> You cannot hide hip/elbow/Dna Test Results undertaken at any Laboratory from the Kennel Club if the dog in question has Official Pedigree Registratiin Papers.

Some labs will send them the results some don't. The kc list all the labs they accept results from for each breed and weather the owner needs to send the results in or if it's automatic.
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/dna-testing-simple-inherited-disorders/worldwide-dna-tests/

I think speaking with their appropriate department you will find they advise their chosen Laboraties and do claim they everything is recorded which these Laboritories are under obligation to do.

Can’t argue with that really can you! I read this on the site literally other day so confirm it is true!

> If you go onto the list of current litters, pretty much all of them flag up as being 'health tested' which, to the uneducated looks as though it's a green flag to say the hard work has been done by CD staff, so anyone wanting to buy a puppy need not look further.

I agree hugely with this. CD may verify that the results exist and are correct but there is zero indication as to whether the result is acceptable or not.

Joe Bloggs will most likely look at a very high hip score for example and have zero idea what it means. They may even assume that high is good.

> I agree hugely with this. CD may verify that the results exist and are correct but there is zero indication as to whether the result is acceptable or not.

Indeed, had a brief look earlier today at Labrador litters, two with elbow grades of 1 being bred on from, and one with no elbow grading; numerous without current, clear BVA eye certs (no doubt blamed on covid-19), and a range of DNA testing but very few litters with the 5 main DNA tests done and clear on at least one parent.

The KC advice was initially that it was ok to breed on from either a 0 or 1 grade, however, that advice changed in 2013, so 7 years ago, as, not only was it found that breeding on from a 1 did increase the risk of producing progeny with ED, but as ED is progressive, those with a 1 grade would most likely progress to 2 or even 3 with age.

"Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: “In accordance with the revised British Veterinary Association’s procedure notes, the Kennel Club would recommend that breeders only use dogs in their breeding with an overall grade of zero.

“This will help to minimise the risk of elbow dysplasia and fall in line with the Kennel Club’s dedication to improving the health of pedigree dogs across the board. We are sure the new guidelines will be welcomed by all the conscientious pedigree dog breeders who work to maintain the best level of breed health for their breeds.”

Note how it states 'welcomed by all the conscientious pedigree dog breeders' - obviously not all unfortunately.

> Note how it states 'welcomed by all the conscientious pedigree dog breeders' - obviously not all unfortunately.

Unfortunately I don’t think the majority of dog breeders fall into the category of conscientious, pedigree or not.

> Unfortunately I don’t think the majority of dog breeders fall into the category of conscientious, pedigree or not.

Unfortunately very true.  As has been said many times on this forum and others.  A lot of breeders seem ignorant of things like health tests; but in our modern day there is no excuse for ignorance, there is so much information at our finger tips, it's downright irresponsible to breed on without educating yourself as to the health tests and how they work.

I do think that CD should have mandatory health testing even if its the basics, or look to breed clubs and see what they ask for and run with that?
It does mean that anyone listed in the breeder section has to have proof their dogs are or are removed? I haven't a litter this year but I am listed as a breeder on the site and have had many enquiries this way.

I really don't understand why as a private site this can't be done. The ABS requirements are ridiculous in my breed, asking for eye testing yearly when its only a 1 off test needed and yet neglecting a fatal condition which is a simple DNA test which is not even on recommended. Yes I do everything and more but its a shocking shame all round. Apparently the breed council requested eyes yearly, yet when you ask them they have zero knowledge of this and have not requested this to the KC and weren't even aware of this recent change by the ABS until I posted about it.

As breeders in the real world we don't have the insight into all these thsse quotes, statements and grey area recommendations that you all have the time/resources to look into.  As we all have our own interpretation of available information and or advice from DEFRA, KC or ABS Inspectors who can desipher any of it unless you are a philidelphia lawyer? In relation to BVA Hip & Elbow scoring, my understanding is that the wording .minimise the risk' means it is relevant but not a guaranteed - something I first posted, in other words a ' risk percentage'.  Re (no doubt blamed on COVID 19)  for expired  certificates.  I can verify that many of my dogs eye certificates are now a couple of weeks overdue and the COVID situation is a genuine reason as I cannot get an appointment for them all at one time as normal as the staff to accomodate my visit is not available until further notice.  A 3 month  concession has been granted by licensing bodies - thank goodness so I cannot agree with your 'observation' that COVID is an excuse for regular annual testers to let them lapse,

> but in our modern day there is no excuse for ignorance, there is so much information at our finger tips

This is so true. It takes two seconds to google 'KC health test recommendations for (insert breed here)' and you get everything you need to know as a general rule. There may be more you can do in certain breeds but it's an easy starting point that you can build upon. Not doing it is just pure laziness, irresponsibility and dare I say it, greed.

