Hi all
I’m new here and new to breeding
I have two champion havanais and my dam is about 37 days into pregnancy
She has started to jump and run less as her belly grows
But my concern is, she is incredibly attached to me, follows me absolutely everywhere and I’m concerned that once she has whelped she won’t want to stay with the pups as she will want to be with me
I read I should sleep by them all anyway but is my concern valid or will Mother Nature make her an attentive mum?
Thanks!

That's rather in the lap of the gods.  She may prove to be an excellent mum - she might not!  Usually the younger the mum, the less likely they are to settle.  Hence the saying that puppies should never be having puppies!!

With our bitches, we had a 'whelping room' where all the others were banned from and in which she was sleeping for a few weeks ahead of her due date, so she was familiar with the surroundings.  

We had a cot (or the sofa) to sleep on so she/they wasn't left alone overnight, and usually my sig.other was on night-duties so I at least got a half-decent night's sleep and was fit enough to look after the others during the daytime.   He seemed to be better missing a few hours sleep, than me.   Not to say I didn't get brought in on occasion, if he felt he had a problem, and I don't sleep heavily in any case, so I was always alert to anything abnormal going on.

Some of our girls were more attentive to their brood than others, but normally mother nature kicked in (instinct).   We had one who was a nuisance as she'd go in to feed and clean up but then want out.   The litter settled down fine but she'd sit outside the box whining at them, waking them all up .  That one would have nothing to do with poohing them either (way beneath madam) although peeing was ok.   How that litter survived the early days I don't know - they were quite uncomfortable despite my best efforts with that - even sitting them in warm water!!  She only had the one litter before being retired and spayed, but she did leave me with two super puppies going forward, one producing my Canadian-bred girl who took her UK title on our return from Canada.

Wishing you well with your upcoming litter!!

My own girl wouldn't stay with her puppy. I slept down on the sofa by the box the whole time (as did she) and made sure the first 3 weeks she wasn't on her own. I took time off work and had a friend come stay over so it wasn't hard for us to manage. She would either go in to feed and sort the puppy then come straight back out or I'd bring him out to her to feed on the sofa. He was a huge fat puppy so he was getting enough. I had the box in the living room as that's where I spend most of my time in the house.

You should be sleeping by the whelping box for probably the first 3 weeks anyway, so it matters not...

Yes, many bitches are torn between their attachment to us and their maternal instincts.

I found that staying with the bitch, meant she could concentrate on her responsibilities. Of course it also means you can ensure pups welfare, rescue pups in danger of being laid on, ensuring weaker pups get onto milk bar etc.

I would sit by whelping box with a book, so as not to be intrusive.

That would be a big book :-)
so when I’m ‘sleeping ‘ by the whelping box, do I actually have to stay awake the whole night ?
This is my first litter of canine and with feline I never slept with them

I start bedding down next to the whelping box when they look like they're about to pop, and then for the first two weeks at least; my last litter a good friend who used to breed lent me a monitor with a camera and a big screen, so I could at least move to the sofa instead of sleeping in the fire place (maybe I was Cinderella in a past life) next to the whelping box.  My bitch is very attached to me, she likes to curl up on my lap (Labrador) and if I sit on the sofa at all she's always up there with me, and her daughter is proving to be a similar character.  She was an exceptional mum, as was her mum who I still have, now 14 and still loves a cuddle as well.  But it is, as said in a previous post, in the lap of the Gods, some bitches just don't want to know, or aren't very careful with their pups.

Definitely stay with them day and night. I work from home and my desk is about 18" away from the whelping box and my bed is the other side of the box. I sleep there until the puppies have gone at 8-9 weeks. It's important because if something goes wrong it can happen very quickly. As an example, a bitch of mine with a 12 day old litter started to develop tremors; at 10.30pm she was absolutely fine and less than an hour later I was calling an OOH service and on my way. I would have lost her if I'd been upstairs with the rest of my dogs.

Incidentally, as I am on my own all my dogs (all the same breed) are with us in the same room--last time it was 4 dogs, another adult bitch and a puppy bitch, none of whom are crated. I have a 1400x1400mm box (I designed the box to make sure it was big enough for me to get into) and build a tent over the top of the box to give the dam and her litter privacy and they all manage really well--there were no arguments, no stress (the dam even took the 5 month old bitch puppy into the box as her apprentice nursemaid) and the puppies never knew life without being part of a crowd. I am not recommending this, by the way, just mentioning it to say it can be done if need be--just stay calm, think it through so you have what you need ready to hand.

