Hello I would like your  opinions please.  I would like to be come a breeder. I have owned and Trained my border collie’s for many years. and I am semi retired I would like to go into hobby breeding. I would like to buy a kc registered fully health tested bitch puppy for hopefully be my  foundation  bitch and of course do all health tests required and find the most suitable health tested stud dog . but I have been looking for over a year now for a suitable bitch puppy. But what I am finding is the breeders will not lift endorsements off their pedigree puppies. I am happy to do what ever it takes from DNA hips scoring every thing, but they still say no . please can you tell me how do I get my first puppy? if no one is willing to take off endorsements after satisfactory  test results Completed.

The problem from your point of view is that most responsible breeders do not breed as an end in iself.

Breeding is an aspect of serious invlvement in your chosen breed as an exhibitor, competitor in dog sports, or working your dogs.

A breeder should be aiming to maintain their breed in a healthy state, and seek to breed on dogs that improve on those aims.

So a breeder of a good quality  show type would be looking forbsomeone to immerse themselves in shows, andbstudy the breed. Ditto ISFS registered breeders would be looking for people wanting to work sheep and or compete in sheepdogbtrials, and want to build a breeding program for that purpose, ditto Workin Trials, Obedience in itself.

To such a breeder your definition of Hobby breeder is not ours.

A Hobby breeder is one who breeds as a result and to further their canine hobby and fascination for their breed.

Exactly what Barbara said.

Your goal should not be breeding a litter of puppies. It should be doing X activity with your dog (and hopefully excelling at it). And you might need to do this with a dog or two, before purchasing a dog you hope to breed - so that the breeders can see that you are successful with your dogs in your chosen activity.

so how did you get started. it’s like a closed class that no one can join . I said I have trained and owned border collie training to the highest level  isn’t that proofing enough .and I know that I  responsible  Enough to know all about health tests and finding the right stud dog to go with the right pedigree don’t make me out to be a fool

Did you not have a litter in February? was there not a suitable bitch puppy for you to run on and show to ascertain if she was breed standard and of good enough quality to start your line ? Or was this a different breed.
Most responsible breeders don't sell puppies just to be bred on from they would want to build up a working relationship first.

>Breeding is an aspect of serious invlvement in your chosen breed as an exhibitor, competitor in dog sports, or working your dogs.

As some of you know, I have been breeding the Coton de Tuléar for the past 25 years and am now stopping, due to advancing age.  That's why I name my breed straight out, as I will have no more puppies and have no need to advertise.

The coton is a companion breed, and therefore not a breed intended for sports, working, hunting, guarding, retrieving or whatever.  So that would rule out all the breeding goals mentioned above-  and in other posts - except exhibitions.  There are a great many people out there who are of the opinion that it is extremely undesirable and damaging to breed solely for show results.  The addiction to show success allows judges to have an enormous influence over the development of the breed.  In the coton, for instance (a relatively "young" recognised breed), it has caused a predominance of pure white (cotons ARE predominantly white, but not exclusively) as well as excessive coat.  There have been negative consequences - as in many breeds - of these types of cosmetic fads, promoted primarily in the show ring.  Judges in the ring observe each dog for a total of how many minutes?  Three?  Maybe five?  And then they must make their pronouncements..  As long as the pigmentation is OK, the coton with the most coat will win.  So shows, in the opinion of many, can have very undesirable consequences and are shunned as a breeding goal.

I have bred my coton puppies for 25 years to be healthy, as beautiful as possible, and well-socialised so that they can be what they are meant to be:  lovely, happy, well-adjusted companions.  I have chosen my own dogs carefully.  I've showed some myself in past years and made it to vice world-champion 2000 in Milan.  I was thrilled!!  But that's not why I bred cotons.  I have wanted simply to make really good dogs for really good people. I wanted my dogs to be healthy and happy, and I wanted the people who trusted me enough to adopt one of my puppies to be happy too.  I fully accepted and welcomed this responsibility.  In the main, I have enjoyed tremendous rewards and deep satisfaction.  How much I have "improved the breed", I really can't say.  I have not sold puppies to very many breeders in any case.  What I CAN say with certainty is that I have never harmed it.  And I have made a lot of people very happy.

Is this not a valid reason to breed?  I believe it is.

Just because you can train dogs doesn't mean that you will be a suitable to start breeding.

