Apoligies yes I do know he bigger number is the conclusion...I was answering so many trolls that I mistook one message discussing a score of 3 from BVA.  Sorry!

Lainey Duffield

Brainless has replied thank you with confirmation that she has rehomes in the past

Yes you do hear of things like this with BVA not just sometimes but often in the doggie world ... god help us if the floodgates were opened to mistakes onetwothreefour.  You seem to be advising a second opinion Yes?  How can you look at the EBV scores on the site that has logged the review this blogger has the 'bad score' attached to?  Seems you didn't know PennHip can only assess hip and not elbow scores.

I have copied or retransmitted NOTHING from any blog however if some one reads a blog's responses and then writes about it, that is not breaking conditions

This still doesn't add up so I'll just have to stay confused I think... bored now...

Not surprised you are bored...you've hit a stumbling block.  As a group, you have been like a load of vultures and you should take responsibility for your part in the group trolling.  I have done nothing to you and yet your group have 'beaten me about the head with a stick' re how I started off all these years ago! In fairness - unreasonable digging by Ann R with her ' - holier than thou attitude' of Puppy Farming has created hysteria.  We all learn as time goes on and I have for the last 3 years adhered to every compulsary requirement laid down by KC UK.

I'm bored of the lies actually but you're happy with them so good luck to you

Well what you call lies are what you all made reems of replies to when no sense of timing was taken into consideratiion yet when sanity or reality are attached ... very little dialogue..I will be successful in my quest to out breed genetic problems in my lines meanwhile maybe your fight should be with all these backyard breeders who happily produce puppies today with every conceivable health problem.

Not sure what this latest post has to do with elbow scoring.

You allowed a"friend"to use your identity to obtain "information"that is going to be used in a work of non fiction, that this "friend"is completing.

Then you come along & in the same style of writing try to start up winding people up by trying to defend breeding from the most overbred breed in the country & not fully health testing through"ignorance"until 3 years ago.

As health testing schemes have been around for over 50 years starting in the 1960s & non commercial"hobby"breeders have been actively involved. Commerical breeders like yourself have only recently realised they have to pay lip service to health testing to avoid legal action when their "goods"develop health issues that there are health testing to reduce/prevent.

You bred from him twice & registered 2 litters AFTER he was hip scored, just before you became a responsible breeder 3 years ago. Was he scored BEFORE he came to you & you were unaware of hipscoring ? Or after he came to you & you not yet being "a responsible breeder"used him anyway ?? You also allowed others to use him after he was scored

That hole you & your"friend" have dug is just getting deeper & deeper

unreasonable digging by Ann R with her ' - holier than thou attitude' of Puppy Farming has created hysteria.


Unnreasonable digging ??? Sorry it's all in the public domain, not hard to find information in this cyber age, especially when your"friend"left "clues"to your identity in her posts. One doesn't have to employ an investigator to "out"you as a "commerical dog breeder"nor discover your true identity

I love how it’s “holier than though” to ask someone why they chose to breed dogs with bad scores, or no tests at all, especially when they make a big deal about how they go above and beyond compared to other breeders.

Doing even the tiniest bit of research before choosing to breed a first litter would very quickly show what tests are recommended and/or required.

In the end it’s the dogs I feel sorry for. There are enough labs out there with good hips and elbows who test clear for genetic conditions that there’s no need to be churning out untested litters because the business you use your dogs for isn’t profitable on its own.

I got very confused, with references to me, think I have clarified.

Going back I see that where I state I have 'bred' all my dogs, this refers to the UK accepted use, meaning they are all homebred, not the US use of 'bred' meaning mated/bred from.

For 6 generattions I kept every on of my dogs for life.  It is only in 2018 where I allowed 1 to go to the owners ofher Grandmothers sister who had died, as she was getting depressed with the infighting between her mother and her cousin.   The owner has a Mum in her late 80's an adult bitch was a better option than a puppy they were on my waiting list for.

