Hello, I’ve used these boards for advice for a long time but this is my first post!  We’ve had many successful matings without issue and never experienced this situation.

We are attempting a mating with our maiden female and a proven stud. The stud owners wanted us to board the stud (we’d never done it this way but they usually have). We picked him up on day 10 of our Bitch’s cycle. The first couple days they played and flirted and she did seem to flag and stand and he did a lot of licking. He attempted to mount her a few times but was never near the mark and then she would pretty quickly turn and yelp/snap at him and that was it. After a few days of this they seem to have both lost interest...?  What happened?  She’s not flagging anymore and he’s barely even sniffing at her.

A more experienced breeder I know said that her bitches were always bred much later in their cycle than our attempt was. This breeder friend told me they never even met up with a stud until around day 25! And they never missed with that method. So her advice to me is that my bitch wasn’t ready at day 10-15 and we should try again in a few days.
Also that having the dogs together was not helpful as they got bored of eachother. Is that likely? 

So is it possible that my bitch would flag and allow stud to mount briefly but she would snap because she wasn’t ready?
Could she go back to flagging and stand later on in her cycle?  And would his interest come back then? Did the snapping just completely put the stud dog off so he wouldn’t bother trying anymore?  He does seem pretty timid for a stud.
Thanks, appreciate any advice. This is an odd circumstance to me!

Are you keeping them apart & then bringing them together to mate?

Lexy:
For the most part yes, they have not been together non stop but they have spent a significant amount of time together in general (more than The bitch and stud have in my previous personal experience). 
At first whenever they were let together there was at least some flirting and the half hearted mounting attempts. But after those few days they more so seem like just friendly.

You don't/can't know anything unless you progesterone test. Some maiden bitches WILL jump round and snap at the moment of penetration, partly due to the shock of it. If you have progesterone tested so you know the bitch is ready, you can hold her collar and prevent her from doing this so he can get on with his job... Usually she stops after one or two snarks and then stands there and lets him...

But if you haven't progesterone tested, you've no idea if you should do that or if the timing is totally wrong and you are forcing her when she's not ready.

Progesterone test her...

And yes, if he gets told off, he will be more reluctant to mount in future - which is why you need to know the timing is right if you have a bitch like this and prevent her from putting him off his job...

Onetwothreefour:
Thank you for your response.
We will have to do that next time around then. Never had felt the need to before as things just worked out well naturally. But obviously this gal is throwing us for a loop!

So would you assume at this point that she’s most likely gone over, so we’ve missed it?  It doesn’t seem too likely to me that she will become interested in him again and he, her.

And you’re right, part of me wanted to try holding her when he was so keen but I didn’t want to if she wasn’t ready and I was taking her nips at him as a signal she was not. Next time, testing!

you could test now and know whether she has already gone over or not, if she has the stud can go home.

Agree with the above, many/most maiden bitches (and some experienced) will snap or yelp on penetration or close penetration for obvious reasons - whether they're ready or not.

Honestly it does seem highly unusual that a stud dog owner would leave you to let them try for themselves with no guidence on this as, especially with maidens, correct handling and assisting both dogs during the process is key to keeping them both safe and ensuring a correct tie (which is what you're paying for).

I would ask if they are willing to help handle next time round and if not, might be best looking for another stud.

Ryan:
Yes, I agree. Thank you!

I have to say I've used progesterone testing and wasn't impressed with the results.  A good stud dog owner is more helpful in my experience, although I have very limited experience.

Allowing a stud dog to board with the owner of the bitch is, I suggest, highly unusual.    It would have been way better the other way round, for starters.   IF the dog is experienced, his reaction to the situation would, for me, always be the best indicator of at what stage the bitch is at.    Mine would very often not be interested if a second mating was attempted - they seem to know they've done the job (probably by the scent she's then giving off).  

Who better to handle her stud dog than THE OWNER fgs.   You might have had a mating the first time he was put to her!!   And as the owner of two males I had at public stud, I'd have wanted to be right there with each mating!!

I'm a firm believer of what will be, will be and if this ends up with no mating, you may have escaped a problem.

>So would you assume at this point that she’s most likely gone over, so we’ve missed it?  It doesn’t seem too likely to me that she will become interested in him again and he, her.

Not necessarily - because the other explanation is you were trying too early, and the stud dog was trying his luck to see if she would let him. Now he knows he won't be allowed to mate early, he may be biding his time. It is often the case that the dogs can be completely disinterested until the bitch is fertile and then they are suddenly raring to go. And indeed, some successful matings happen as late as day 28 even. (I think someone on the forum here had one then.)

But I'd also agree that giving you the stud dog to manage all this is very weird. When you pay a stud fee, you're paying for the service as much as anything - that's not just the semen(!) but the management of the mating and the dogs. Giving you the stud seems very irresponsible and careless for him as well - studs can be injured during mating if not managed and they can't assume that all bitch owners are going to know how to manage things.

Furthermore, studs usually feel more confident on their own territory and they also come to associate a particular routine with a girl coming to visit. Ie - getting put in the utility room whilst the girl has a look round, coming out and smelling her pee in the garden, then being introduced to her... it all works as psychological foreplay and communicates to him what's expected so that when he meets her, it can be a bit like a bull in a china shop and that tends to overcome any telling off a bitch might try to do - he is so uber-confident by then.

In a different environment, that whole routine isn't going to be possible and he won't feel as confident away from his familiar home. Especially if he is timid anyway, as you say.

So it's very unusual all round for the stud owner to do this... It would be better for them to board your bitch rather than the other way round.

For now, keep trying them together on a daily basis but only for 20mins or so and then separate until the next day - till she goes out of heat. Just in case you were early... OR - as suejaw suggests, go to your vet and get a progesterone run now so you can see where she is in terms of ovulation.

> <br />But I'd also agree that giving you the stud dog to manage all this is very weird. When you pay a stud fee, you're paying for the service as much as anything - that's not just the semen(!) but the management of the mating and the dogs. Giving you the stud seems very irresponsible and careless for him as well - studs can be injured during mating if not managed and they can't assume that all bitch owners are going to know how to manage things. <br />

Can't say better than this!!   Added to which for sure, males generally act better when in familiar surroundings (with a handler they know!!).   And for the record, I'd not want to be using a 'timid dog'.

> Allowing a stud dog to board with the owner of the bitch is, I suggest, highly unusual.

I have had a number of stud dogs stay with me.

It is usually when the studs owner cannot board, or take time off work, often also have another male dog as most dogs live as pets these days, a knowledgeable breeder is often better placed to sort out matings.

I have also hosted both dog and bitch for above reasons and where the studs owner could not be available or because both owners lived at opposite ends of the country.

In my breed it is often that the stud owners are not themselves breeders.

Often breeders like myself only keep bitches, and there are exhibitors who only keep males.