Why will you be breeding? What are your aims?

I have several friends who breed from their dogs from time to time. Their main reasons are to produce healthy puppies for themselves that are suitable for the work/purpose they were originally bred for. For example GSDs were originally a shepherding breed & my friends dogs nearly all go to working homes. They always keep a minimum of 1 puppy to work their stock. The others have become successful services dog & also search & rescue dogs as well as stock workers. My friend who breeds working Border Collies(not sports dogs)only breeds when he needs a dog for himself, the rest go to work stock or do canine activities. Another friend who has a toy breed, again breeds for themselves first & for companions. They all do full health testing & take time to select studs to improve the breed both physically and mentally.

None of them breed for breeding sake, yes they are breeders, but they do not buy a dog or keep a puppy solely to breed from. They probably would not sell a puppy to someone solely to become a brood bitch or a stud dog, because it would go against their ethics.

I know of many people who think because they own a dog/bitch they should bred from them because they want to become 'a breeder'.

Didn't you keep a puppy from your litter? Did you manage to register the pups on the breed register or did you not get the endorsement(s) lifted?

> I said I have trained and owned border collie training to the highest level  isn’t that proofing enough

Well, not really, it sounds a bit vague...

> so how did you get started. it’s like a closed class that no one can join . I said I have trained and owned border collie training to the highest level  isn’t that proofing enough .and I know that I  responsible  Enough to know all about health tests and finding the right stud dog to go with the right pedigree don’t make me out to be a fool

It's great you know about testing and you do things with your dogs, what sort of training are your talking about? It could help BC people reading this to know what your interests are, herding, obedience, agility ect.

For me I started out with my girl originally no plans to breed. I showed her, did some flyball and had her health testing done, more so for my own knolege and the breeders as I'm a firm believer in testing pets not just breeding dogs. My girl ended up being nice enough and her breeder asked me if I was considering breeding. I already knew the terms of them lifting the endorsements so we had a chat about it and we went from there.

I'd say most breeders will want to get to know you first to make sure they are happy that your going to breed responsibly and that they agree with why you want to breed. They will likely want to see you work/compeat/show your current dogs. Some breeder flatly refuse to ever allow breeding though.
Normally I'd advise you to go to some shows (if thats the type your after) and speak to the people and breeders there, see the dogs in the ring and start to build that relationship. Although at the moment there are no shows with covid.

Having posted what I did last night, I thought of something I'd like to add:

Yes, the Coton de Tuléar is a companion breed, a wonderful family dog.  But I do want to mention that I have sold puppies who were subsequently trained and licensed to be therapy dogs in hospitals, who have become adept at agility and have won prizes for Dog Dancing.  A friend of mine, who breeds small poodlles and Loewchen, has sold two puppies to people who have trained them to be diabetes dogs, warning the owner of an imminent blood-sugar plunge.  So lilttle breeds need not be couch potatoes or glamorous show dogs whose fur must never touch anything but linoleum (I read that years ago about showing Shih-Tzus in California...smile).  They may not be able to lead the blind or rescue avalanche victims, but they can be a wonderful comfort to the infirm (children and adults), the handicapped or the very old, both in performance (eg. dog dancing) and in simply allowing themselves to be stroked.  The effect of dogs on human beings is vastly underestimated, and our little breeds can work wonders.

To me and most people primary purpose of a dog is PET.  A pet should be well balanced mentally, physically healthy and if a pedigree resemble breed standard but the third part is less important to the first two.

I'm sorry I can't help you OP, not being a breeder myself or knowing about your breed.  I do have some comments on the subject of new breeders though that I'd like to make, partly due to the responses you have had and partly due to reflecting on some other posts recently on these boards, if that's OK.

Isn’t it a mistake to be discouraging to the well-meaning, hopeful future breeders who reach out for help?  There is a market for puppies.  The show/working hobby breeders who only breed when they want a pup themselves just don’t produce anywhere near enough puppies a year to meet that demand. I am sure hobby breeders on these boards have turned away plenty of reasonable puppy buyers in the past and where are those families to go once you’ve said no?  If there aren't enough responsible, high welfare breeders who create good dogs for good families, then it’s the low end puppy mill who will fill the gap - as we have seen during this pandemic. 

Surely it makes more sense that ANY breeders who place animal welfare high on their agenda should be working cooperatively together to make it as difficult as possible for those low-welfare puppy producers to be profitable? 