> This is so true. It takes two seconds to google 'KC health test recommendations for (insert breed here)' and you get everything you need to know as a general rule. There may be more you can do in certain breeds but it's an easy starting point

and I would add National breed club, which you can find links to from Kennel club site.  Most will have a section on health, which will point out additinal testing expected and the code of ethics breeders are to abide by.

Yes indeed Brainless. No excuse really. So so easy.

> Yes indeed Brainless. No excuse really. So so easy.

Takes two seconds to look up when the KC changed advice re elbows.  I think what people don't understand is that there's always a trail, even when people try to alter information so they think it won't highlight poor practices, it will always come out in the wash.  They can edit websites and pages as much as they like, but unfortunately in this day and age, once you've put the information out there, unless you are very tech savvy, then it stays there.

I can confirm, I just googled “KC health test recommendations papillon” and while the first hit didn’t give complete information, it only took a couple more clicks to get the rest of it. I believe it’s also on the CD page for each breed as well.

Alternatively a call or email to a breed club would be an easy way to find out.

No excuse So So Easy:  It seems you all expect relatively new breeders to have the knowledge to even consider the extensive health testing above & beyond KC Guidelines in the first instance yet KC are their first port of call for advice/recommendations. The majority of people who wish to have a litter of Puppies from their girl have no idea of testing however as your interest in breeding increases and you start to look more deeply into your responsibilities, you are still guided by KC, ABS & your long standing local Vet who I may add is likely a general practioners of animal medicine as human GPs are general practionals of human health. None claiming to be 'Consultants'. and yet  no one I have met in my members grps even know of all this controversy raised.  Only in my opinion, re assessment of your responses to anyone not part of your elite group should have their differences of debate and not be subjected to a barrage of disagreable views and discreditation of leading bodies involved in this debate.

This is what I will never understand about today's breeders. It's buy a bitch, let's have puppies. To me, and to many people I know, it was a very long process.

My first ever dog was a rescue, but a pedigree from a good breeder. I was 15. I found it fascinating to be able to research the names in the pedigree, and I did so by joining the breed club and buying all breed books I could get hold of, including from abroad. Long, long before the internet. I traced my dog's pedigree back around 100 years. I read up on everything about the breed, including health tests, even though my dog was only ever a pet. When he died I was still only 18, but because I'd spent 3 years of learning about the breed not only did I know which breeders to approach for a puppy as I knew which lines I liked and which breeders were well thought of, but I also knew what health tests the parents should have had carried out. I had my dog hip scored and eye tested even though he was never going to be used for breeding, because I wanted to know that he was healthy.

When I was 22 I moved here - i.e. abroad to me. From my pedigree research I knew which UK breeder was behind a lot of the dogs in the pedigrees I liked, and so I contacted her (letter in the post) before I'd moved, to enquire about buying a puppy. Ended up with a puppy from a top breeder, seem to remember I paid £145 for him! I started showing a bit.

I had the dream of breeding a litter of pups for years before I went ahead. I was mainly showing cats, dog shows was just a minor part of my life. But I had long since decided that I would not breed a litter before any bitch that I owned actually did some winning at shows, and obviously tested clear/good for their breed specific health tests. I first had Golden Retrievers and then added Cavaliers. Two extremely popular breeds and I never did well enough at shows to even think about breeding from them. (I no longer have either breed.)

I had owned dogs for years and always taken a huge interest in pedigrees, the history of the breeds, was always a member of breed clubs even if my dog was just a pet. As soon as I came to the UK I started reading the weekly dog papers and above all the breed notes. The breed notes alone taught me a lot. It took 24 years of owning dogs before I planned my first litter. During that time I had attended obedience classes, shows, trained as a dog groomer and worked as a vet nurse and kennel maid and taken the course to learn to microchip. I had a health tested bitch that I was showing (different breed now) who later became a Champion and I took the advice of her breeder on everything -which stud dog to use (for the first 3 litters I bred at least, i.e. from the next generation as well) plus of course all practicalities. I still ask her advice 20 years later.

