Having come across a brief comment on a board regarding photos being taken at Ch shows and posted online.
What is the feeling of folk on here?

I would have thought that you need the permission of the dog and owner/handler before putting them on the WWW .

But I could be wrong ;) :D

Melody

The copyright of a photo belongs to the photographer, not the subject of the photos.....I wouldn't want my dogs' (or my own - I'm no Supermodel!!:D) pictures published without my knowledge, but that's how it is...:(

Any dog/handler can be photographed at a show and put on the web, however if the photograph is supplied by a professional photographer then it is he/she who owns the copyright and their permission should be sought. I would love to see a site where we could show our dogs off with our own photos.

Hi gibbsy
Some of us have put photo sof our dogs on this site.Feel free to add yours.
http://groups.msn.com/cleoand solo/shoebox.msnw

Tracey :)

I seem to remember some time ago that the KC issued an edit that no one was allowed to photograph anyone at a show execpt for their own use without that person's permission. This was well before the internet got to it's present level but I would imagine the KC rule would still apply.

John

I was just going to say John- I've read somewhere recently about the use of cameras/camcorders being prohibited unless you seek everyone's permission at the show- kc rules! I seem to think it was in a recent schedule

Stacey x x x

Yes, I was right. there is a press release on the KC web site about it.

John

Unfortunately I think this is a case of where the law of the land takes precedence over personal wishes.:(

Tracey,
I found that site, go see a wet Bradley. Now all this fuss about copyright. Lets remember the role of the professional photographer in this. If the photo is good then everybody is pleased and points to it with pride, but if people keep using without permission then photographers will go out of business and hey presto no good photographs any more. I only use my own photographs of my dogs, but there again I used to make a living out of it.

Karen

PS I don't think anyone can stop you taking photographs for your own use of anybody's dogs. If a pro photographer is working in an event without permission then they will be escorted from the venue. This applies to all events not just KC dog shows.

Hi gibbsy
Had a look at your photos ..brilliant , can tell you're a pro :) I could eat your baby boy :D
tRACEY

I disagree Karen...as a professional photographer i WILL NOT go out of business because people use my photos without permission. they get sent the bill and/or taken to the small claims court and I get several thousand pounds per annum because of this. :)

Good for you, but I've even had head studies turn up on a dinner service from Italy! Ever had the owner of a dog (who's photo was used to illustrate the breed standard) send you a bill for using the photograph of his dog!!! Anyway, ill health forced our retirement almost ten years ago now, so it's all water under the bridge.

Karen

I had a lovely photo taken of one of my IGs which was subsequently used on a couple of adverts. I was a bit surprised to find the next year the photo had been used and reproduced as a car sticker!!!! The thing is I didnt buy the copyright at the time. Guess what every one got as presents??

Hi
There's a photograph of one of my females in the exchange and mart every week advertising working gsds..don't know how they got it but it wasn't taken by a pro.I'm not too bothered but it's a bit of a cheek really.
Tracey

well you SHOULD be bothered tracy....if they are using a photo that was taken by someone else...then unless that person has asigned copyright to E&M, they are breaking the law. If ever I find anyone doing it with my photos then I send them the bill & point out that they are a)breaking the law and b) stopping me from making my living. I have got my money out of them everytime!!

Hi Sam
Well that told me didn't it...:D :D LOL
I've got a photo of a female in Exchange and Mart, my Boy has his photo on some coasters, and I don't have a clue where they got the photo s from. I might phone and ask...cos Sam ..I SHOULD be bothered, aint that right :D
Tracey

Talking of photo's being used without permission how did the person with the shar pei go on with ebay?
Alison

Hi Tracey

Exchange and Mart also used some of my photos - one that only appears on my site and also appeared here briefly during the free advanced membership offer. One was by me and the other by a professional photographer. They were very off when I questioned them about it and asked where they got them and said "from a photo library" . I never did find this "?fictional?" photo library but a lot of people had a photo of my undocked male attached to their adverts which I bet upset some of them :)

Christine

Hi Christine
I think I'll give them a ring and find out...????? it's nice that people pick out your dogs for advertising, but bit cheeky.
Maybe I'll get told of this fictional photo library too....mind you this picture is being used by a private advertiser within their advert not by exchange and mart themselves. The plot thickens :D

tRACEY

Hi Tracey

Apparently advertisers get offered photo ads and if they can't send a picture in themselves E&M supply one. I thought to start with that it was the advertisers using my dog's pictures but it was the paper.