Why can’t experienced breeders be more welcoming of new beginner breeders into the ranks, helping and guiding them to produce healthy dogs, of good temperament and to a breed standard that is in the interests of the health of the dogs?  Surely working collaboratively does more to secure the strength of the breeds going forward than setting the bar for entry too high for any but an elite few?

The OP is already a breeder having bred a litter in Jan/Feb this year. The are now looking for a bitch solely to breed more litters.

What most responsible breeders want for their puppies is a home where they are valued & well treated for themselves & not simply to be bred from as a "hobby" what happens if the puppy fails a health test? Is the puppy rehomed because it should not be bred from?

I had a super BC with an impeccable pedigree, sadly he had a health condition, that whilst not affecting his quality of life, meant he should not be bred from. If I had bought him purely to breed from (which I didn't he was bought as a pet & not a stud) should I have got rid of him & bought another?

You cannot guarantee that an 8 week old puppy will be suitable to be bred from & unless you are planning to keep any breeding failures & end up with a kennels of such failures in the search for a puppy good enough to breed from a responsible breeder is unlikely to let you have have a bitch destined to be a puppy machine

Thank you you do make a lot of sense. I appreciate that.

> Why can’t experienced breeders be more welcoming of new beginner breeders into the ranks, helping and guiding them to produce healthy dogs, of good temperament and to a breed standard that is in the interests of the health of the dogs?  Surely working collaboratively does more to secure the strength of the breeds going forward than setting the bar for entry too high for any but an elite few?

From my own experience I found breeders in my breed welcoming of new people and supportive. Although if someone new and unknown to the breed community came along immediately wanted a breeding dog that would likely concern many breeders as if they don't know them how can they be sure of their motives in breeding? what with many people breeding with the aim to make profit first (I'm not saying this is what the op is planning but why some breeders will want to get to know them or ask lots of questions first), as breeders don't want their puppies ending up in an irresponsible breeding home or being moved on if the puppy does not grow to be sutible for breeding.

This is a brilliant post, thank you.

> Why can’t experienced breeders be more welcoming of new beginner breeders into the ranks, helping and guiding them to produce healthy dogs, of good temperament and to a breed standard that is in the interests of the health of the dogs?  Surely working collaboratively does more to secure the strength of the breeds going forward than setting the bar for entry too high for any but an elite few?

I have a numerically small breed, and our breeders are anxious to encourage potential new breeders.

I was encouraged and mentored after I bought my foundation bitch as a companion.

I proved my interest to the breeder, and her sires owners who were 'doyennes of the breed', spoke to them regularly, asked for photos of parents/grandparents.

I joined the breed club, bought decades of club publications, and proved to them that I was developing a passion for the breed.

I then started showing, and then asked their advice re breeding.

I had gained their trust.

That was 28 years ago.

First litter bred 25 years ago with their full support.

I have bred on 7 generations since, and supported puppy buyers that wanted to breed.

Unfortunately also found that many would be breeders when realising the commitment needed, did not join me as breed custodians, the responsibilities, time and financial commitment are onerous.

In breeds where there is a big rescue issue, breeders may seem over protective, until you realise why.

All breeders have to start somewhere but usually its because they have gotten into showing, agility, obedience, working trials etc.
They learn more about their chosen breed by speaking to breeders and exhibitors alike. They join a breed club and learn more.
To say to a breeder I want a puppy to breed when you aren't known in the breesmd is usually a no from most.
I would suggest you seek a breeder who breeds to the standard and also competes in the chosen field you want to get involved in and start yourself into that field.

I wouldn't sell a random person a puppy who wasn't known to me to allow them to breed if they haven't been known by others either.
Ita not just about health testing, its about type, temperament and breed standard. Not every pup bred in a litter is suitable to be bred on from so i now do contracts where endorsements will not be lifted.
If they are well known to me or are well known in the breed to others then I may consider things differently and well I have done.

So all in all I feel you are going about this the wrong way. Find a breeder that will be prepared to mentor you once you've embarked on the chosen activity and then ask once health tests have been done.. there will be no guarantee though with your 1st pup

Hi Valley.  I couldn't agree with you more!

I'd just like to say that not all breeders who purchase a puppy in the hopes of breeding from her (him) "get rid" of the dog the moment breeding, for whatever reason, is ruled out.  Generalising like that is dangerous. 