I know this is long and may sound like "Look how good I am" (which is a thought that would never occur to me, I never feel I've done enough) but if a 15 year old, years before the internet, could not only research pedigrees, breeders both home and abroad and health tests, then WHY can people today not do it when the information is so readily available?

Maybe because I came into dogs having been involved in a different species fancy, that I automatically started my research with the governing body, and then the breed club for my first breed, and subsequently for my current breed.

This was 1988, so no computer or internet.

Research was books from the Library, then speaking with breed club secretary and breeders and ownars.

Even then I knew that pups parents should be Hip scored, and I had my bitch Hip scored in 1990.

Fast forward to 1992 when I bought my foundation bitch of a different breed, from scored sire, but unscored dam. The breed club had only just advised scoring.

I duly had my bitch scored when old enough, and now have 8 generations of UK scoring, and even more Scandinavian, behind my current dogs, making results more predictable, and gradually improving from a respectable starting point.

It helps that a truly representative sample of the breed population is health tested in UK, aproximatley 20% of all registered, as we are a numerically small breed, and all breeders required by the breed clubs to test.

Must be very hard in popular breeds where the peer pressure is lacking to encourage compliance with best practice, and few are involved enough with their breed, or belong to breed clubs so that they can keep abreast of breed knowledge.

Before I bred my first litter I purchased 10 years worth of club publications, then the 10 previous.  I now have a complete set.

Read all the articles, studied photos of decades of dogs, and many in my pedigree.

Most of all I sucked up knowledge from my breeder and the sires owner who had been in the breed from 1960's and 1950's respectively.

These ladies were my mentors until their deaths, as were others experienced in the breed.

When one has no experience, one leans on and learns from those who have it. That way avoiding many potential pitfalls and mistakes.

Goldmali, that right there is the reason why you were at the top of my first shortlist when I was looking for a Papillon breeder. Bad timing on my part as you’d just decided to stop breeding (paps at least), but I very much appreciate all the help and advice you gave me.

I wish I’d been as conscientious as you with my first dog, my just-a-pet Labrador, but I was stuck in the attitude that show breeders were bad and it was all prancing about and posing - why would there be anything wrong with my non-KC non-fancy dog when only inbred show dogs had problems?

I knew a family with a lab bitch, and they knew someone with a dog, and that’s all we needed, right?

20-year-old me was an idiot.

Silver leaf i was similar to u  .my dogs have only ever been pets with the exception of brooke who was also bought with the desire to show . Unfortunately for a number of reasons that didn't work out.
My first dog a gsd came from a friend who looking back probably just found someone they new with a dog and then had a litter. I have no idea if any health tests were done or indeed didn't know that they should have been . I was lucky that dog had no problems that showed .
I have done better since then having learned. However looking back may still have not researched breeders as throughly as I would now having learned so much from cd and other places .
As for breeding I think the majority of the gp still think all u need is a bitch and a dog and maybe a vet check and thats it
. Yes the info is out there but if the man in the pub doesn't know he needs it then he won't know what to look for . Often seeing breeding as a money making exercise with some cute pups at the end
Those with serious intent and interest will research  and learn as they go.

. I think from discussions I've had many think its no different to 2 humans trying for a baby !!!

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/complex-inherited-disorders/bvakc-health-schemes/bvakc-elbow-dysplasia-scheme

Breeding Advice

Where EBVs are available for your breed

EBVs provide a more accurate measurement of genetic risk than using a dog's elbow score alone. It is therefore recommended that EBV breeding advice is used where possible.

Ideally breeders should use dogs that that have an EBV which is lower than average (i.e., a minus number), and preferably with a confidence rating of at least 60%. Dogs with an EBV with a confidence less than 60% can still be used, but the higher the confidence, the more accurate the EBV will be.

The lower the EBV, the better, but breeders do not need to search out the dogs with the lowest risk EBV.  Selecting animals with a lower risk EBV than average will still lower the risk of elbow dysplasia in the breed as a whole.

It is recommended that breeders make well balanced breeding decisions. At birth, each puppy will have an EBV that is the average of its parents. Therefore, dogs with an EBV which is higher than average can still be bred from, providing that it is mated to a dog with an EBV which is well below average (assuming that the confidence for both dogs is high).