Thanks.. I built a whelping box this weekend, it’s 1400x1400 too and I made a roof for part of it too so it’s a bit more private for feeding
This box is now in my office (also WFH) and I’ll sleep there for some weeks
Just super nervous that if I fall asleep something could go bad
I bought a bumper that normally goes in a cot instead of putting a pig rail in the box as my dam is so small - do you think that’s ok?

I don't use pig rails, I don't like the thought of a pup resting up against them and getting trapped.  Trust me, you don't sleep properly with pups on the ground, you do sleep with one eye open.

I wouldn't use a cot bumper unless you lie it flat under your vetbed to create a shallow bowl. I don't use pig rails but use cushions or folded towels under under vet bed to create a dip--then there's no way a puppy can get caught against the wall of the box

How I’m going to hold down my day job like a zombie I don’t know! But the pups and my girl are my priority

I also read that the dad should not be allowed near them for 3 weeks, is this the case even if the dad lives in the house and sleeps with the Bitch every night? (All vaccine are fully  up to date)
I just don’t like the idea of shutting the door with dad on the other side wondering what he has done wrong ..

I would get a stair-gate up, so dad can see you but not reach you. Yes, he has to deal with that.

>so when I’m ‘sleeping ‘ by the whelping box, do I actually have to stay awake the whole night ?

No, but you will be woken up by unusual squeaking of a trapped puppy hopefully - and every now and again you will open your eyes, see all is well, and be able to go back to sleep again.

After the first week, mum might want to sleep outside the box and just go in to feed and then come out to sleep with you (or on a bed by your bed). As long as pups are gaining weight, that's fine.

> How I’m going to hold down my day job like a zombie I don’t know

That's why people who work, take holiday when the pups are first born, for 2 or 3 weeks at least!!

I have, as I have recently mentioned, been breeding the Coton de Tuléar for 25 years and have raised a great many litters.  I say the name of the breed because, as I have also recently written, I have stopped breeding and have no need to advertise. 

The coton is the same size as the havanaise, both members of the bichon family.  I think there is something to be considered regarding the difference in size of our puppies and puppies of far larger breeds.  In all my years of breeding I never EVER had a puppy squished between Mum and the wall of their enclosure.  Every litter was always in my venerable "box" (British-made) for the first 3 weeks.  I have gotten rid of it now, as I have no more need for it, and it was getting really tired and of no use to anyone else either.  The box had to be dismantled for storage and then put together again for each litter, sterilising each part of it underway..  It had two sections (with a little divider about six inches high), so that Mum could get away from the pups, and also where I could put her water and her food.  The mothers always LOVED being fed in the box, and I loved pampering them that way.  For the first week or two, I covered the open parts of the box (the exit and the lids) with blankets, so that Mum had total privacy and the pups total safety.  No issues about Dad.  NO ONE could get to the pups.  They were also protected from draughts, cold and everything else.  I slept in my own bed, within hearing distance of the box.  If it was Mum's first litter, then I got up a couple of times in the night to check, but with an experienced mother, it just wasn't necessary.  The Mums were always extremely careful not to step or lie on any puppy.  If a puppy "got lost" (on the wrong side of Mum), it's squealing was very audible, and I could always intervene and solve the problem.  Please don't think I am advocating carelessness.  Anything but!!  However, I'm not convinced that it is truly necessary to sleep next to the puppies on a bed of thorns and beat oneself with sticks for the first 3 weeks of their lives, as long as one is within hearing distance and maintains total awareness.

Thank you so much for your feedback, it’s great to hear from someone with a love of the bichon family
It’s my first, and my girls first, hence my nervousness
On top of having recently moved from CH to FR and trying to get all of the SCC admin in place with my new address!
Visit to the vets on Friday for the X-ray but my love is getting visibly uncomfortable and her pace of chasing dad has slowed dramatically

Going back to working, if you can get helpers in the earlier weeks, it's much easier for them, all you have to do is supervise and make sure they know to pull pups out if mum is a bit clumsy.  I tend to take time off when they are more mobile and need a lot more close supervision, mum does everything until you start weaning, and that's when it becomes a lot more work for you.

>I don't use pig rails, I don't like the thought of a pup resting up against them and getting trapped.