Here in Switzerland, the problem can occur because the dog failed the qualification-for-breeding test at around a year of age.  Or developed a patella problem or a bite problem or missing teeth, or whatever.  This is always a huge disappointment and frustration.  It has happened to me, it has happened to others I know, including my close friend of 25 years who breeds toy poodles and Loewchen.  We both have indeed "rehomed" a dog or two, but with the utmost care and the conviction, that the quality of life for that dog was thereby improved!  We have kept track of those dogs over the years.  We certainly did not just "get rid" of them.  If you are a breeder, and I mean by that a breeder who does not breed for a living, but out of a love for it, is it not perfectly understandable that you will want to acquire a dog with the hopes of breeding from him/her someday?  I have purchased dogs from top breeders (world-wide) for just this reason.  Of course I have!  And most of them lived with me for the rest of their lives until they died of old age.  Made some beautiful puppies along the way.

I agree very much with Valley, that new breeders who reach out for help and advice should be mentored, not simply discouraged!  There is no school for breeders to attend.  I was helped when I started out, and I am pleased if I can do the same for someone else now.  And for the doggies and their puppies and their new owners.

I did not state the ALL people who buy puppies solely to breed from get rid of them if they turn out unsuitable for breeding. I queried the fate of such puppies. I know of people who have done just that several times just as some people obtain puppies with the sole intention of competing in some form of canine activities & when they turn out unsuitable they are disposed of in one way or another do(again more than once)

Just learnt that this has happened again to one puppy hailed as the perfect next competition dog & which has now disappeared. Not a novice owner one of the top handlers in the activity. An owner who too has competed at the highest level successfully.

So you would sell a"novice"breeder you do not know a puppy solely for breeding from? I know if I was a breeder(which I am not) I certainly would not

>So you would sell a"novice"breeder you do not know a puppy solely for breeding from?

Of course not.

It is a matter of 'Trust' a breeder entrusts their puppies to new owners, with the expectation they will be loved and cared for.

To then 'Trust' that someone with breeding is a big step.

They then need to trust to them the future of the lines they have carefully nurtured, the breeds welfare, and their own reputation.

This 'Trust' has to be earned with time, and evidence of your commitment and ethics.

I'm not a breeder, but as someone currently on the waiting list for a puppy and having got a lot of stick for that because I didn't automatically get a rescue, I'm not sure I agree with the way this is being handled.

To be clear, I do plan to get rescues in the future if a suitable dog is advertised, but as my breed is border collies I was concerned about the potential emotional effects of being moved about like that on such a sensitive breed and didn't feel I'm currently up to training out bad habits as well as training in good ones at this present time. I feel that's reason enough to want a responsibly bred, health tested puppy.

But the argument that people make is that when you buy a puppy you kill a shelter dog. I do not agree with this, if all breeders stopped breeding dogs would be extinct in 20 years. The dogs that end up in shelters are likely not to have been responsibly bred because all responsible breeders should take back dogs that do not work out with a view to rehoming.

So the issue becomes not breeders, but bad breeders. I think it is for dogs' welfare that there are plenty of breeders who behave responsibly but are not involved in show or sport. Surely without mixing blood lines between eg sport and show dogs you risk reducing the gene pool?

There will always be a demand for dogs, and the more well bred dogs there are, the less demand there is for puppy mills. (I'd also personally like to see it become illegal to breed without a licence and regular inspections to crack down on this).

Like I say, I'm not a breeder and there are quite possibly a lot of things I don't understand, but insisting that breeders should be involved in competition seems short sighted to me when the majority of dogs will not be involved in competition and thus pet dogs (the ones most likely to enter shelters) are more likely to be irresponsibly bred.

Like I say, I'm not a breeder and there are quite possibly a lot of things I don't understand,

To breed pedigree dogs simply for the"pet"market means that it is unlikely that the puppies will be bred with care & knowledge for/of the breed. Pedigrees are not researched properly & health conditions that there are no tests to evaluate ignored. These breeders will use any convenient dog on their bitch regardless of inbreeding etc. Most purely pet litters are not typical representatives of the breed & along the way registration of puppies is not done & then unregistered dogs bred from with no health testing done.

Border collies have to be bred with care, to produce a balanced dog that is capable of being trained to do almost anything & also live comfortably as a pet.

