to import from Europe in future to avoid having to deal with endorsements as they seem to just be commonplace on most UK litters these days.

>Surely it better to help than just say no I won't lift them for any reason.

If a pup has been found to have a health fault that it could pass on, then it would be entirely fair to say that it could never be bred from. Otherwise the conditions under which the endorsement would be lifted need to be written out carefully and signed by both parties, so that there could be no misunderstandings in the future. The only problems with endorsements have arisen when the terms for lifting haven't been made clear.

Surely it better to help than just say no I won't lift them for any reason.

No, tried that, utter disaster -which was why I changed to never lifting for dogs that are pets only. We don't have a small genepool either despite being a fairly small breed numerically, so many imports, so many bitches taken abroad to be mated.

Well I agree with that jeangenie.

My own contract states that should owner wish to breed then all appropriate health testing must be carried out, the pup must be a typical example with correct temperament and bred in accordance with our breed clubs code of ethics.

The COE lists requirements such as minimum and maximum age for first litter, breeder responsibility, suitable environment etc.

When in Canada and a member of the BHCC, one of the rules was that all immature stock be sold with a non breeding endorsement.   Further, for me, if there is such an endorsement, anybody deciding they'd like to get into breeding would take the dog back to the breeder for the endorsement to be lifted, at which point that breeder could be involved in mentoring the owner, including advising them which stud dog would nick best with their bitch.   Endorsements are not all bad.

That's exactly how they should be used.

I state in my contract that the endorsements are to protect the dog and the breed.

> I state in my contract that the endorsements are to protect the dog and the breed.

..... and your bloodline eh!!

> ..... and your bloodline eh!!

LOL, sort of the same thing to my mind.

As you say, if they have to remain in contact re endorsements etc, they can be mentored, and encouraged in appropriate direction.

There is a huge difference between mentoring, and controlling.

Just a thought re protecting bloodlines.

My breed has never been numerous.

During WW2 many dog breeders sent stock to Ireland, to save bloodlines.

So there was a pool of most breeds there.

Now sadly e find that most of our rescues come from Puppy farming/Commercial/Casual litters bred in Ireland, or their offspring brought here, their pups usually mickey mouse registered..

It is sad to see that many of these become very untypical after a few generations, especially in temperament, and health.

In small numbered breeds this can severely affect a breeds reputation.

When people primarily meet poor breed representatives, they don't know what the true characteristics of a breed are, should be.

Actually thinking about it, applies as much to popular breeds too.

I’m very disappointed to read the original post purely because I think in the UK there seems to be this culture of not wanting other people to breed, but not just breed at all, but to breed high quality dogs. For starters, if you want to become a serious dog fancier to support the improvement and preservation of your breed, where do you start if you don’t already ‘know’ someone?

In this case I would just simply be taking all the correspondence from day 1 (with the personal info excluding names redacted) to the KC and stating that the endorsements are being used to prevent a good mating without valid reason.

To the poster who said a good endorsement would be “all progeny must be registered”, I wholeheartedly agree and recently welcomed my first import baby (because I became disillusioned with the breeders in my breed in the UK who seem to put ego above everything). I was honest with her breeder from the start that I hope to breed and she has been very supportive. In my contract, the only stipulations (although note no endorsements on pedigree) are that I must breed to a FCI or KC registered dog, both dogs to meet all breed health criteria and all puppies to be registered. The FCI seems more interested in how they protect pedigree dogs from being used to create new hybrids in my opinion.

Good luck to the post’s author, I hope you get the result you want and it’s sounds, deserve.

>In this case I would just simply be taking all the correspondence from day 1 (with the personal info excluding names redacted) to the KC and stating that the endorsements are being used to prevent a good mating without valid reason.

But the purchaser signed an agreement and contract saying that she was fully aware of the endorsements and there were no circumstances given under which the endorsement could be lifted. As such, the KC won't lift the endorsement.

Heck, someone could have bought a dog with a known health issue or a dog which is the result of an accidental breeding with a high COI or risky health results, and perhaps doesn't want that dog to ever be bred on from - so they put the endorsement on.

If there had been a list of reasons 'Purchaser and seller agree that endorsements will be lifted subject to the dog achieving XYZ' and then both parties signed that, then yes - there would be a real basis to want the KC to lift it if you met all the requirements and they were still refusing.


For starters, if you want to become a serious dog fancier to support the improvement and preservation of your breed, where do you start if you don’t already ‘know’ someone?

