You asked about no of Litters over 12 months on your original thread not 16 months and many of my New Owners have neen waiting over 12 months on my 'Reserve List'. Pandemic lockdown started March 20. (5 moths ago}

Is 'bollocks' really bad language I just thought it was slang for testicles. Is it ok if we write b*ll*cks instead, or is that still considered bad language?!

Perhaps now is time for everyone to go and re-read the forum Ts & Cs and then make their own mind up as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

https://forum.champdogs.co.uk/terms.html

There are quite a lot of things in the Ts & Cs regarding behaviour which you really should need to ask grown adults to do. However if any of you can truthfully look in the mirror and say that every post you have have ever posted meets all the Ts & Cs you either have a broken mirror, are deluded or a saint !

And if you want something to listen to whilst reading the Ts & Cs try this song :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwtAjv04pt8

> I think if you’ve bred 6 litters in the last 16 months, many of those months being during a pandemic,

What who the heck needs to breed that many litters other than to make money... breeding for the purpose to make money is a puppy farmer to me. Commercial breeding is just jazzing up a puppy farmer. I would never recommend a commercial breeder to anyone, even more so if they don't work or show their dogs. How can you say what you are breeding actually is breeding to yhe standard as best they can or work their dogs to say they are good workers.
There are very few licensed breeders, ie who have more than 3 litters in a 12 month period i would even dream of suggesting.

I was reading on a Lab forum yesterday how a certain breeder wouldn't respond to the owner and the dog in question was still under 12 months old.
A good breeder is there for the dog for their LIFE good and bad, they will take back an older dog too that is beyond breeding age.

>I disagree,

With anything in particular, or just generally?

There are very few licensed breeders, ie who have more than 3 litters in a 12 month period i would even dream of suggesting.

Just to be clear -the limit is 2 litters, not 3, and some councils insist on a license if people sell as much as one single puppy in a year. I personally know two people who have a license as their councils told them they must. One owns a toal of TWO bitches and no dogs and is an AB, the other has four small dogs and has not even bred a litter yet.

Yes i know but the defra wording is 3 or more litters in a 12 month period. We know that some councils have made their own ruling on this, which is ridiculous. The KC only ask for a licence number when the 3rd litter in a 12 month period is put forward for registration.
I know a couple of very good breeders who usually have more than 3 in a year but they are very few and far between and yes they are licenced but also show their dogs and are totally invested in the protection of the breeds in question.

Yes i know but the defra wording is 3 or more litters in a 12 month period.

Yes but that means 3 litters equals a license is needed, not just more than 3.

Yes 3 or more litters in a 12 month period does require a licence. The KC run by this too in line with Defra.

Regarding Bollocks- You obviously haven't read Mark R's post re why sleeping_lion received a ban.  Mark was unable to take the time to go through the obscenities and edit them as there were too many to cover so the whole thread had to be pulled.  The majority of you didn't have the time to see or get involved in the debate - or maybe some of you did and thought it appropriate - who knows? sleeping-lion claimed he had been courteous throught the whole of theoriginal thread which was not the case or the ban would not have happened,  I'll throw the next curve ball.  In fairness to sleeping_lion, he wasn't the only one.  Ann R Smith was horrendous and I have read previous posts from within your group who have commented by post and upvoted several times about how rude she is to newcomers and before you all start posting about naming someone, I actually have kept the mail she sent to me encouraging me to name & shame her.

You say you asked about the last 16 months.  That's not true - you specifically asked about no of litters in the last 12 months (suggest you revisit your post).  You also asked why I would breed litters during a pandemic.  One's understanding to me is that your choice has been made at the time of conception, not the time of birth.  The Pandemic's worst fears were realized in March 2020 so you do the maths as to whether I 'continued' to breed during a pandemic.  Also - you do realize that I am Licenced without commitment to how many litters per year so as I suspect you are now looking to check if I am within the Law, your 'barking'up the wrong tree.

A Licence is required if you have 3 litters in one year

Thought you were against numerous litters in a 12 month period. Friends few and far between maybe.  Some councils do not make their own rulings.  It is agreed by parliament, not by County, so in essence you are questioning each Country within the UK as to whether they are right or wrong if the breeder is not into showing or agility.  When was that part of the criteria within the 'doggie world of Breeders? Not ranting - stating facts which is yourgroup's remit.

