What are endorsements????  Maybe there are other members of this forum who do not live in Britain who would also like to know....

When registering puppies the breeder can choose to have one or both of two (there used to be four) endorsements put on the registration; 'progeny not eligible for registration' and 'Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree'. These mean that, unless the breeder lifts these at a later date, the dog can't be used for breeding (or if it is, the offspring can't be registered) - very useful because nobody has any idea what the eventual hip score will be, and so on; and that it can't be exhibited or bred from overseas. It's a form of protection for the pups, the best we can do to prevent exploitation.

These endorsements can be lifted by the breeder at any time, and at no charge, by writing to the Kennel Club. Most good breeders endorse all their puppies automatically, even before they know which one/s they want to keep.

The other two endorsements were "Not eligible for entry at Shows, Field trials or Working trials held under Kennel Club Regulations" (for an obviously pet-quality puppy) and "Name Unchangeable".

I think the not for export endorsement isn't so much about not being shown overseas, but rather the dog can't be registered with the relevant Kennel Club where it moves to and so any puppies from that dog, can't be registered in the KC of that country.  Unfortunately that should be enough, like the 'progeny not eligible for registration' (in the UK) to ensure the animal isn't used for breeding.    But of course we all know it doesn't because the animal can, and often is, still be bred from.    And it seems, unregistered puppies sold at similar prices (here in the UK) to those that are KC Regd.   The not for export endorsement should also mean the puppy/adult can't be sold abroad for breeding purposes.  Again it won't stop anybody taking the puppy/dog abroad when it's owners emigrate and the dog lives as a pet.

Of course, endorsements (both) should always be put on immature stock when sold, if only to show intent, but the only way to prevent any dog from being bred when it shouldn't be, is to neuter ..... but who wants to have to castrate/spay a puppy at the age most are sold (ie 8 - 10 weeks).

>Again it won't stop anybody taking the puppy/dog abroad when it's owners emigrate and the dog lives as a pet.

It's surprising how many people, including breeders, think it means that a dog can never have a pet passport and be taken abroad, either on holiday or to live permanently. It's purely to prevent it being shown and bred from (and offspring registered) overseas.

Thanks for enlightening me!  I wish we had endorsements here.  Any stipulations we breeders make must be put in the contract of sale.  I DO make stipulations about breeding, but no breeder I have ever bought from has done so.  I guess it had been made clear from the get-go that I WAS hoping to breed with them, and they were OK with that.

I'm not going to be buying any new dogs (obviously), but let's say I DID want to buy a dog from a very good breeder in the UK, and indeed, with the hopes of showing and breeding.  Would that be out of the question, or is it simply a matter of having no endorsements on the pedigree?  I've never bought a dog in the UK (and never will!).  But I HAVE bought a few dogs in the past from very good breeders in Holland, Denmark, France, Spain and Germany.  All of them had FCI pedigrees, which were then registered with the Swiss chapter of the FCI.

As I have said, I am stopping breeding.  Nimue is being kastrated this morning, poor dear.  I have a total of six cotons (4 females and 2 males), and we are all going to get old together.

As breeders in the UK, we can't put the Progeny not eligible for registration endorsement when we give an Export Pedigree

> As breeders in the UK, we can't put the Progeny not eligible for registration endorsement when we give an Export Pedigree

True.   The Progeny not eligible for registration is one endorsement, the other being the not for export endorsement.  And that endorsement would deny the owner from being able to apply for an Export Pedigee (which would enable them to register the dog with the new KC).   If there's a 'not for export' endorsement, the UK KC won't (hopefully!!) issue an Export Pedigree for that dog.   But again the only way to be totally certain any dog won't be bred from (or used at stud) is to neuter before selling!!!

My friend living in Switzerland has told me of all the restrictions the various Breed Clubs put on potential breeding stock out there - like having a Committee of piers (fellow breeders) who evaluate new dogs, giving them a pass or fail (in their opinion!) so any sub -standard dog would be ruled out of a breeding programme.   How that transfers into the registration of any puppies he/she does produce, I'm not sure.    And I'm not sure whether that suggests said fellow breeders are always being honest in their views of individual dogs.   I'd have thought show results would have more relevance than having to rely on the decision of a Committee    It's hard enough finding an honest judge these days - one who looks at the right end of the lead eh.