Previously, the best advice was to ideally use dogs with an elbow score of zero, which meant that many dogs could have been excluded from a breeding plan if their scores were a significant consideration. Excluding dogs from a breeding plan can have an impact on genetic diversity.  By using EBVs, it is reasonable to use a dog with less than ideal individual BVA/KC scores, as long as the EBV indicates low genetic risk with good confidence. In such cases the elbow condition of the offspring should be carefully monitored and preferably they should be elbow scored themselves.

Where EBVs are not available for your breed

Ideally dogs with grade zero elbows should be chosen for breeding and at least dogs with a score of 2 or 3 should not be used for breeding.

It is also recommended that elbow scores of a dog’s family members should also be considered. This could be done by using the Kennel Club’s Health Test Results Finder to look at parents, grandparents and siblings.

> No excuse So So Easy:  It seems you all expect relatively new breeders to have the knowledge to even consider the extensive health testing above & beyond KC Guidelines in the first instance yet KC are their first port of call for advice/recommendations.

I would expect  anyone considering breeding to do the kc advise tests and follow all the tests listed on there (mandatory, recommended and advised) as a minimum. But sadly so many don't and just go ahead and breed their girl without first learning as much as possible with the idea that 'everyone starts somewhere' and they plan to learn as they go,  or they have and think 'its only kc show dogs who need testing' so don't do any health testing. I'm on a couple of dog breeding groups on Facebook where people can ask for advice and the amount of times I have seen someone who hasn't even done ANY research post stuff like: 'I've just bred my two dogs, how long will she be pregnant for?' 'my girl is pregnant how will I know when she is in Labour?' 'My girls on her period when can I mate her?'.

Side note - if there are breeds who have extra health tests recommended by breed clubs that are not on the kc list of breed recommended testing why are they not on there? When the new DNA test came out for our breed it quickly went up there and the club had the decision on if it was to be mandatory or recommended for ABS. I've only known breeds who's club and kc list of tests match.

> Yes the info is out there but if the man in the pub doesn't know he needs it then he won't know what to look for .

This is whre I get very cross with Vets.  They are quick to critiscise breeders, but do little to inform them how to bred responsibly, or to avoid an unwanted litter.

I know they are a business, adn they need to keep clients sweet.

Mainly they try and get everything neutered ASAP, assuming every owner is and idiot/iresponsible (sadly in many cases they are right).

One large practive in Bristol runs various clinics, one of which was an antenatal one for pets!!!

I contacted them about this, as no where in the Vets surgery or their website was there any information on Health schemes, Alizin for missalliance, so that owners could do so responsibly.

This has been the case in every vets I have been too, most of the staff knew nothing about Health schemes,a dn the Vets themselves knew little more than abotu Hip scoring.

They advertise all manner of things on Posters, and surely as being under the BVA they should have big poster advertising Health schemes for Dogs, and I assume other animals too.

We have had tragic tales here where a mismated bitch was advised to have a litter and died, leaving owners to hand rear.  No advise re alternatives (Alizin up to 42 days, Gravid Spay).

Press release from the KC from November 2013:

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-releases/2013/november/new-breeding-guidelines-for-dogs-that-have-been-elbow-graded/

From the BVA information:

"Advice on breeding
The overall grade is used internationally as the basis for breeding advice. Ideally dogs with 'normal' (grade 0) elbows should be chosen and certainly dogs with 2 or 3 arthrosis should not be used for breeding.  As ED is a prevalent disease, especially in the breeds listed on page 3, such advice will only be effective if it is continued over a number of generations. The most difficult part of accepting such advice for many breeders is that some dogs have never been lame and exercise freely, but nevertheless may have high grades. This is the subclinical population with the ability to pass on the problem in the breed. For long-term control of the disease these dogs ought not to be bred from."

Also worth noting the BVA Definitions:

0 = Radiographically normal
1 = Mild osteoarthritis (OA)
2 = Moderate or a primary lesion with no OA
3 = Severe OA or a primary lesion with OA

All easily accessible information, and lots more information on both websites about all the health schemes.

And this is the list of common breeds at risk of ED:

Common breeds at risk of Elbow Dysplasia
Elbow dysplasia affects a range of breeds including crossbreeds.