I don't either. I am too concerned about a puppy getting stuck or smothering.  I've never found it necessary.  And I use only vetbed for the bottom of the box, no beds or anything in which a puppy could smother.  Don't forget, bichon puppies weigh between around 180g to 250g, so that's pretty small!  And the mums are very careful.  At least mine have always been.

As to the birth, it takes place right in my livingroom, with all my other dogs (5 of them) looking on! This is because they all know what is happening and are very respectful, keeping their curiosity under control , as they know they must.  If I were you, I'd let Dad look on, if he is willing to be reasonable.  I have two males, and they just say "Oh, she's going to have puppies!  Wow!"

I have a large dog bed, which I call the birthing bed.  I lay a large, flannel sheet (folded several times to fit) in it.  Nothing else.  It's easier for Mum if she doesn't have to deal with cushions or bulky bedding.  Just a flat surface is best.  And easier for you, as she will be scratching around and messing everything up.  You can just try to flatten it out again and again.  I use old-fashioned diapers as well, changing them to keep the sheet under Mum and the newborns clean and dry as they are born.

As to being "nervous":  Who isn't??  :-)

>As to the birth, it takes place right in my livingroom, with all my other dogs (5 of them) looking on! This is because they all know what is happening and are very respectful, keeping their curiosity under control , as they know they must.  If I were you, I'd let Dad look on, if he is willing to be reasonable.  I have two males, and they just say "Oh, she's going to have puppies!  Wow!"

I would just like to clarify that I live alone.  So it is only my dogs and I who are "looking on".  No other people!

Just to say again I'd NEVER have dad, or any other household pet IN the whelping room.   Some bitches may tolerate this but most won't and it could lead to a huge fight, or mum actually turning on her puppies in a misguided attempt to 'protect' them.  This is the one time my lot were totally away from our whelping/nursing bitches.   And then there's the question of infection being bought in.   It's simply not necessary - it's not 'happy families.   Our whelping box, the 4 X 4 section stayed in the whelping room until the puppies were up and moving around at which time it was moved into the kitchen and the second 4 X 4 section added.   And yes, the first section had pig rails round 3 sides.   Having that has saved the life of at least one puppy.

The thing I’m most concerned with is whether my girl can birth naturally, she is rather small at 5kilo and was tiny as a puppy herself, and the dad is 8 kilo and was a big puppy
I’m worried the pups will be too big for her pelvis but I’ll ask the vet tomorrow to see his advice
My two sleep together and get anxious when apart, so if I keep dad away I’m concerned mum will be in an anxious state about where her man is rather than looking after pups
All in all I’m worried about just about everything

It is a worry, and it doesn't ease off until well past whelping and pups are pretty big. 

Where I have had my whelping pen previously (it may change if I get an extension done in the next couple of years) is in the kitchen, in a nice quiet corner where there's power as well for the heat mat and any thing else I need.  I set up a whelping box with a good size puppy pen around, and had that pen up from the day I set it up.  I have 5 dogs currently, and they were all used to the pen and the whelping box, and kept out of the way.  I've not had a problem with my bitches, they are all pretty close, but they know during whelping to keep out of the way and I don't need to shut them out of the way at all.

I know very well how you feel.  I don't think there is ever a birth without fear and worry.  What I did for years was to have an experienced friend with me.  And my vet has always been on call.  He has to sign in blood that he will be reachable!  I let him know when the temperature drops, and from then on, he's in the background in case something goes amiss.  As to whether "Dad" should be present, I'd say go with what makes your girl feel best.  You'll know right away if she objects, in which case I wouldn't push it.  Naturally I do not allow the "onlookers" I've mentioned to be in physical contact with Mum or her birthing bed or anything else.  They are allowed to watch and nothing more.  They are permitted to be in the same room.  But this only as long as each one behaves.  I don't put up with any bad behavior.  In my experience, it seems to create and maintain an atmosphere of normality for everyone instead of the tension which is created by shutting some of them out, creating frustration and protest.  I've found this far harder on Mum than just allowing them to be present.

>The thing I’m most concerned with is whether my girl can birth naturally, she is rather small at 5kilo and was tiny as a puppy herself, and the dad is 8 kilo and was a big puppy  I’m worried the pups will be too big for her pelvis but I’ll ask the vet tomorrow to see his advice

The size of Mum and Dad do not necessarily determine the size of the pups.  I have a rather small female who has produced pups of 300g, just amazing!  I have never had, in all my years of breeding cotons, a puppy whose head was too big to pass through the cervix.  I've had some that I had to basically PULL out, but I've never lost a puppy due to birthing problems.  The coton and the havanese are VERY similar.  Try not to panic (I'm REALLY good at panic!), but instead to have a little faith in mother nature until and unless you are convinced that something is not right.  This can be the failure of the big contractions to commence, known as secondary inertia.  But be sure to give enough time before jumping to conclusions.  An experienced mentor is invaluable, as is, of course, your trusted vet on call.