Last year before moving I allowed the antagonist in the squabbles to go to another elderly owner whose dog had died, on the understanding in both cases that they return to me if anything happens.

I have health screened every one of my dogs as appropriate at that time, starting with hip scoring and eye testing, and then moving onto DNA testing as these became available.  I choose to Elbow Score now, though this is not an issue in my breed, but due to a small gene pool I think it wise to do so.

Sadly I lost my youngest btch a week befe lockdow, and for the first time since 1997 am down to just two oldies, but hope to buy a puppy back from one of my past pups to contuinue into the 9th generation of my breeding line.

Not sure how any of this has to do with the original topic, but I have not been posting regularly for some time, due to the upset. 

I had almost decided to give up the dogs after the two old ones go, but feel I can't, due to the breed in UK needing the support of dedicated enthusiasts. There were just 34 registrations with the KC last year from 8 litters (two of which were singletons).

Well Ann R Smith. I responded in my own writing rather than Jill typing rsponses in order to comply with Champdog terms & conditions, How can Jill's book be a work of fiction if she is using YOUR written comments as material?  labradors being over bred is an opinion of yours - they are one of the most sought after breeds in the UK and demand dictates breeding numbers.  You know I'm a Commercial Breeder so what experience have you had of producing or rearing a Litter of Puppies or what involvement have you had in the Science?  No matter what your response, your tone has been 'finger waving, judgemental & down right rude sometimes driven by supposed superiority. From when I first started out; no comment on the knowledge or understanding gained since.  I don;t need your approval - that's the last thing that concerns me.  All i can say is that I have been guided by KC every step of the way. (take your arguement up with them if you feel their guidelines are wrong). I am not and have never claimed to be part of the ABS Scheme (which some of your group claim to be too full of loopholes anyway) and I agree with them.  Should we go through the vile nasty stance you have taken toward me since I first posted about anything?  The old saying of 'people only make judgement on others as they don't have the courage to judge or fix their own lives' is apparent.
I have produced wonderful litters of puppies and receive credit, updates & photos for such year after year.   What I reply to bloggers re elbow scoring. puppy farming or anything else is none of your business.(bet that remark is hard to swallow!).  Your claim regarding 'giving lip service to testing in order to avoid legal action'. My goodness - ask the Licensing & appointed Vet Inspectors if that is the case... So everyone should go back through guidelines in the 1960's to check whether they should have a litter of Puppies now - not to prevent but REDUCE - sorry I thought you were promoting a guarantee (you really meant try to prevent). You slated me for stating that hip & elbow scoring was only a percentage ratio previously...

My My.. how things have changed!  I allowed transparency when I gave my name which I knew would open up my situation and create debate so what are you on about finding clues...there's never been an issue with who I am and all I have done is given an insight into how Commercial Dog Breeders evolve so when did this 'outing' take place?  You are a woman on a mission' that has never been there.  You were just surprised that the outside world saw how nasty the dog world is now.  CAN I REMIND YOU THAT THE ORIGINAL DEBATE was what constitutes a 'Puppy Farmer' which you have carried onto this blog re Hip & Elbow scoring.

Actually Hoggie your original post in this thread (it’s not a blog and we are not bloggers we are posters...) brought over lots of things from the what constitutes a puppy farm thread so technically you carried it on.

Don't kid yourself poster.  You labelled me unfairly!  You chose to bring them over.  Your 'POSTERS' brought the Puppy Farmer subject to this THREAD... splitting hairs is obviously your 'saving grace'.

that’s actually made me chuckle night!

It shouldn't make you chuckle!  Thought you were serious about ongoing dog welfare? I don't chucke about how things should be moving forward!

How can Jill's book be a work of fiction if she is using YOUR written comments as material



Oh dear I suggest you read my post properly. I wrote

You allowed a"friend"to use your identity to obtain "information"that is going to be used in a work of non fiction, that this "friend"is completing


Over 80,000 Labradors are bred annually only around half being KC registered. They are touted as being the perfect family pet, yet when bite statistics are liked at, guess what, the Labrador is top there too.