Basset Hound
Bernese Mountain Dog
Dogue de Bordeaux
German Shepherd Dog
Great Dane
Irish Water Spaniel
Newfoundland
Goldendoodles
Labradoodles
Labrador Retriever
Rottweiler

Just a very brief answer to Chaumsong earlier

"I'm not sure CD can do anything about this, it's for a puppy buyer to check results. They are after all health tested, even if the results aren't great. If CD were to start to police results what criteria do they use, on several threads we've not been able to agree ourselves what is acceptable."

We do police each and every result and have done so for years.

So in 2013 the advice for elbows was as follows :

"Ideally dogs with 'normal' (grade 0) elbows should be chosen and certainly dogs with 2 or 3 arthrosis should not be used for breeding."

So lets break that sentence down across the 4 possible elbow scores.

Grade 0 - Ok
Grade 1 - No mention or recommendation
Grade 2 - Not Ok
Grade 3 - Not Ok

And to use your earlier suggestion of "set a green - acceptable, amber - border line, red - failed". I would therefore interpret the Kennel Club recommendation as follows :

Grade 0 - Green
Grade 1 - Amber
Grade 2 or 3 - Red

Then in 2016 there was the following news item :

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/news/2016/august/ebvs-a-resource-for-better-breeding/

"EBVs are a more accurate way of measuring a dog’s genetic risk than by using the scores from the BVA/ KC schemes alone."

Now lets step forward to 2020 and use the information which is currently accessible on the KC site. I have already provided the link earlier in this thread but will do so again in the interests of education as it gives the most upto date information and advice:

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/complex-inherited-disorders/bvakc-health-schemes/bvakc-elbow-dysplasia-scheme

"Previously, the best advice was to ideally use dogs with an elbow score of zero, which meant that many dogs could have been excluded from a breeding plan if their scores were a significant consideration. Excluding dogs from a breeding plan can have an impact on genetic diversity.  By using EBVs, it is reasonable to use a dog with less than ideal individual BVA/KC scores, as long as the EBV indicates low genetic risk with good confidence."

That sentence to me further backs up that dogs with an elbow score of 1 should not be excluded from breeding plans (because what else can it mean).

However is the breeding world ready to embrace EBVs fully yet ?
Personally I don't think so which is unfortunate, however I am sure they will do one day.

Incidentally the old advice from 2013 is still given for breeds where there are no EBVs available.

So have the KC issued more recent official guidance following their joint advice with the BVA to only breed on from a 0 grade and they are now advising that you should be breeding on from a 1 grade?  And yes, I've read the link, and they are still saying you should 'ideally breed from a 0' - no mention of breeding on from a 1 grade. 

There are numerous stud dogs with a 0 grade to choose from to breed on from, there is no need at all to breed on from a 1, and any good breeder would acknowledge that simple fact, at least with Labrador retrievers, they're not exactly scarce. 

I have yet to have my youngest bitch tested, if she comes back with a 1 elbow grade I won't be breeding on from her, it's as simple as that.  She's not unique, as much as I love her, and think the world of her, there are no unique pedigrees in Labradors, they're all from similar backgrounds so there are always other lines out there with good (and by that I mean 0)  elbow grades to carry on from.  To think that 'your dog' is so unique in such a numerous breed that you should be allowed to breed on from a dog that has had confirmation that they are suffering with mild osteoarthritis (or worse, there are plenty who breed on from a 2 grade) in their elbows is pretty poor going in my books.  Are you suggesting that people should lower their standards to less than ideal, and that's what Champdogs should be promoting? 

Without naming names, one of the dogs recently discussed not only had an elbow grade of 1, but had an EBV of 32, and was mated to bitches with EBVs of 10, 1, 8, 10 and -18 - so only one that 'might' improve things.  The other had incredibly poor hips and an EBV of 44 for hips, 21 for elbows, and was mated to bitches with EBVs for hips and elbows consecutively of 15/10, 23/9, 1/9, 30/4 and 17/3.  So there was really no back up from the EBV evidence in those instances. 

So no, I don't agree with the version of Green, Amber and Red, to me, for Labradors, the only Green should be a 0 elbow grade, an Amber would be 0 elbow grades but combined with poor EBVs and Red for anything other than a 0 grade.  But that's just me.