That’s the thing.. I’m in a foreign country (have lived in CH for 10 years and had a great vet) and I’m now in a new area in FR with small vets and the closest one I can find with surgery possibilities plus English speaking is a good 20 mins away
The vet she was previously with gave me their emergency number which never gets answered.. that gave me no faith in her being available in case of a real trouble !
I also have not got any friends who have any experience in breeding or even witnessing a birth of animals so I’m really all alone in this
I love my girl with all my heart and I hate to think of her getting in trouble and me not being competent enough to help her
I don’t know where in CH you live but if you know of anyone please do recommend! I’m willing to pay whatever to keep my girl safe
Thanks !

Me again :-)
I’m wondering if any of you usually get your bitch groomed? Or is it too stressful ? She hates being dirty and I therefore wanted to get her clipped around the back end
What do you think ? She is now 48 days in..

probably least stressful to trim her trouser area yourself.

> probably least stressful to trim her trouser area yourself.

I'd agree and I'm always conscious of the risk of infection which obviously you don't want with a pregnant bitch.

My lot tended to go into secondary inertia (ouch mum - you 'put them in there', now you get them out).   When my bitches started (contractions) I'd phone my vet so if I needed them at any stage, they were ready.    I too had to go it alone with our first litter, when out in Canada.   I'd never seen a bitch whelp before.

Yes you should trim her as routine yourself. I know larger breeds with feathered tails whose owners wrap/bandage the tail up to keep it clean...

Ok thanks everyone
Should I be able to see movement in the belly by now?.. she won’t lie on her back too long (I guess it’s uncomfortable ) but I certainly don’t see movement
The vet told me that if that if anything was wrong she would not be so well and active but I’ve heard of horrors of babies dying and nothing happening

She doesn't need to lie on her back, just relaxed on her side. If it's a very small litter you might not see any movement, but with my breed you expect to feel the first flutterings at about 7 weeks, and by full term the belly can be bubbling like pan of porridge as the whelps all squirm.

If she's got long hair, you might not see the movements...

Your breed looks a tad bigger than mine..
her belly is truly enormous but I don’t see anything going on.. maybe day 48 is too early..

Hi Eli,

Don't necessarily assume that you will SEE the movements.  What you want to do is to FEEL them.  Sometimes I have not been able to achieve this until almost the last week of pregnancy.  Especially if it is a small litter (2 or 3 pups).   If her belly becomes really distended and is shaved closely, then you can see the puppies' movements easily.

Shave her tummy so that the teats are free of hair.  I'm not very good with a shaver, so I just use scissors, VERY carefully.  I wouldn't worry about the back end too much.  Nevertheless, I do like to cut away some of the hair, just so I can see better when the pups emerge.  I also like to take photos of the puppies coming out, if the situation permits.

You should see kicking going on by around week 7 .... lying on her side too.  Unless there are a lot of puppies, when internal movement may be 'restricted'  

Don't bother too much with shaving around the teats - making it rough/scratchy for the puppy faces.   Mine used to lose fur around the teats naturally.

Since my breed has hair not fur, even shaved areas are as soft as baby skin so it’s ok

That's absolutely true.  Same for my cotons.  Null problemo.

Try putting the entire palm of your hand gently over her belly (or under her belly, depending on whether she's on her tummy or on her back).  Leave it there a LONG time, like 10 minutes or so.  Don't move it.  Don't press. Then you may feel a gentle, little "poke" somewhere on your hand.  Sometimes you really have to wait for it.  It will be a tiny movement which you will recognise as being made by someone other than your bitch or yourself!

>she won’t lie on her back too long (I guess it’s uncomfortable )

Your little bitch won't lie on her back readily not so much because she's uncomfortable, but because most dogs feel vulnerable on their backs.

As to horrors:  We are always aware of them.  I start to panic too when I don't feel the babies moving (at the end of the pregnancy) like I think I should.  A dreadful little voice says:  "Maybe they're all dead!!!"  But they never have been (in 53 litters), and it is indeed very unlikely, at least iin our bichon breeds.