The number of Labradors entering rescues is amongst the highest of pedigree breeds too

You know nothing of my professional career & "ASSUME" much. What has hand rearing a litter got to do with science ?

The fact is you breed purely dogs for sale, just as a farmer breeds pigs, cattle, sheep, chickens, turkeys etc etc etc for sale.

Commerical breeders differ from hobby breeders who do not breed purely for profit, research bloodlines, health test & in some cases, like the current hip scoring scheme, initiate changes that bring in better schemes( you will be aware that the KC adopted the GSDL hip scoring scheme in place of their own certificate, breeders letter or fail scheme won't you after your research into removing genetic/ partially genetic health conditions), fund research into genetic conditions etc etc Hobby breeders do not keep dogs to make a profit & most like Barbara(Brainless) breed to improve & keep the breed going.

You move bitches & dogs out when they are done breeding to make room for your next breeding stock. Hobby breeders occasionally rehome dogs for reasons other than needing the kennel space.

I have a friend who also bred Labradors in their case for over 40 years(ill health has ended this sadly). Unlike you they health tested from the outset & only bred from health tested dogs. They produced high quality Labradors, successful show & working dogs. Only breeding when they needed to, maybe 1 litter every 3/4 years, always keeping at least 1 puppy if not more. Their bitches may have had 1 litter or 2 at the most. In one litter there were 2 Sh Chs, did they breed from both, er no, they bred from the bitch with the marginally better hips(0:0 the other was 0:1)& the other bitch went as a pet to a couple who had just lost an old bitch they had got from my friends. How terrible to let an older quality bitch be spayed & end up as a much loved pet, you may think, my friends could have sold her to be bred from or bred from her themselves, could have made good money.

BTW the KC have few rules regarding compulsory health testing & in only two(related)breeds do they refuse to register puppies:- these are the Irish Setter & Irish Red & White Setters. Only genetically clear for CLAD & PRA can be registered. The hobby breeders of these breeds have successfully bred out CLAD & PRA from their breed

Actually Hoggie your original post in this thread (it’s not a blog and we are not bloggers we are posters...) brought over lots of things from the what constitutes a puppy farm thread so technically you carried it on.

Indeed the last post on this elbow thread was 19th of May 2019, until it was resurrected by Hoggie on the 25th of August 2020.

Why would I read your post through Ann?  You have never read any of my posts properly and have been down right nasty without considering my position as a reptable breeder 3/4 years on from my first litters.  You have correctly advised figures on Labrador numbers Bred however the public are now wiser about these non registered Puppies and thankfully have advice on how to guage a Breeder.  If the number of Dogs in care is correct and need rehoming, that makes me very sad but when thay are offered to a new family, are they DNA tested, Hip & Elbow scored? NO!  but the new owners still have to pay for their keep etc during their time in the rehoming centre which equates to hundreds 0f pounds!. When I advise how to access every single bit of info to my 'vetted' potential new owners by email  it's to give clarification of kc registration  health test result confirmation (which they can print off and peruse), weekly pic/video updates, a 20 page dosier Puppy Pack. Initial Insurance & a lifetime of advice is offered, I have a clear picture of my Puppy's life/outlook.  I have nothing but amiable characters in my keep due to having all from tiny Puppies and completely sociaized with humans.domestic noises and an array of other animals on the farm.  I only enquired about you Professional Career when you ASSUMED about mine.  Do you want to hide it or are you transparent like me? I too keep a puppy from the litters I breed (that's how you irradicate genetic issues) I really couldn't care less about you're employment as I have previously posted (Don't care if you work for NASA) just thought it fair that you put yourself out there in this forum to be judged too.  I have 5 of my Guys as Pets in the house now...I had to move two to my brothers because of fighting over bitches and two because they needed peace and their own space at their age (that's what's called uderstanding each of your  girls/boys).   These friends of yours that define 'breeding as they needed to)? wanting a puppy to keep the line .  This is where they are like me!  I keep puppies back too if you'd like to check 'my dogs.on this site.  Just read about your friends breeding Labradors for 40 years until their health problems arose.  Did they give all puppies bred away FOC?  Oh and were they all health tested? COMPULSARY HEALTH TESTING; OF CERTAIN BREEDS?  Not relevant to my Breeds....I chose to follow KC recommendations,

