I have 2 bitches that are both quite dominant but have only ever had one real fight that didn't stop when I shouted. However one of these bitches is 5 weeks pregnant and there seems to be increasing animosity between them. They had a spat to day but broke it up when I shouted. Having read in the book of the bitch that fighting is a major cause of reabsorption I have been keeping them seperate when I'm not there. Has anyone got experience of a bitch reabsorbing due to fighting? I'm getting paranoid about this.

Hi There,
I dont know what breed you have, But mine are westies, I have one bitch, That becomes very hormonal, During her season, And whilst pregnant, She goads my other in to a small scrap, Shouting is normally enough to stop them, I only seperate them, When Iam not home, My bitch has never reabsorbed a litter, In all honesty I think I worry more than she does.
I think with my bitch, Its just a mad rush of hormones, That she has trouble controlling, As after they have had a scrap, They always end up sleeping together.
Bliss.

Yes please be very careful, I had a bitch have a fight when 3 weeks in whelp, only to have her pups, at full term, 3 of the 4 had their insides hanging out at birth, had to be pts. Spoke to a geneticist who had told me that a fight during pregnancy can lead to abnormalities in the pups.
I am always very careful with pregnant bitches, it can spark off jealousy between them.

I hadn't heard of it causing abnormality but I think (hope!) I'm past that stage which according to the BOTB is 3 1/2 to 5 wks for problems causing abnormality. I don't know what else I can do to keep them apart when I'm with them because I would need to send one of them out of the room which seems a little unfair.

you could try putting a cage up and having them take turns in there, or if your really lucky one mighttake to it and want to use it

I think 5 weeks is too late for absorbtion & you are more likely to get an abortion at this stage. Keeping them apart can make it worse as should they accidentally get near each other after a time apart, the fight is likely to be much much worse. I would try to keep an eye on them & praps not leave them together unsupervised thats all.

Thanks for the advice. I hope she is too late to absorb. I guess Ill just have to be even more careful at watching them and make sure they snuggle up on seperate chairs!

I believe 42/43 days( 6 weeksish) after conception is the latest for re absorbtion.

you are so right WL.
Alice had puppies at five weeks and nothing there at six weeks
.
Mari

I agree Mari mattie was definatly pregnant when scanned at 5 and a half weeks then they re absorbed.

Bitches are the worst for fighting up to getting one particular bitch I had never seen a fight between bitches but when I did I was shocked rigid and it was always around seasons or at one time when she was pegnant and she completely lost it nothing I could do would stop the fight ! it took three large adults to split them up ! and the trouble is bitches never forget ever and you cant see what triggers it off either.
I would play safe in this case and put one in a boarding kennel for the short time left if possible or get a relative to care for the dog.
A friend of mine had two jack russel bitches who regularly had fights the only way to split them up was to throw them both in the horse trough! and eventually the Labrador bitch got so fed up with being attacked by one of the JRs that she retaliated and killed the JR and prompted the normally placid lab had to be rehoused.
Female dogs are very difficult to fathom if they are inclined to fight .

I can't board her as she hasn't had Kennel cough vaccine. I could beg favour off friend as it's only until wednesday now but only friend i'd ask is out at work all day. I'll have to see what I can work out. Thanks for the advice.

How are you going to manage when your bitch has her pups crazicrest? If they are fighting now, it will be much worse when she has a litter, maternal instinct takes over, even the most placid of females will not accept other dogs by their new born pups, she will need to be kept right away from your other bitch to nurse her puppies.

My bitch is going to have her whelping box in the spare bedroom. I anticpate them being there until 2-3 weeks old. Then I plan to set up a puppy pen in the family room. This will have high sides so the other dogs can't get in. I guess I'll have to put a chair or something in it so mum can escape the pups when she wants to. How does that sound? It's my first litter so I'm trying to plan but I may be being unrealistic. What do you think?

I have kennels for my dogs, but pups are born and kept in the house until 4-5 weeks old, when weaned they are put into a puppy kennel which is seperate from the others, mum is still vigilant about guarding her pups from the others even then. I would get your pregnant bitch used to her whelping room as soon as possible, dont let any of the other dogs in there to leave their scent, she must feel safe and secure in there. Depending how she feels with the other dogs being around her pups when they are 4-5 weeks, you can move them to the family room, I would suggest having a large cage, so you know they are safe really,when mum is away from them.

She's already ok being in the spare room my problem will be keeping her off the bed and in the whelping box! I can leave her in this room for 4/5 weeks but I'm concerned that they shouldn't be in such a quiet environment for such a long time. I thought they should get used to the hustle + bustle of family life. I guess you're saying quiet is ok?

Not all kennels insist on kennel cough vaxx after all its a complete nonsense as there are so many strains of the disease complete waste of time if you ask me

this is not an ideal situation did you think it all out beforehand? but never the less we will advise as much as we can keep us informed

Of course I thought it out before hand! What do all you "experts" do? send a young dog of 18 months that has always lived in a pack to kennels for 3 months? Pass it off to friends for 3 months? Shut them in kennels outside for 3 months? or are all your dogs so perfect you don't have conflict?

I find your remark offensive.

sorry you find it offensive so whats the problem then ?you cant have it both ways you ask for advice I gave it it offends so I wont bother again in my opinion you are courting trouble with two fighting bitches and no alternative accomodation I feel its a recipe for disaster.
Pack animals will act just as that common sense says so. I thought you were trying to help your bitch and her pups obviously not so I wont waste anymore time on this

I'm afraid saying "this is not an ideal situation did you think it all out beforehand? " is not advise but criticism.

I appreciate you will not reply to my posts in future. I will reciprocate.