Goldmali, that right there is the reason why you were at the top of my first shortlist when I was looking for a Papillon breeder. Bad timing on my part as you’d just decided to stop breeding (paps at least), but I very much appreciate all the help and advice you gave me.

Thank you Silverleaf79, it means a lot. Due to being very picky with health and temperament I currently don't have a Papillon bitch suitable to breed from and that's the main reason but there's lots of others as well. My other breed we decided to have one final litter of.

Personally I find the EBVs about as much use as the KC Combi breed DNA tests - only relevant if you have a very popular breed! Neither of my breeds are included.

The BVA however are the ones that changed the advice to only breed from 0 elbows. CHS recommends only breeding from dogs that have an elbow grade of 0. https://www.bva.co.uk/canine-health-schemes/elbow-scheme/

"Personally I find the EBVs about as much use as the KC Combi breed DNA tests - only relevant if you have a very popular breed! Neither of my breeds are included."

And I think that is one of the reasons why it will take a long time for EBVs to be universally accepted.

"The BVA however are the ones that changed the advice to only breed from 0 elbows. CHS recommends only breeding from dogs that have an elbow grade of 0."

Yes I was aware of that, so there we have a KC/BVA scheme where the two sponsors give different advice !

We also have breeds where a mandatory test for a KCABS breeder is only recommended by the respective breed club, plus lots of examples of the reverse where the breed club requirements are more stringent than those of the KCABS.

We have countless examples of breeds where for a KCABS the visual BVA eye examination is mandatory whereas a DNA test is for an eye condition only recommended.
That again is complete nonsense to me. Before there were all these DNA tests perhaps there was a place for the visual eye examination but not now. It is no better than a nice to have extra in my opinion because I suspect for the majority of the non-congentital conditions by the time the condition has manifested itself the dog has probably already been bred from.

It pretty obvious that there should be a basic set of required tests for each breed, but in practice defining that level is far from easy and nigh on impossible.

Is there a list of breeds that have EBV's?

I certainly have not heard of one for my breed.

I rather suspect they are not available for any but the most nnmerous breeds,

There are only about 20 breeds at the moment. No chance your breed is one of them Brainless

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/ebv/Default.aspx

Edited - Actually there are 29 breeds

They started to come in around 2014, and are still being rolled out from what I understand, but yes, it's the most numerous breeds that will have the most accurate and up to date information, even so, they are still no guarantee as there are not enough people doing the elbow grading. 

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/the-basics-of-estimated-breeding-values-ebvs

> Before there were all these DNA tests perhaps there was a place for the visual eye examination but not now. It is no better than a nice to have extra in my opinion because I suspect for the majority of the non-congentital conditions by the time the condition has manifested itself the dog has probably already been bred from.

That is the case in my breed, in fact the worst condition know in our breed (Glasucoma) was not even on schedule 1 for eye tests and was removed from scheddule three (under investigation), we were only listed for PRA.  Fortunately we have DNA tests for both now.

Since DNA testing a dog could easily have passed clear for either, but still been affected as both problems did not show up until middle age.

We continue to require eye testing in order to identify any as yet unidentified conditions.

I personally think any condition identified should be reported, not just the ones on schedule 1 for teh breed.

I personally think any condition identified should be reported, not just the ones on schedule 1 for the breed.

When you look closely they don't actually report on much :

https://www.bva.co.uk/media/3265/inherited-eye-disease-breeds-affected-and-type-of-disease-formerly-known-as-schedule-a-08012020.pdf

And this is an interesting document (from 2018 - not sure if there is a more up to date version) which gives the results of the tests :

https://www.bva.co.uk/media/2813/bva-kc-isds-eye-scheme-breed-specific-information-2018.pdf

Parson Russell Terrier

Schedule A

41. Parson Russell Terrier – PLL

Parson Russell Terrier ABS Requirements

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/restrictions.aspx?id=3175

"The following schemes, tests and/ or advice are mandatory requirements for Kennel Club Assured Breeders. All other breeders are strongly advised to use these schemes, tests and/ or advice.

DNA test - PLL
DNA test - LOA
DNA test - SCA
Eye testing"

The BVA eye test is a complete waste of time for the PRT just do the DNA test instead.

I asked this earlier and got no reply. I don't really expect anyone to know but does the KC get a cut of the money from the eye test ?

the one issue I have with EBV's is the calculation from import dogs, the KC don't have record of those lines and results which have been recorded under different schemes like the OFA and therefore don't give a true result.