It’s ok! I saw movement in at least 3 distinctively different places just now as she was laying on my lap belly up utterly relaxed
Excited mamma much

Just to update everyone.. as I know it can be frustrating not knowing
We are now day 60 -The last X-ray showed 5 pups! Good size not too small and not too big
They are all super active
Mum has started digging a bit in her bed and hiding in a wardrobe, had a low-ish temp of 37.3 (her usual is 37.9)
She has the squits, didn’t eat brekkie but ate a bit of lunch

Now playing the waiting game

:(

X-rays are not a good idea unless there's a medical problem which means you really need to see what's going on. Doing them routinely isn't advisable:

https://www.avidog.com/how-badly-do-we-need-to-know/

Now I’m confused.. everything I read and got told says you must be aware of how many pups so to know when she is finished.. only way to know that is X-ray
My vet advised the same..

I only went for x-ray if the bitch had gone over by around 2 days from the first mating, with nothing happening.   This to confirm whether or not she was empty.   I would never have repeated x-rays done.   Are you perhaps confusing x-ray with scanning (which I also never bothered doing as it only confirmed or not, a litter at the time of the scan).

Havanais_eli unfortunately vets don't know either. It is quite country-specific as well. For eg - in the UK, very few pregnant dogs are x-rayed. It just isn't done. We don't have higher rates of whelping problems as a result.

In North America and some European countries, almost all dogs are x-rayed if bred responsibly. Other European countries, like the UK - don't x-ray.

Whenever you come across something like this, you need to dig deeper for the science because you can be sure there is some cultural traditional 'we've always done it' non-thinking at play.

As for knowing how many there are - you don't really need to know. There can be a whelping pause of many hours, and in a very large litter the bitch can even go to sleep before then whelping a couple more the next day. Rushing to the vet and getting a c-section because your x-ray has worried you there are more, is non-ideal. You will know if a bitch is in trouble, she will be straining and straining and nothing will be appearing or there will be a worryingly coloured discharge, or a puppy will be stuck. In any of these cases, go to the vet. But if the bitch is relaxed and happy and not straining, she is simply taking a break, no matter how many puppies are still to come.

In France it is standard to do it .. my own breeder where I got her (who has many champion dogs ) confirmed to do it
And 3 different gets also told me to do it
As I’m not a vet I take their advice.
I’m  certainly not confusing an echo with an X-ray (the difference is rather obvious to anyone with a brain)
She had an echo after 28 days where she was confirmed to have at least 2
The next vet visit he told an X-ray should be done to confirm number of pups, size of pups in relation to cervix/pelvis size and that there were no blockages of the birth canal
All that sounds rather sensible to me...

Every Xray has risks involved, why do you think pregnant humans are rarely Xrayed?

There is no need for Xraying to obtain puppy numbers, thank goodness it is not standard practice in UK.

GSDs can be very slow whelpers, my friends who have bred HGH working line GSDs for over 20 years, have had bitches who take over 24 hours to whelp, one bitch whelped 4 pups in 12 hours, rested for the next 12 hours & then whelped her other 4 to one mating twice 2 years apart. No rushing off to have the bitch Xrayed in a panic for either litter & all the puppies were fine.

Nice money maker for the vets

I've never needed to x-ray any of mine, and I don't know anyone else who does. Radiation is dangerous for animals as it is for humans, and a fit, healthy, lively bitch is going to need sedation to keep still enough for an x-ray and there's no way I'd want a pregnant bitch sedated unless it was a medical emergency. An ultrasound scan can easily tell you if a bitch is finished if you suspect that there might be another whelp in there.

I think things are done very differently In UK to europe.. in both Swiss and France it’s done as a matter of course
And of course they don’t sedate her for a simple X-ray!! My dog is well behaved and lies calmly when requested to do so

I’m comfortable with having had it done, it puts me on the picture

I see your not in the UK.

I know in many countries they do x-ay in whelp bitches at 6 or 7 weeks once bones have calcified enough to count skulls and spines, and often x-rayvto check they are empty.

In the UK there are pretty strict rules about personel not being close to the patient during X-rays, so that means sedation or anasthesia, which obviously is drastic and in advisable for a pregnant/whelping bitch.

So in the UK most people would be rather horrified at the thought of x-raying.

On the other hand many more vets and private enthusiasts will perform Ultrasound scans for pregnancy diagnosis, and to check after.