Christine

I can feel a law suit coming on....wish they would try doing it to me....they would never know what had hit them!

HI Christine
I am awaiting a call back from E&M..they say they got the picture from a web site called pedigreedogs.com..which you can't get on as it's up for sale...so I've asked who at E and M took the photo from the site and with whose permission.
Edited :
The site that is up for sale who alledgedly gave the permission to E and M to use the photo is up for sale, anybody help with finding out the previous owner ??? if you search for the site it just comes up on one of these domain selling companies.. ???? any ideas.
E and M have said they will now take the photograph from their magazine and also from their library, customer services will be in touch, as there could be comp to pay ??
If they do offer comp, what am I looking for £££ have no idea, they've used the photo for about 18 months now.
Tracey

They don't mean the co.uk site do they?

Snap Lynn! We must have been typing at the same time! :D

:D

Tracey, I don't know if this is helpful. The domain name www.pedigreedogs.com is for sale. However, there is a website at www.pedigreedogs.co.uk and I wondered if you'd tried looking for your photo there. It might just be a case of crossed wires with two similar domain names.

HTH, Monty's Mum :)

If you take a look at the Working Group winners for the May 2001 Cybershow on that site you may seen one with a familar affix :)

I don't think there have ever been a head shot of my male on there though - the E&M just said they would no longer use his photos - would not even give me a free advert :(

Christine

Hi MOntys mum and Lynn

Yes she's ( Gucci )is on that site..thanks guys good thinking :D
tRACEY

HI sam,

I am not disgreeing with you so making this point now :-)

I just wondered what grounds you used on your successful claims and was it mags etc that used your pictures, what about websites ?? I am just trying to see where the case comes from re the lose sustained if you get my drift..

Just being a little nosey you don't have to answer if you don't want to..

BFN Pam

I have found pictures of one of my bitches on the net one taken at Crufts and one at a breed club show. They were taken by someone in the breed and she took pics of all the winners. I wasn't overly pleased though as I'm in one of them and I hate having my pic taken.

My bitches' grandmother has appeared on loads of breed goods and even on russian stamps all without the breeders knowledge. She also found photos of the grandmother and mother in a new book that was published last year. My bitches mum was used as the demonstartion model for the breed standard. Not bad considering she was only ever shown once!

its not the content of the photo thats in question....its the person whot took the photo that owns the rights.

I agree, but the picture with me in it certainly wasn't taken with my permission. It's very difficult to say no if someone asks because they would think that you're saying no to be awkward. If someone takes a photo when your dogs not looking it's best do you really want it plastered over the net? I don't. Fortunately the photographer is very amateur so you can't see very well.

crazicrest....your best way of dealing with it is to contact the person who took the picture & tell them that as you did not sign a "model release form" then they are not allowed to use your photo. this might just frighten them enough to get the picture removed.

Hi Sam ,

Me again.

This is what I was thinking as generally if their is a copyright breach and no real financial lose courts are not interested , more so when it was done in innocence but just wondering.. I am a wonderer..

Pam

Have you seen rule `33` in the Crufts schedule,it takes up more space than any other rule.....all about
photography and video rights.