Many in my breed have import lines in them from mainland Europe, USA and Australia.  So we don't get a true reading for EBV's yet many rely too heavily on them.
They are a tool and not something I would set my breeding too and only allowing in the green


I asked this earlier and got no reply. I don't really expect anyone to know but does the KC get a cut of the money from the eye test ?


The eye test fees go directly to the BVA, the panellist receives a set fee per dog & the rest goes to the BVA. I have never seen any payments to the KC in the BVA annual accounts

I'd like to see the KC  be less perochial and include overseas results.

In numerically small breeds like my own imports figure regularly.

It is one reason I never purchase pedigrees from  KC, and produce my own with health test results included.

An example here: http://barbelka.awardspace.co.uk/wpimages/wp0087608f_0a_06.jpg

I'd also like to see as in many countries for the registration certificate and pedigree combined, it would remove the confusion of 'papers' where owners are confused between KC reg and a pedigree.

Here is an example of a Norwegian registration certificate, much more informative and clearer than ours. https://www.straight-ahead-greyhounds.de/images/cheyenne/atcheyenne.jpg

The link to your own site says there is an error Brainless

> Parson Russell Terrier ABS Requirements<br /><br />[url=undefined]https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/restrictions.aspx?id=3175[/url]<br /><br />"The following schemes, tests and/ or advice are mandatory requirements for Kennel Club Assured Breeders. All other breeders are strongly advised to use these schemes, tests and/ or advice.<br /><br />DNA test - PLL<br />DNA test - LOA<br />DNA test - SCA<br />Eye testing"<br /><br />The BVA eye test is a complete waste of time for the PRT just do the DNA test instead.<br />

This is exactly the same as for the JRTs. I had a look at my eye test certificates the other day and it said it was for non-genetic lens luxation (If I remember correctly). Perhaps that is why it is in conjunction with the PLL DNA test?

> So have the KC issued more recent official guidance following their joint advice with the BVA to only breed on from a 0 grade and they are now advising that you should be breeding on from a 1 grade?  And yes, I've read the link, and they are still saying you should 'ideally breed from a 0' - no mention of breeding on from a 1 grade.

I do think phrasing like this leaves things way too open for people to carry on breeding from dogs with less than acceptable health test results. Unless something says absolutely not people still will, and some will even if they are told not to explicitly.

> there is no need at all to breed on from a 1, and any good breeder would acknowledge that simple fact

Exactly, there is no reason to risk anything in such a numerical breed as Labradors and any breeder who does is simply doing it for their own benefit. It's been said numerous times, it is extremely easy to find out what is needed when it comes to health testing. There are no excuses.

> So no, I don't agree with the version of Green, Amber and Red, to me, for Labradors, the only Green should be a 0 elbow grade, an Amber would be 0 elbow grades but combined with poor EBVs and Red for anything other than a 0 grade.  But that's just me.

100 %

"it is extremely easy to find out what is needed when it comes to health testing. There are no excuses."

But the whole point is that it isn't because everyone has their own ideas and dare I say agendas.

Lets take the French Bulldog, who would like to define "what is needed ?".

Try stepping out of the comfort of your own breed and define firstly which tests need to be done and secondly what the results need to be.

No Mark, the point isn't for me to step away from the comfort of my own breed. If I decided to change breeds I would be doing the research to find out what was needed and what the results need to be. It is for the KC and sites like CD, who both claim to promote responsible breeding, to step up and make their stand on what is acceptable in order to make it harder for the irresponsible breeders to register and advertise their dogs. Everyone will differ in their perspectives on what needs to be tested for, but it really is that simple to find out what you can test for as a general rule. I found out straight away what needed to be done for my breed. I expect someone who responsibly breeds French Bulldogs can tell you what needs to be done in their breed. Known problems are what need to be tested for, not problems that exist in other breeds but not in the one that you are looking to breed from.

This thread was initially started by myself becasue of the lack of clarity on the KC website. Why say certain tests should only be 'considered'. If they are tests for something which is a problem in the breed, why are they not mandatory rather than if you feel like it ones.

Ultimately, the KC need to be more decisive, as do CD when it comes to allowing breeders to advertise, otherwise the tag line of 'Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding' needs to be removed.

"No Mark, the point isn't for me to step away from the comfort of my own breed."