Do I think everyone should rescue? No a friend of mine was in a position to have a dog again 6 years ago & was planning on getting a well bred Border Collie puppy, however by chance she met a mongrel rescue puppy( possibly with some collie & golden retriever in her background)that literally stole her heart & she adopted the pup. In the past years her dog has become an adept obedience & agility dog winning in both fields. She still plans to get a BC puppy in the future that is still her dream & she entitled to do so I won't critise her when she does

If parents are genetically tested and pedigree known, are there any problems with breeding mutts? For the dog's welfare I mean. I completely see where you're coming from but at the same time rigour needs to be applied to the breeding of pets in the same way as it is pedigrees - even if pets are mutts. If all sires and dams were tested and clear of hereditary health problems, then mutts should be healthy too? Or no?

I guess what I'm getting at is that pets are the primary purpose of dogs in this country so the majority of dogs are coming from pet breeders. Good practice should be encouraged without the need for the dog to be in sport or show. Perhaps I haven't looked far enough but the reason I'm getting a pedigree is because the breeder has a nice hygienic set up, her dogs are recommended for their temperament, and I know she's done the necessary work to ensure lines aren't bred unethically. I found it hard to find 'pet' breeders who do all this, but it shouldn't be that way.

I think what I'm trying to say is I'd be happy with a mongrel because I don't show and I don't have sheep, and I think most pet owners feel the same way, but I think there aren't enough avenues to get non pedigree dogs that are ethically bred.

You obviously have missed my point.

Most dogs are pets, however the aim of responsible breeding is to improve the breed not just to churn out pups to sate the want for puppies from Joe Public. A friend of mine searched for 5 years for the right puppy of a very popular & over bred breed!!

Working dogs like Border Collies that can be very high drive, should not be bred solely as pets. Not all BCs will be able to work sheep/cattle etc Most need good training to prevent them self learning unwanted behaviours. If you totally breed out the working ability by breeding from dogs without it, then the dogs cease to be Border Collies & might as well be to be mutts that might resemble the breed physically.

There are BCs/WSDs bred to do obedience that come from lines with multiple dogs with a health condition that there is no test for. Some people who have these dogs choose to ignore this & continue to linebreed to the dogs because they make good"obedience dogs" Sorry no wins in the obedience ring is worth that risk

I couldn't agree more on your last point - the first priority should be the dog's health and happiness. It's not worth risking that to win a competition.

On the rest of your post, I guess perhaps I'm talking about health and ethics and you're talking about integrity and they're both good points. I agree the border collie breed should be preserved. And it isn't the responsibility of any particular breeder to produce pets if that's not what they want.

However, I think it would be for the welfare of dogkind for ethical breeders who want to breed pets to have access to foundation dogs that are known to be in good health, have excellent temperaments etc (and as far as I can tell its more difficult to find that dogs with the relevant tests in the pet market) so that we as a society can build an ethical pet market. All encouragement should be there for good breeders to have access to health tested foundation dogs so they can go on to ethically breed healthy pets.

Pedigrees can be preserved by the isds and the farmers /trialists who keep isds dogs.

Oh, I'm also not sure I agree with the idea that a working stock collie cannot be a happy pet. I grew up in a hill sheep farming area so a working stock collie was probably the most popular family dog around due to their availability. Perhaps because people already knew enough about collies to understand the particular needs of the breed, I never really heard any of this stuff about it being a challenge when I lived up there. It was understood a dog is a commitment and you provide it with the necessary simulation. The dogs were largely well behaved and happy. I don't think they need to specifically herd so long as they are mentally and physically stimulated in other ways.

So it's OK for Joe Blogs to mate his bitch up to any old dog of the same breed to produce "pets" for the market?

"Pet" puppy breeders don't bother with health testing or pedigrees as Joe Public only wants a pet. Even had such breeders say to me" only registered dogs have health issues" especially after the infamous PDE program that showed 2 dogs affected by life limiting conditions that were bred solely for the pet market & many many generations from KC dogs as examples of bad KC registered dogs!

Having done many years of genetic research into canine health conditions & discovering that finding a bred for the pet market dog from health tested parents is harder than finding hen's teeth in GB

You do not understand that breeding pure pet dogs is done solely for money, the breeders have no interest is starting out with a well bred bitch nor doing testing on her, they simply want a fertile bitch or two to breed as many pups as possible every year.