With regards to rule 33 in the Crufts schedule you cannot stop joe public from taking whatever photographs they want. I will be taking most of the class winners in my breed to look at when I get home. They will not be taken for gain or reward and therefore I will not be in breach of rule 33. I have taken many hundreds of general photographs at various events around the country for various publications, the copyright is then passed on to those publications so they may be used in the future, its part and parcel of the freedom of the press. If this did not exist then our newspapers would be just the written word. The best course of action would be to ask E and M politely to remove your dog from any future publications, but in law I do not think they would have to.

Karen

I disagree Gibbsy. You do not have to sell (assign) the copy right to your photos. Some publications will try and get you to sign it over but they have no right to do so and even thoughI sell images to magazines all over the world, I always retain copyright....I never sell it. You only lose your rights to copyright if you are a staff photographer, then the copyright belongs to the employer. Thats why I always work as a freelance!

pam, the general misunderstanding is people thinking that because its a picture of their dog, they own the copyright. Thats not the case, copyright belongs to the photographer not the dog owner. There was a well publicised case not long ago where a man scanned a photo of a GSD and put it on a website without the photographers permision. The photographer found out and won £750 damages . The point is, that by reproducing photos without the photographers permission (and often a repro fee) you are depriving the photographer of his living. I had several cases last year where people had scanned in the proofs I sent them & used them on their websites. I undoubtedly haven't caught up with all of them (yet!) but the ones I have done have received a bill for my loss of earnings and have paid up! There were two exceptions who I succcessfully took to the SCC. For more info try the NUJ website www.londonfreelance.org/c-basics

Hi Sam,

Thanks for that, I fully understand the law behind Copyright.. I think maybe in Scotland we are a little more leniant as it is very hard to prove how much " YOU" (used loosely) the copyright holder has actually lost and this is where alot of trouble comes in.

Copyright being a civil matter can be expensive to chase unless uner small claims but them it is a pain in the butt.. but I guess people don't want to let it happen too often as it will only get worse.

I agree you do have to protect your livelyhood.

Pam.. I will need to check my settings as never got reply..

Just a word of advice from someone who creates graffix & backgrounds etc for the net

You should electronically water mark anything you hold the copyright on that you put on the net before it goes on to the www. This can be done via PSP(Paint Shop Pro)programe & it embeds a code into the photograph etc which can be electronically tracked

I had in the past lots of my work stolen by people right clicking & saving the graffix etc to their docs & then passed off as their own work

The elctronically tagged work can be traced to the ISP & websites then it's a bill & court action etc as well as reporting to the space provider which is some instances has lead to the site being removed from the www

You can get a limited free water marking via PSP & Digimarc

Just a thought :)

I had Sams photo taken at Crufts last year. The pro photographer who took it sent me a copy and a price list to have it enlarged or published. I sent him a letter saying that I would almost pay him not to use it. His photography was fine - Sam was just pulling the weirdest face at him!

I also agree as there is a photo of me and my boy on a breed club web site when he won best pup in show and it's dreadful,I don't mind people taking my dogs photo as long as i'm not in the frame as i too hate my photo taken,but just wish it had been a better pic of him . Still as it was so fuzzy you can't tell whether he was looking his best or not thankgoodness( or me either)I think the same person who took your photo crazicrest was the same one that took mine.

She's not the best photographer is she :D

no she certainly isn,t

do tell chaps....do tell!

One of our breed in the UK found a photo of her dog,taken without her knowledge,was being used on a website in the USA as a type of `logo`.We all recognised the dog,he was a famous rescue dog,made a champion.You have no comeback I think,no copyright on the photo.There are some guidelines put into show schedules these days saying you should ask for the permission of the owner before taking photos.Who will?
Karol

I took my two Alaskan Malamutes to have photo's took at Pet Smart recently. When I went to collect the photo's I was told the film had been stolen !!! A customer took the roll of film, which had been put in a clear bag. Now did he want the photos of his own dog for free ? Or has he the addresses of us some 30 people to come and pinch our dogs ? Or will I see my dogs on the internet or on a postcard without my permission ? I was furious !!! Natasha.