You are absolutely right Goldmalu

Some councils do not make their own rulings.  It is agreed by parliament, not by County

Yes but it is a very wellknown fact that the DEFRA wording is not clear enough and therefore various councils have interpreted it in different ways and act accordingly.

Hello Goldmali. So DEFRA started the problem with wrong wording?  Haven't heard that well known fact before. That is worrying because Breeders have to take their directives from their Council Advised Practices. I will watch for updates on this.

You say you asked about the last 16 months.  That's not true - you specifically asked about no of litters in the last 12 months (suggest you revisit your post).

Suggest you revisit as I said ‘about the last year’. So I didn’t specifically ask about the last 12 months.

It’s not quite a year and a half, but if you want to change it to a year and a half, in my opinion they are puppy farmer volumes even without a pandemic making breeding near impossible for quite a while. That’s fine if it’s not your opinion. This discussion is all about how people define it, after all

Many councils have interpreted it differently. Mine have said if I were to have 1 litter every year they would deem that as systematic trading and thus needing a licence. They are aware hobby breeders are very different to commercial and as such have given leeway. Another council area which is within a 5min drive have stated anyone who has 1 litter and sells 1 puppy will need a licence as i called and asked them. I also contacted all the other nearby council areas to see what difference there is and the others are 3 litters in a 12 month period require one. So yes they are all interpreting it differently.
I've also heard of many other differences from other breeders up and down England.
Its down to number of litters and under HMRC whether they deem you a business in terms of amount of monies charged and frequency.

>Many councils have interpreted it differently. Mine have said if I were to have 1 litter every year they would deem that as systematic trading and thus needing a licence. They are aware hobby breeders are very different to commercial and as such have given leeway. Another council area which is within a 5min drive have stated anyone who has 1 litter and sells 1 puppy will need a licence as i called and asked them.

Indeed some interpret it that if a breeder receives £1000 or more from a litter (note, income not profit) then they need to be licenced. Other councils say that for 2 or fewer litters in any 12 month period, no matter how much income they generate you don't need a licence. Yet others consider a financial year (April to April) not January to December. It's a minefield, and everyone needs to check with their own council.

And then we have my council who basically say "We're not quite sure who needs a license or not"!!

You'd have thought that after all this time (very nearly 2 years), all the breeders contacting their councils and DEFRA, the KC and OD contacting DEFRA etc etc, DEFRA would by now have come up with a fool proof definition. But no, although they have updated it several times, it's not helped. I seem to remember David Cavill is running a group that will help people whose councils are being unreasonable, but I can't remember its name.

'What a load of bollocks' was something I thought you said when pointing at a field of castrated male cattle.  Sorry, just trying to inject some levity into the discussion, I'll get my coat......

OMG I can't believe you said that word, GG. If we don't hear from you, we'll assume you're banned for a week

> castrated male cattle

That is Bullocks or Steers

To be fair I think I need some after a previous comment has identified me as the wrong gender.

Ha, ha, Sleeping Lion.  I noticed that too !!!

Maybe I need to notify the NHS, they've sent me a reminder for one of those tests, the 'ooft and shuftie' ones, but perhaps if they realise I'm a man I may not need it.  Although I may need another kind of test

Suejaw - many councils have interpreted things differently:  Systematic Trading has also been something I have questioned in the past as being a loop hole.  Having taken on board lots of comments and started research into pricing of Show Line Puppies, I believe it is something to be questioned. Do you think questioning DEFRA or Local Councils about this would be worth while?  I only ask through longterm interst at how the world of breeding will change

Jeangenie:  Interesting that you highlighted £1000 'income not profit''  Every business in the UK is subject to taxing of 'profit not turnover/income'  by HMRC from April to April.  I totally agree that it is a minefield.  I was lucky I could follow my Council Guidelines from 18th Oct 2018 when requesting Trading Standards to visit my establishment so I was able to stay within the law.  It's so difficult to keep up with advice/recommendations.  Seems an awful lot of 'hobby breeders' are now having to research and instate their Council's Rules & Regulations. Do you believe systematic breeding should be considered?

Tectona:  Your last post :  too many areas to specifiy one.  I didn't have to reply to your original question, however I did. (the previous year's litters).  Is there anyone else on this Forum who guages their breeding year by timing of births in a calendar year for their HMRC returns or should it be conception date?  I ask the question as 'breeding throught a Pandemic' has been questioned by many.  As the Pandemic is anything but over, will we be doing something immoral if we do before COVID is irradicated?