Hi MamaBas
It doesn't work quite like that.  It used to be that show results (two "Very Good" or "Excellent" evaluations, from two different judges) were enough to qualify a dog for breeding.  But breed clubs in Switzerland now hold their OWN qualification event.  This is tougher than show results alone.  An international judge is acquired for the club event (called the "Ankoerung" in German, "Séléction" in French), not a group of fellow breeders.  The judge puts the dog and it's owner through the usual assessments, but in addition, there is a character test and evaluation.  For this, sometimes fellow breeders (also present and waiting their turn with their own dogs) are asked to form a circle, for instance, and close in on the dog to check it's ability to deal with such a situation.  Our breed club always has the same judge nowadays, and she requires the whole event to be held in a train station.  Now, since my dogs have not grown up in a train station, nor will they raise their puppies in one, I find this, well, pretty ridiculous.  Maybe aggravating would be the better word, because you only have to think of paying a fortune for a puppy you have bought from a top breeder in a foreign country, paid the plane fare and hotel to get there and back, waited a year until the qualification for breeding while training carefully, and then have the whole thing messed up because a train came roaring into the station.

Anyhow, it's not a committee which decides on whether to qualify a dog for breeding or not, it is the judge, the same judge you might very well meet next time in the show ring.  But the event is club-sponsored.  That is required of all clubs.  There must be two "Ankoerungen" per year.

I just wanted to add that endorsements can be placed bybthe owner of a dog in their physical possession at the time.

So a dog or bitch could have been bred from, and later have endorsements put on/put back on, before transfer to a new home.

It isn't just the breeder of a litter, but most often is.

> it's not a committee which decides on whether to qualify a dog for breeding or not,

I must have misunderstand my friend, or the way this happens has been changed (for the better imo).   It just struck me that if, as can happen within breeds, somebody, or more, people on a committee were at odds with a fellow breeder and what they were breeding, that would all too often influence how they saw a dog coming forward for assessment.   And, as happens, money could even change hands!!   After all even some judges go by what's on the 'wrong end of the lead' when judging

Incredible story about the assessment taking place in a train station!!  Much as it would rule out those with weak temperaments (depending on breed!).

Interesting tho.

Hi All

What would be your (as a breeder) general requirements to lift your endorsement?

I'm looking to buy a pup and hoping (in the future) to take a litter from her, but italmost feels like a "bad" thing to ask, as though breeders would be put off by this? Maybe it's just my perception and I'm miles off, but just wondering if it's taken as a negative to ask for endorsements to be lifted.

It's been hard to gather information locally with covid restrictions and the breed club here is not very accessible online.

Shoobi ~This will vary from breed to breed regarding health tests required...so no single one answer to your question.

Thanks

A breeder will want to develop a relationship of Trust with you and see that you have a commitment to the breed and will do things properly/ethically when they entrust you with the continuation/expansion of the work they have put in developing their breeding program.

This will include being assured that any litters will be bred in suitable conditions and that you will take the utmost care in homing them in suitable homes. Also that you will take long term responsibility.

What you go on to do will reflect on their reputation, so breeders are understandably cautious.

It goes without saying that you would do the appropriate health testing, and only breed if the results are good, and the pup is a good typical example ( and in numerically large breeds, a really good example), is fit and healthy with impeccable temperament.

Hi,
May I just ask what happens when a breeder sells a puppy and does not inform the new owners that there was endorsements.
This breeder actually had not got the puppies paperwork, to hand to people on day of purchase, and new ownes knew nothing about the endorsements until the paperwork arrived in the post.
She also signed the new owners names on the back of the certificates, where the declaration is, stating that new owners were made aware of any endorsements.

Jodie, that is fraud - for the breeder to sign as someone else. Are you in the UK? If so, I would contact Trevor Cooper of Dog Law and get advice there and also contact the KC immediately - much better to do it now than to wait until you want endorsements lifted.

Endorsements have to be signed for - the new owner has to sign a contract to say that they know and are aware of the endorsements at the time of purchase. If this isn't done, then the KC can/will/should lift them.

In addition, as I said, it is fraud for someone to sign as anyone else...

If the actual registration was before pick up, and the new owners signed a statement that told of endorsements and they and breeder have a copy, then the Endorsements will stand.

If registration with endorsements occured after pups left, and no signature to show they had been told, then they were improperly placed and can be removed.

I am a little confused, as signature on back of registrations is simply for transfer of ownership?

The breeder signs, and new owner signs.

> She also signed the new owners names on the back of the certificates, where the declaration is, stating that new owners were made aware of any endorsements.

That's fraud!!!   The KC needs to be aware and involved!!

Hi I am in Ireland, and puppiies are IKC Registered, on the back of the paper there is a part that says has the new owner been made aware of any endorsements that have been applied, and this person has signed the new owners name as if they agreed to it.

Ah I see.

Definitely Fraud, and should be possible to prove signatures are false.

Do you know what the IKC rules on placement of endorsements is?

New owners have to be made aware of any endorsements

Have you the wording, of timing etc, as I quoted the UK rules.

Wow just seen that IKC now have a MYIKC looks a lot like MYKC did, though you have to register to use it.

You should contact the IKC and tell them.
These endorsements have only started this year.
You should have been informed and signed a contract before bringing puppy home saying it was endorsed.
Both EKC and IKC any endorsements placed must be done properly.