No, that's quite the opposite of what I'm saying. In order to prevent the continuation of health conditions in dogs they should not be bred with "any old dog".

And I don't think every single breeder who does not show is therefore a callous puppy machine. The bad breeders you speak of who do not have the animal's welfare in mind ought to be firstly far more heavily regulated (as I said I think every breeder should be registered and frequently inspected, it should not be optional), and secondly should be put out of business by a concerted push to ensure pet owners are aware of the ethics and to ensure there are ethically bred pet dogs. I would also add that there are some breeds I would like to see become illegal due to the health conditions they suffer.

Even if dog breeders don't want to breed pets themselves, they surely have a moral interest in the general welfare of dogs - most of which are in pet homes. It doesn't seem right to me to say that all pet breeders are lacking in compassion. There is huge demand for pet dogs. If ethical breeders are not providing then unethical ones fill the gap.

Again, I don't mean that all breeders should breed pets, I mean that if an ethical breeder wants to breed pets they should be encouraged to do so.

Hm ethical breeder of pet quality dogs? Have yet to meet one in GB.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree. Breeding simply to sate public demand for a pet(especially of a working breed) because responsible breeders will not sell their dogs to Joe Public who wants a pup to be immediately available is not right IMHO. A friend who is involved with BC rescue has told me they are now being inundated by mainly pet BC puppies whose breeders don't give a toss now the puppies have been sold. She is fostering a nine week old puppy from a litter bred for sale as pets, who after a week in totally the wrong home, is already screwed up mentally & he is not sadly an isolated case. No health tests of course & they have already found out he is deaf in both ears!! So much for ethical breeders of bred for pets litters health testing

It is all about why people wish to breed usually a show, performance  or working breeder will breed with a purpose in mind other than the commercial side of breeding. Those that breed for the pet market are more often breeding to make money and as it is an expensive pastime when done well. pet breeders buy into the "only want a pet mentality" previously meaning pets have less value ( totally wrong in my opinion)and to make money have to up productivity and watch costs to put it in  purely commercial terms.  This is not how things should be when we are talking about our pets

Thanks satin collie, that does make sense, I hadn't thought about it that way. But how depressing!!

I think I'm getting where you're coming from now - yes I would not want a dog to be sold to a person who can't wait for one. That doesn't sound like a good owner. I guess there's a problem here where there's demand from people who just want a dog immediately without knowledge of dogs and only unethical breeders will sell to them, so it's difficult to get them out of business.

Very sad. I think the law needs to be tightened up here.

Only a few dogs in a litter are likely to meet the highest standard for the sport/work or excellence of type to the breed standard to show/work.

Also as breeders can't keep all their best pups, we hope the most promising will go on to make their mark, to help preserve the breeds characteristics, in other dedicated hands.

The majority of the remaining pups, including the most promising often go to purely companion homes. They have the enjoyment and reassurance that they are getting a very typical pup bred to the exacting standards.

Sadly those who simply want to breed pets, usually do not have sufficient knowledge to breed well. They also do not see wherebtheir dogs deviate from ideal and how to go about improving in the pups.

The pups they produce, even if parents have nice natures (and often they don't as they don't know enough of the ancestors), get further and further from what the breed should be.

As for breeding mutts, issue from a breeder who only owns bitches, ask yourself if I have a top class girl, then why would I waste her limited breeding potential of 2 or 3 litters ( few would find time to fit in the 4 max the KC will register or wish to).

We need more really good breeders, but these are hard to attract, as doing it well and responsibly is more commitment, time and money than the majority of owners can dedicate (small wondwr many breeders are past retirement age, or have partners on goid wage).

My own breed is down to little more than 6 - 10 litters a year, a third of when I started at the start of the 1990's.

Many also don't want to breed because of increased red tape.

Licencing every breeder will drive away the best, who breed sparingly within their homes.

Most large scale puppy farmers were/are licensed.

Once your licenced, you are a business, you may need change of use. My house deeds for example prohit running a business.

Most litters are reared in adhoc facilities at home, licences have all sorts of stipulations that make adherence impossible in a domestic setting.

I am happy that licencing is for 3 plus litters, or if running a business.

Sadly I also know people whose councils are choosing to misinterpret the law to consider the sale of even one puppy commercial, and as a result won't breed again.

Very interesting, thank you, that explains a lot!