It was a general invitation to anyone to try and define a set of tests (and results) and not aimed directly at you . If you don't feel upto the challenge then don't take it.

"I found out straight away what needed to be done for my breed."

I beg to differ. Earlier in this thread I told you about 5 different tests applicable to your breed to which you were unaware of at that time.

"I expect someone who responsibly breeds French Bulldogs can tell you what needs to be done in their breed"

Ask 10 different breeders and I suspect you will get at least 5 different answers.

"This thread was initially started by myself becasue of the lack of clarity on the KC website."

This is actually no lack of clarity on the KC website, They clearly set out the tests which are mandatory for each breed if you want to be a member of their Assured Breeder Scheme. They then recommend some other tests which are applicable to the breed in question.

"but it really is that simple to find out what you can test for as a general rule"

Prove it - The French Bulldog there is your Challenge - Step up to the plate. Stop telling everyone else what they should and shouldn't do and try it yourself.

Furryfriends:  I couldn't agree more that it takes time to become a responsible beeder and all have further lessons to learn.  Well done for getting it right now!

I meant to post this earlier, my bitch who is spayed, is clear for over 150 genetic conditions, these are all Labrador related, there are more, but these are the 'main' ones:

Cystinuria Type 1-A
Degenerative myelopathy (DM)
Haemophilia B
Malignant Hyperthermia (MH)
Menke's disease
Narcolepsy
Pyruvate Kinase deficiency
Hyperuricosuria (HUU)
Wilson's Disease
Muscular Dystrophy
Alexander Disease
Labrador Obesity Susceptibility
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) Progressive rod-cone degeration (PRCD)
Elliptocytosis
Nasal parakeratosis (HNPK)
Centronuclear Myopathy (CNM)
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (CORD1/rcd4)
Exercise-induced collapse (EIC)
Achromatopsia 2
Myotubular myopathy 1
Oculoskeletal dysplasia 1
Skeletal Dysplasia SD2

I've highlighted the ones that I would use the results to breed clear from, I've never heard of any of the other conditions being a problem within the breed, but those 5 main conditions do crop up on a regular enough basis to warrant testing, and breeding clear from.  Of course if I hadn't got a clear for everything, I'd look at the condition and go from there.  Would I breed from a Labrador Obesity Susceptibility affected status dog?  Probably, and test again the next generation, as I doubt there are many other tested dogs out there showing results for this condition, although now you do tests in bundles more information is becoming available all the time.  Would I breed on from a dog affected for a condition that would be life limiting, no.  And that includes conditions where we do not have DNA tests, but there is evidence to show progeny are more susceptible to problems, such as with hip scoring and elbow grading.

Sleeping_Lion: DN Testing & Breeding an 'over populated breed ie Labrador Retrievers'  You posted that you are waiting for your youngest Labrador bitch's test reults.  According to your comment of outcome and hoping for a '0 - zero' ED score, does that mean you will breed her to this 'over populated Labrador Retriever Breed'?  Just Curious that you have highlighted the tests you would guage acceptable breeding decisions on.  Funny but they are the ones the KC Combi Breed includes now.  The tests I have recently applied to 2 possible new breeding guys,

To my mind bundles of tests are the answer as long as they are affordable. If you don't me asking what did you pay for this bundle ?

"Of course if I hadn't got a clear for everything, I'd look at the condition and go from there"

I completely agree. Test for everything even if there are currently no known problems in the breed.

You have picked 5 conditions which you feel are important. I would hazard a quess some breeders might be less bothered with SD2 than you are and it is the edge cases where the problems of hard and fast rules arise. For example there is probably someone out there that thinks that Labrador Obesity Susceptibility is a big deal (I am fairly sure one of my dogs is affected for that condition )

Not in any post have I described Labrador retrievers as 'over populated'.

My point re the tests, is, if they offered a test for the 5 main conditions, that's what I'd test for, as it happens, the bundle includes for over 150 conditions, many of which aren't even relevant to Labradors, so I would look at the results for the 5 main conditions, and go from there. 

SD2 is more prevalent in working lines, so I didn't even think for a minute it would crop up in the pedigree of my girls, but still worth showing that your lines are clear.  It's not necessarily a life limiting condition, but the possibility of a dog with a physical deformity that 'could' be life limiting, is an important one to avoid in my books.