Barbara you DO NOT have to justify your activities regarding your dogs with Hoggie or anyone else for that matter!!

> Thought you were serious about ongoing dog welfare?

Of course I am, that's why I, and everyone else it seems, continue to disagree with you about what you claim to be doing.

> Don't kid yourself poster.  You labelled me unfairly! You chose to bring them over.  Your 'POSTERS' brought the Puppy Farmer subject to this THREAD... splitting hairs is obviously your 'saving grace'.

This is what I found funny, as you know because it is what I replied to, and nowhere in this post do you mention 'ongoing dog welfare'.

As Goldmali said, you started trying to cause controversy on a thread (which is over a year old) and now don't like the responses you're getting. Deja vu anyone?

> You have never read any of my posts properly

And i'm pretty sure we've all read your posts thoroughly (numerous times in my case and probably others) in an attempt to get our heads round the multitude of discrepancies between them.

You wrote that I called your"friends"book a work of fiction, if you had read the post correctly you would have read "NON FICTION"ie a book based on FACTS.

What is your fascination about me working for NASA ? Do they have a veterinary division here in the UK ??

My friends are well respected in the realm of Labrador Retrievers, acknowledged for being in the forefront of health testing & keeping the breed as a multifunctional dog. ALL their adult dogs were/are fully health tested for all available tests. Obviously dogs under minimum age for testing cannot be fully health tested. They kept at least 1 puppy from every litter they bred, do you do that ? If you are licensed for 9 breeding bitches, how do you get round having 18 bitches once the puppies reach puberty ? That's the problem with breeding commercially & keeping a bitch pup from every litter, your numbers increase exponentially.

Breeding & rearing 1 litter every 2/3/4 years doesn't make the money you do, in fact adding in the cost of health testing, stud fees, keeping the bitch from birth to death far out ways the income from it. Unless of course you charge the silly prices being asked by commercial breeders at the moment( local to me unregistered/from untested parents (plus pet breeders)are in the region of £2,000 + for Labradors)

All you are doing is making the hole you have already dug so very much deeper.

The simple fact is you mass produce puppies for money, just the same way farmers do their livestock & instead of being a pig farmer(for example)you are a dog farmer.

You have not been transparent as you allowed the mysterious "Jill" to pretend to be you to get"facts" for some NON FICTION book about dog knows what.

BTW this is NOT a blog & as per the terms & conditions already pointed out, "Jill" will be on dubious legal ground when using information from here.

Still I look forward to her masterpiece being published, could make entertaining reading

You don't read posts correctly either .  Pot & Kettle I believe. re NASA - some of your views highlight someone with their head in outer space. I don't give a flying fig about who your friends are or how well known in certain circles.  Of no relevance  in this thread at all. 
What are you babbling about now re nos. of licensed breeding bitches and where did 18 dogs in total come from? I have never claimed to keep a Puppy from every litter,  You have no idea regarding my turnover - it could only be guess work again on your part and now you've done a U turn about the high costs involved in having a dog from birth to death, something you argued defiantly about.  As for £2k for unregistered, unhealth tested Pups being sold at these disgusting prices.  It is disgusting and you are determined to 'lump' me in with them...I already told you I gave an interview to the local press talking of my upset at these practices of greed and irresponsibility.  There's no hole.  You're just on a mission to have the last word (some things out of context and even more exaggerations to make your point).  Some of you have had to back track when they have been found to have different ways of working or different views depending on the thread.  Jill didn't write on the forum.  I gave the responses and it is none of your business who I let read my posts & responses.  You were upset at being found to be vicious and name calling in written word.  No dubious legal ground - nothing has been copied or transmitted just reading into your vile way of thinking/trawling archive material to give the most negative view of anyone breeding but who have no interest in your inner circle of Veterinary Friends.  I have my own Vet who has been with me for 3 years and who visits regularly to check & treat all of my animals and I have every faith in his advice.  I'm looking forward to Jill's book being published too.  Just a pity she can't name & shame you for your conduct.