During the first 3 weeks, it is feeding and cleaning the pups, contented pups just eat and sleep a lot, they start to intermingle with each other start to play, walk at around 3 weeks, our bitches whelping box is in the dining area of my kitchen, so they do hear the washing machine, TV, hoover, telephone, in fact all the household noises. So I am not saying quiet is best, in your situation though, your bitch needs to be able to care for her litter, without worrying about the other dogs.

I understand where you're coming from and I think you're right. She isn't bothered by any of the others only 1 bitch but I can't expect someone else to look after this bitch for such a long period.

Hi,
My bitches whelp in a pig-railed box beneath a curtained table in the "back room". The mother never allows any of the others to even look in the room for the first week, but by the time the pups are 3 weeks old is quite happy for them to join the pack. Mind you, the rest of them never fight between themselves anyway.

I think I might compromise. Keep mum and pups in spare room but bring them down for short periods at about 3 weeks when "offending bitch" is out of the way. If mum doesn't seem comfortable with this then obviously I wouldn't continue. I guess I'll have to play it by ear.

Have you thought of putting a television, radio or a pre recorded tape recording of household noise so the pups do get used to noise after the first10 day's or so before you move them downstairs into a pen,

I had considered buying one of those pre-recorded tapes because my breed can be quite nervy and socialisation etc is so important. It's on my shopping list for Crufts.

I think I'll leave the radio on in there during the day when I'm not around. Will be company for mum as she's not used to being alone. Mind you I'm sure she'll be too busy with pups to notice.

Mine are similar. First two weeks the bitch has pups in my bedroom, they are then brought down to the kitchen, where mum keeps an eagle eye on them, and the rest respectfully dart past on their way in and out to the garden. By 3 weeks she is allowing them to look at them and sniff them, gradually they come into the puppy pen to have a sniff at the new additions, and gradually Mum is glad for them to be ammused by others, giving her a break.

None of mine quarrel though, but pregnant bitches can be a tad prickly, and any likely conflict areas are avoided, like not allowing others to barge into or past her etc.

I would crate teh other bitch whenever theone with the pups is in the room, and swap them about until new Mum relaxes again. If they were always a bit iffy with each other this may just be the catalyst for permanent dislike.

What breed are they, as this will make practical differences, ie will pens and baby gates be sufficent???

Never bred a litter but would it make the other dogs any less curious if a piece of the pups bedding were introduced to them before the pups to allow the to get used to the smell??or am I being simple!!!
Archer

Hi Archer,
No you're not being simple!!:) The main attraction for the other dogs, with mine anyway, is first, "why is 'xxx' out there on her own and not in with us?" and second "that's a really funny squeaking noise coming from there, what is it?"

Even the vet told his student (who came to observe the dew-clawing) "Never get between a bitch and her new puppies".

A bitch that has a good relationship with her owners will let those people do anything - but other dogs are different! But after two or three weeks have passed the novelty has definitely worn off!

Mine are chinese cresteds so quite small and fairly easy to seperate. My 2 dominant bitches aren't always at each other it's just now and again. As I said originally they have only ever had one real fight which didn't stop when I shouted and even then no skin was broken just lots of screaming by the smaller bitch (which is the one that is pregnant).

To be honest over the last few days the pregnant one has been more subdued although she seems happy enough & is eating etc. She will be six weeks on wednesday. At the moment they are all sleeping in a large pile in the sun including the 2 dominant bitches. I'm not leaving them a lone though and keeping a very close eye.

Hi crazicrest, first of all congrats on the soon to be born crested babies,As for the suggestion someone made about sending the other bitch away that could cause more problems in the long run anyway as when she came back things could be even worse bringing her back into the pack situation ,bitches i find in general can be worse than the males as far as fights are concerned. Just one word of warning, not to frighten you but just be very very careful when the babies are born that the other bitch doesn;t get near them as a friend lost a litter through a bitch getting in with puppies and killing them ,it was totally unexpected and there hadn't been any fights or anything whilst the mother was pregnant it was a hard lesson for my friend to learn and she didn,t make that mistake again.Like i said i haven't told you this to scare you to death just really to let you know this sort of thing can happen and i'd hate for it to happen to anyone else. And as for socializing the pups you are absolutely right our breed really benefits from seeing all sorts of things from a very early age.

Thanks Ace. That's the funny thing she's not an aggresive bitch generally and was infact the first of the pack to greet and play with the new pup I bought just after xmas. It's just a clash of personality. I won't take any chances though these pups will be soo precious as it's my first litter.

How many crested's have you got and are they hairless/puff?

Hi crazicrest, at the moment just the 2 one pp and 1 hairless but fingers crossed the breeder of my hairless dog is expecting a litter shortly and hopefully there will be a nice hairless boy in the litter.

What lines are they from? and do you or are going to show them?

The hairless has debrita on one side and fawncrest and some jokima etc on the other. The pp goes back to razzamatazz pod of staround and aes into dynasty and a bit of moonswift etc ,and yes i do show them.

I have a Moonswift she has Pod in too. I also got another Moonswift pup at xmas. Are you going to Crufts?

yes, are you? are you going to show the new baby?

Yes I'll be there Saturday with no dogs, the only one I qualified this year is my pregnant bitch. I'll be showing my baby if the breeder ever gets around to registering her. She's 5 months and the closing date for WELKS entries is the 12/03. I think I'll have to ask the breeder to enter her in her name. Hopefully her name will be Moonswift Madame Sheba after my old girl who I had pts in October.

Hi crazicrest, hope you had a lovely day at crufts on the sat. also hope you manage to enter your baby ok. i had a pretty good day at crufts my hairless boy got 2nd in spec yearling so was chuffed to bits with him, the pp didn't do anything but he got 2nd last year and you can't win them all.

Yes I got her registered at Crufts including addition of affix and transfer of ownership. So we can go to WELKS after all. Congrats yours was a difficult class.