>Is there anyone else on this Forum who guages their breeding year by timing of births in a calendar year for their HMRC returns or should it be conception date?

Litters are only ever counted from birth date.

>Interesting that you highlighted £1000 'income not profit''  Every business in the UK is subject to taxing of 'profit not turnover/income'  by HMRC from April to April.

This page might be of interest to you. Particularly "The guidance document states that those who fall under a threshold of £1,000 of trading income will by default be considered not to be running a business. However, this does not mean that everyone who makes more than £1,000 trading income will be classified as a business and need a licence."

> should it be conception date?

Cant be this, as not all pregnancies are carried full term, so has to be date of birth of a litter..in my opinion

Exactly and I totally agree.  I was asked to justify why a litter was born during the Pandemic so thank you for clarifying your thoughts,

Jeangenie:  Link re what is income and what is profit relating to the £1000 limit for licensing. Thank you for this link - As I stated in previous posts re HMRC's  income & profit definition, If you sell just 1 Puppy from your breeding programme at more than £1000 which I am sure you do, You should have a breeders licence.  If you sell a Puppy at £1000 but only make a profit of £250 you do not need a licence.  Some Councils will report anybody needing to license under the terms of income and have an obigation to report anyone who makes a profit of £250 one single puppy sale and who accumulatively over the financial year makes earnings over the taxation threshold.  If you have a main income then any additional earnings from breeding should be taken into account for taxation and taxed at the highest rate of a secondary income. Just letting the forum know of the diversity involved.

Gender Claification:  I have absolutely no interest in which gender you are.  Strange that you don't post on the GENERAL board though?  You would then be transparent,

I have never hidden anything about my gender, you made an assumption about my gender, possibly from my job, which is pretty sexist really.  Why should I post on a general forum, what do you want me to put, I'm female, and have always been female, have you posted the same just to avoid any confusion?

You assumed I was female when you called me a 'silly woman' Yes...If you want to make this discussion into an issue, keep posting.  at the point of rediculous

I knew your name was Elaine Duffield, so yes, I assumed Elaine was a female.

I actually posted my kennel affix which has my name, but you still assumed I was male, and yet you are still trying to say you're right.

It’s probably pretty safe to assume someone called Elaine or Lainey is female.

I don’t think I’ve ever met a man called Elaine.

maybe you should open your eyes to the world as it is 2020 with Bi, Lesbian, Trans etc

Are you now accusing me of being Bi, Lesbian or Trans?

Because if you are then that's a serious accusation, I laughed off the previous assumption about my gender but I am not willing to let this one go.

Sexual preference has nothing to do with gender. Don’t assume anything.

> maybe you should open your eyes to the world as it is 2020 with Bi, Lesbian, Trans etc

Apparently not female engineers though?

> Apparently not female engineers though?

Livid, have spent my life and working life fighting sexism, to get someone who assumes I'm a man, and then tries to wash it off is absolutely not on.

I wasn’t going to join in but come ON, how could inferring that somebody is LBGTQ+ of any kind be an ACCUSATION?

That's not the assumption made, the assumption is that I'm a man

Edited to add, and then tried to defend their assumption with extra definitions, none of which have anything to do with me

Yet you said that being called a lesbian, bi or trans is a "serious accusation".  You cannot be accused of something that isn't wrong.

Are you being provocative? 

I never said anything was wrong with being Lesbian bi or trans, I stated that accusing me of a particular gender or making assumptions about my gender or anything personal was wrong.

> I wasn’t going to join in but come ON, how could inferring that somebody is LBGTQ+ of any kind be an ACCUSATION?

I think that when a female is in a male-dominated career and has experienced so much sexism as a result, the implication that they are trans feels like an extension of that sexism. “Real women can’t be railway engineers, so she must be trans, or lesbian, or otherwise different”.

Cis women can be engineers, just like gay women or straight trans men, or asexual non-binary people. And trans women are real women.

I have to say, I put up with predjudice on a regular basis being a woman in a male dominated field, but some of the posts on here recently have really shown to me how sexist and blinkered some people are.  Yes, I am a railways engineer, and a woman, I am due to spend tomorrow in a MEWP about 10m up, as well undertaking as ground level examinations.  Some people need to think about their perceptions of what the role of women is in modern society.