If someone intends to become a'serious"exhibitor then they do not start by buying a dog/bitch to solely breed from. They go to shows & see what type of their chosen breed they like( which might not be the top winning dogs in the breed), then talk to the breeders of the dogs & then start with the best quality puppy they can find & show the dog/bitch & hopefully have some success. A friend of mine started to show their dog of the chosen breed( which was a nice dog but not really a show dog) they got into conversation at a small show with the owner/breeder of the Bob winner, who was a gorgeous quality bitch. After 6 months or so of talking & meeting at shows, the breeder offered them a show quality puppy that she had run on, but hadn't the time to show due to having a young dog of her other breed who was having a highly successful show career( he won an old Junior Warrant & CCs) & the breeds were on different days at Championship shows. They were only allowed to have the bitch if they agreed to actively campaign her which they did. The bitch gained several Best puppy in Breed at Championship shows & they made her up for her breeder & these was in days that the entries in the breed was always well over 250. Her CCs were all won with BOB over the top winning males & then breed record holder. Sadly she contracted an infection that meant she never had any puppies, but her breeder was always proud of "her girl" & her owners achievement when a particular fashionable Kennel dominated the breed & the bitch had no connection with it

This is almost exactly how I got started nearly five years ago! I hadn’t thought about showing at all, but someone encouraged me to have a go and although my boy was ok, he wasn’t top quality. As I got to know people, I began to learn more about the breed and what makes a good dog and my next pup did much better. Showing is very ‘moreish’ and soon became my hobby during retirement. I’m now thinking about a litter, just the one - not sure I can handle the stress more than once - currently waiting for hips and elbows scores to come back, then we’ll see.

Hi can you help me please. I am buy a pedigree puppy and breeding is putting on endorsements for not breeding, I have discuss with breeder my intent to breed after all health tests done, breeder said she will lift endorsements once all tests are completed . Do I need this in writing put on the contact from breeder or do I write about a form for breeder to sign ? Help please not sure wether i need a letter or form for breeder to sign . I don’t want to buy this puppy with the intent to breed and then breeder decided not to lift endorsements?

You absolutely need it in writing, ideally the breeder needs to write out that you understand the endorsements which are in place and they need to outline the circumstances under which they would be lifted. Signed and both of you need to have a copy.
It’s so much easier when it’s all in black and white should the breeder be difficult down the line. Of course a good breeder won’t be difficult for no good reason, but if you have everything in writing and signed there is no room for confusion. There is an endorsement template on the KC website but I don’t think it allows for circumstances under which they would be lifted.

The Kennel Club have just introduced a new form about lifting Restrictions - apparently they won't be lifting any unless this form is signed - Ask the breeder if they're prepared to sign it.  As a breeder myself, I would only lift restrictions if all health tests were completed with good results

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/5075/endorsment-form.pdf

I have mixed feelings about the whole endorsements thing. As a breeder, I've always put them on so far. As a buyer, I don't want to purchase a puppy with them on ever again.

The thing is, if people really want to breed from their dog, they will - endorsements or not. We see that on here all the time. I've had a puppy buyer buy a pup from me, not complete all the health tests (only half of them) and breed their dog to another dog of the same breed - and sell the pups unregistered for almost the same as registered. (This was at the start of Covid lockdown puppy craziness.)

Another way to look at the bigger picture: Let's assume all responsible breeders put endorsements on. Loads of people choose to breed anyway, regardless. The resulting puppies are now outside the gene pool for the breeds concerned - we can't use them or their descendants (even if we health tested their descendants). They just don't exist, for our purposes. That is a massive loss of genetic diversity for pedigree breeds - at a time when we are fighting a loss of genetic diversity anyway.

I can totally see the point of using the endorsements just until health testing is done. But many people use them to make buyers jump through other hoops. One dog I own has an endorsement on her which states that it won't be lifted until she wins a Novice field trial(!!!). It just gets a bit ridiculous...

Anyway, I have mixed feelings.

As a member of the Canadian Basset Hound Club, we were 'required' to put non-breeding endorsements on all immature stock.  Which I did.

The one thing I will never stop regretting was not putting endorsements, especially Not for Export, on two I sold to a fellow breeder because of the element of trust.  When they were around 2, she sold both (male and female) to another breeder in Europe where the female was bred 5 times (a year apart each time).  The male was used quite a lot, but that's not quite the same as with a bitch (even if her litters were small).  I wept.

I too have mixed feelings - someone asked to use one of my boys as stud (same breed - KC registered etc)

When she bought the pup she did say to the breeder that she may well like a litter in the future.  Puppy endorsed, had all health tests done and breeder still wouldn't lift restriction.

Really don't understand why, but what can you do?