PMSL name & shame away you are a commerical dog breeder, whose Kennel name is on dogs bred from an untested bitch & a dog with HD "inherited"by you. That is not a made up fact it's in the public domain on the KC site, along with the details of the dog's other progeny.

You do not like being called a puppy farmer because you consider them to all breed in bad conditions-so be it. However the fact is you breed for money to supplement your other income(s)

So go ahead ring up the Sun & name & shame me for writing FACTS that can be checked. I await your reply without bated breath

Lololololololol

Are you suffering with some sort of memory loss?  You seem to be going round & round in circles trying to keep on an historic path of years back.  You come out with accusations, made up excuses for ignoring the fabulous world of Breeders who are moving forward (you obviously haven't been on my Champdogs page!) I suppose you don't want to read anything good about anybody.  You make wild accusations about money, my dogs existence, licensing infact anything to put a negative spin on.  You then get  pulled out for inconsistencies, ignore them anyway and come away with mad ideas about approaching the Sun Newspaper ... what are you on?

>Going back I see that where I state I have 'bred' all my dogs, this refers to the UK accepted use, meaning they are all homebred, not the US use of 'bred' meaning mated/bred from.

Barbara, I think you've got a good point there; anyone who produces a litter is a breeder, and all the puppies in the litter are dogs they have bred. It doesn't mean they're going to be bred from at any time. I too have bitches here that I've bred, but they will never be bred from; they just live with me, and will for life.

It’s unfortunate that we use “bred” to mean two different things, it can be confusing. I’m not sure what the solution is though, mostly it’s clear through context but it seems that certain people would do better if you spell everything out in little baby words.

It’s unfortunate that we use “bred” to mean two different things, it can be confusing. I’m not sure what the solution is though,

Personally I use the term "home bred" for dogs that I have bred myself, plus in other contexts too eg. "BOB was Smith's home bred dog Verynice Hercules".

It's another time when a term means different things in different countries. Here in the UK 'bred' means 'being born', not 'mated'.

When dogs do stuff we don't like, we look for the reinforcement (which MUST be occurring if the behaviour continues) and we remove it. Frequently that reinforcer is our attention.

I'm so done with Hoggie, I'll be responding likewise. Clearly the 'reinforcement' is people actually bothering to continue to reply and argue with her. I won't be doing this, because it's only reinforcing her behaviour and not leading to any learning on her part.

There is not a single person who has defended her or her breeding practises, which is very unusual; the forum has come together and unanimously condemned them. This is quite unusual as usually there will be people arguing many different positions and supporting any side in an argument. So I think it conclusively demonstrates what we all believe ethical breeding to be and that we are all in agreement on that count, whether or not we can agree what a 'puppy farmer' is...

Absolutely agree onetwothreefour - I shall join you!

Don't know if anyone remembers ...  it was a Monty Python sketch  ........  The Argument Clinic  .... at the time it was only £1 for a short argument and more for a longer one.            perhaps a referral there might be a good idea for this person!

The posts have somewhat gone off topic & are just a to & fro, with posts from Hoggie just carrying on from a previous thread, which I believe admin had to delete!!!

“I’m sorry sir, this is Abuse.”

I love that sketch!

If ever there was a time for the Ignore feature, now is it.

Ok people an old post that has been dragged up and has gone completely off topic. Did you need to wait till I had gone off on my jollies Thread is now locked